TNG Episode "Darmok"

[TheDarkling]

True enough. Of course, he had to use some of his own "neural subprocessors" to accomplish it, not exactly a common bit of tech in the Federation. I think it's reasonable to assume that Sheliak weapons are already capable of handling the "hyperonic radiation", which means that "neural subprocessor" technology is widely available to them.

Or they commonly operate in such areas and thus equip their weapons with the technology whereas it isn't cost effective for the federation to do so (the Federation later adopts regenerative phasers which solve the radiation problems).

You may want to recall the following exchange from the end of the episode...

GEORDI: Captain, we can do it! We can modify the transporters.
PICARD: Excellent.
GEORDI: It'll take fifteen years, and a research team of a hundred --

This would suggest that 1) the Sheliak may well have transporters capable of operating in the presence of "hyperonic radiation" and 2) that Sheliak transporter technology would therefore be at least 15 years ahead of Federation transporter technology.

I don't read it that way, Geordi says he can do it and it will take 15 years, that doesn't mean anyone who has enhanced their transporters in such a way is 15 years ahead of the Federation just that they had need for transporters in such an environment sooner so they began that process longer ago.

Sensors were also negatively affected, making it impossible to determine how many human colonists were living on Tau Cygna Five. Data couldn't report their numbers until he'd landed on the planet and contacted them.

Fair enough, but the above still applies, the Sheliak may just have the home field advantage (they operate in that sort of environment so have adapted tech to it unlike the feds).

Of course, this "hyperonic radiation" can't be terribly destructive if a poorly equipped colony can quickly find a way to "adapt" to it.

Yet its lethal to humans, althought "terribly destructive" is a relative term I guess.

Another point of Sheliak superiority; apparently they have no trouble understanding and speaking various Federation languages, but the Federation is incapable of translating the Sheliak language.

Reaching a bit aren't we?

[TheDarkling]

Darkling:

You and TedC remember more about that episode than myself. I haven't seen it in 10 years but I remember that the Sheliak acted haughty and Picard&co. had to make a temporary upgrade to their comm system to posture in their negotiations with the Sheliak. Why would Picard need to posture with the Sheliak if the feds were an obvious technological superior of the Sheliak? Thats why I said the Sheliak were seemingly more advanced than the feds.

The Feds often play nice with people they could hammer flat, even when they are at war with them (just see the Cardassian - Fed war for proof of that).

[Ted C]

True enough. Of course, he had to use some of his own "neural subprocessors" to accomplish it, not exactly a common bit of tech in the Federation. I think it's reasonable to assume that Sheliak weapons are already capable of handling the "hyperonic radiation", which means that "neural subprocessor" technology is widely available to them.

Or they commonly operate in such areas and thus equip their weapons with the technology whereas it isn't cost effective for the federation to do so (the Federation later adopts regenerative phasers which solve the radiation problems).

What is your evidence that "regenerative phasers" can operate normally in the presence of "hyperonic radiation". Phasers have a history of being kind of touchy about the environment, so "regenerative" phasers may be designed to operate under some different sort of negative condition.

You may want to recall the following exchange from the end of the episode...

GEORDI: Captain, we can do it! We can modify the transporters.
PICARD: Excellent.
GEORDI: It'll take fifteen years, and a research team of a hundred --

This would suggest that 1) the Sheliak may well have transporters capable of operating in the presence of "hyperonic radiation" and 2) that Sheliak transporter technology would therefore be at least 15 years ahead of Federation transporter technology.

I don't read it that way, Geordi says he can do it and it will take 15 years, that doesn't mean anyone who has enhanced their transporters in such a way is 15 years ahead of the Federation just that they had need for transporters in such an environment sooner so they began that process longer ago.

OK, I'll grant you that one.

Sensors were also negatively affected, making it impossible to determine how many human colonists were living on Tau Cygna Five. Data couldn't report their numbers until he'd landed on the planet and contacted them.

Fair enough, but the above still applies, the Sheliak may just have the home field advantage (they operate in that sort of environment so have adapted tech to it unlike the feds).

Of course, this "hyperonic radiation" can't be terribly destructive if a poorly equipped colony can quickly find a way to "adapt" to it.

Yet its lethal to humans, althought "terribly destructive" is a relative term I guess.

It's lethal to humans, but not very quickly (after all, the colonists had time to "adapt", losing only a third of their population during the process). The Sheliak themselves evidently weren't threatened by it, and there was plenty of native flora and fauna, so it couldn't have been very dangerous.

Another point of Sheliak superiority; apparently they have no trouble understanding and speaking various Federation languages, but the Federation is incapable of translating the Sheliak language.

Reaching a bit aren't we?

What's the stretch? The vaunted Federation Universal Translator completely crapped out on the Sheliak language, but the Sheliak have had no trouble communicating in several Federation languages. This seems to entail a linguistics advantage.

[Darth Servo]

Maybe they don't want to be. They could have advanced technology but don't want to conquer other worlds are expand very much.

Do we have an idea of how much territory they possess?

Trek writers seem to be in love with the idea of Sci-fi civilizations that have massive tech but very little territory. Look at the Praxins or the Cytherians

[TheDarkling]

What is your evidence that "regenerative phasers" can operate normally in the presence of "hyperonic radiation". Phasers have a history of being kind of touchy about the environment, so "regenerative" phasers may be designed to operate under some different sort of negative condition.

Well it is stated that Starfleet went with regenerative phasers instead of the standard gun they came up with because regenerative phasers could also work in the dampening fields and radiation affected areas, either they can work in Hyperonic radiation or their use in such an environment is of no consequence meaning it wasn't worth the effort on Starfleet’s part to produce a weapon to be used there, either way doesn't really matter - Starfleet overcame the problem or they didn't need to unlike the Sheliak.

It's lethal to humans, but not very quickly (after all, the colonists had time to "adapt", losing only a third of their population during the process). The Sheliak themselves evidently weren't threatened by it, and there was plenty of native flora and fauna, so it couldn't have been very dangerous.

The Sheliak aren't humanoid and were thus unaffected by the radiation and Trek radiation is weird to say the least..

What's the stretch? The vaunted Federation Universal Translator completely crapped out on the Sheliak language, but the Sheliak have had no trouble communicating in several Federation languages. This seems to entail a linguistics advantage.

The humans can also communicate in those Federation languages, the UT can't manage the Sheliak language because it is complex, and the Sheliak’s version of the UT can handle English because it is simple.

[MrAnderson]

The humans can also communicate in those Federation languages, the UT can't manage the Sheliak language because it is complex, and the Sheliak’s version of the UT can handle English because it is simple.

You are also assuming the Sheliak want the Federation to be able to speak their language. If a potential enemy cannot speak your language at all it hands incredible layers of security to your society.

[Darth Servo]

The Sheliak aren't humanoid and were thus unaffected by the radiation and Trek radiation is weird to say the least..

What does the shape of one's body have to do with radiation?

[Alyeska]

it is heavily armed to protect itself and its people on board

starfleet is NOT military

Lets see...

Starfleet has a herierchal structure, they have a military bassed rank structure, they train their personel for combat, they have ships that match other cultures warships, they are the front line fighting force of the Federation...

Starfleet has delussions of not being military. They are military in every respect.

[TheDarkling]

The Sheliak aren't humanoid and were thus unaffected by the radiation and Trek radiation is weird to say the least..

What does the shape of one's body have to do with radiation?

When I say non-huamoid I mean something weird like crystal men or sludge creatures, as in not organic.

[Aeolus]

Maybe they don't want to be. They could have advanced technology but don't want to conquer other worlds are expand very much.

Do we have an idea of how much territory they possess?

Trek writers seem to be in love with the idea of Sci-fi civilizations that have massive tech but very little territory. Look at the Praxins or the Cytherians

So true. But just becauce you are advanced does not mean you will be imperialistic. A single system could support a very large, wealthy and advanced society...even 2

[Darth Fanboy]

Maybe they don't want to be. They could have advanced technology but don't want to conquer other worlds are expand very much.

Do we have an idea of how much territory they possess?

Trek writers seem to be in love with the idea of Sci-fi civilizations that have massive tech but very little territory. Look at the Praxins or the Cytherians

So true. But just becauce you are advanced does not mean you will be imperialistic. A single system could support a very large, wealthy and advanced society...even 2

A single system could not support a large society by Trek Standards. Wealthy possibly, advanced maybe.

[Aeolus]

Trek writers seem to be in love with the idea of Sci-fi civilizations that have massive tech but very little territory. Look at the Praxins or the Cytherians

So true. But just becauce you are advanced does not mean you will be imperialistic. A single system could support a very large, wealthy and advanced society...even 2

A single system could not support a large society by Trek Standards. Wealthy possibly, advanced maybe.

you could put 100's of billions in a system with trek tech even trillions. The Federation seems to have lot's of very tiny colonys.

[Darth Fanboy]

you could put 100's of billions in a system with trek tech even trillions. The Federation seems to have lot's of very tiny colonys.

You need to start backing up some of these claims with evidence as opposed to speculation pulled from you ass.

A lot of these Federation colonies you mention are small as opposed to a populated homeworld such as Earth or Vulcan, having but a small fraction of the population. I dont supposed many of these colonies are over 50,000 to 100,000 people.

Even if you are defining a "system" as a solar system as opposed to a planetary system you are still putting huge strains on your infrastructure to deliver necessary supplies and services.

[Darth Servo]

So true. But just becauce you are advanced does not mean you will be imperialistic. A single system could support a very large, wealthy and advanced society...even 2

A single system could not support a large society by Trek Standards. Wealthy possibly, advanced maybe.

you could put 100's of billions in a system with trek tech even trillions. The Federation seems to have lot's of very tiny colonys.

The concept totally disregards the economics of the situation. With everything else being equal, the society with more resources will always advance faster than the society with fewer. Even if I grant you the point about 100's of billions in a system, the nation with 100 systems will STILL have a hundred times the brain power than the nation with only one. Of course the Federation does appear to be run by morons. And why does the presence of a lot of tiny colonys eliminate the possibility of major worlds in the Fed other than Earth?

In Trek, it seems to be just the opposite. The most development is almost always done by the isolationists. I suppose its an offshoot of their "Prime Directive" based thinking. People who don't get involved in the affairs of others are always superior.

[Admiral_K]

Well I think the E-D could have probably won in a straight up fight using photons and phasers.

The E-D attacked first, even with the first Strike and shields up they were all but defeated before their counterattack.

Their purpose was only to disable a scattering field, not to destroy the enemy vessel. I also find it hard to believe they had full shields up. If that were the case how could they beam out the Captain? (granted it has been a while since I saw the episode)

The main problem with TNG was the pathetic military use of the ship. Its not that the technology for destruction wasnt there. They would sit back and let their shields get pounded only firing a shot every now and then. If they opened up with a withering barage of phaser fire and photons they probably could have been much more effective.

The GCS was the premiere Federation Warship of the time when this takes place, and the GCS is still the standard in combat by the time of the Dominion war.

As I said, its not that the technology wasn't there it was its application. If it attacked aggressively using its full armaments it is a very formidable warshap by trek standards. However in most trek shows they fire a few phaser shots, then let themselves get hit 3-4 times and fire again. I know they have better refire rates then that when they want them...

The E-D fires first in order to eliminate the scattering field, then raises full shields, Now the alien vessel knocked out the E-Ds forward shield, hit the nacelle, and reuced srrength in the remaining shields with but a short burst of fire. Enterprise was no match.

You are assuming they can go from no shields to full shields instantaneously. They had to have the shields down at somepoint to beam up the captain. Even so, the Enterprise primary goal was not to eliminate the enemy but to just disable its shields. A full powered blast of phasers and photons may very well have destroyed the Tamarian vessel.

Besides, the pre-dominion war Galaxys weren't much of a warship, relying more on shields than anything else. The Defiants, Sovereigns, refit Galaxys, Akiras etc were much more fearsome.

In Trek Terms, at the time period prior to the Dominion War, the Galaxy Class Ship was one of the most powerful designs in the AQ. Now if you want to substitue an upgraded GCS in this battle then in fairness you should give the other side the same opportunity to upgrade.

[/quote]

I'm not trying to "substitute" anything. Rather demonstrating the fact that the Pre Dom war galaxy is not a fair example of Federation war technology. Remember, that before the Defiant class the standard TNG Federation policy was against having pure warships (a niave notion to say the least). I suppose you could argue that the Tamarian ship might not have been a true "warship" either but that would be arguing unknowns.

[Admiral_K]

Well I think the E-D could have probably won in a straight up fight using photons and phasers.

The E-D attacked first, even with the first Strike and shields up they were all but defeated before their counterattack.

Their purpose was only to disable a scattering field, not to destroy the enemy vessel. I also find it hard to believe they had full shields up. If that were the case how could they beam out the Captain? (granted it has been a while since I saw the episode)

The main problem with TNG was the pathetic military use of the ship. Its not that the technology for destruction wasnt there. They would sit back and let their shields get pounded only firing a shot every now and then. If they opened up with a withering barage of phaser fire and photons they probably could have been much more effective.

The GCS was the premiere Federation Warship of the time when this takes place, and the GCS is still the standard in combat by the time of the Dominion war.

As I said, its not that the technology wasn't there it was its application. If it attacked aggressively using its full armaments it is a very formidable warshap by trek standards. However in most trek shows they fire a few phaser shots, then let themselves get hit 3-4 times and fire again. I know they have better refire rates then that when they want them...

The E-D fires first in order to eliminate the scattering field, then raises full shields, Now the alien vessel knocked out the E-Ds forward shield, hit the nacelle, and reuced srrength in the remaining shields with but a short burst of fire. Enterprise was no match.

You are assuming they can go from no shields to full shields instantaneously. They had to have the shields down at somepoint to beam up the captain. Even so, the Enterprise primary goal was not to eliminate the enemy but to just disable its shields. A full powered blast of phasers and photons may very well have destroyed the Tamarian vessel.

Besides, the pre-dominion war Galaxys weren't much of a warship, relying more on shields than anything else. The Defiants, Sovereigns, refit Galaxys, Akiras etc were much more fearsome.

In Trek Terms, at the time period prior to the Dominion War, the Galaxy Class Ship was one of the most powerful designs in the AQ. Now if you want to substitue an upgraded GCS in this battle then in fairness you should give the other side the same opportunity to upgrade.

[/quote]

I'm not trying to "substitute" anything. Rather demonstrating the fact that the Pre Dom war galaxy is not a fair example of Federation war technology. Remember, that before the Defiant class the standard TNG Federation policy was against having pure warships (a niave notion to say the least). I suppose you could argue that the Tamarian ship might not have been a true "warship" either but that would be arguing unknowns.

[Darth Fanboy]

Their purpose was only to disable a scattering field, not to destroy the enemy vessel. I also find it hard to believe they had full shields up. If that were the case how could they beam out the Captain? (granted it has been a while since I saw the episode)

Riker ordered the attack which was indeed targeted at the scattering field, but the E-D was fully prepared, Riker ordered shields up and the crew should, SHOuLD, have been fully prepared in order to limit the inevitable damage from the invevitable first strike

As I said, its not that the technology wasn't there it was its application. If it attacked aggressively using its full armaments it is a very formidable warshap by trek standards. However in most trek shows they fire a few phaser shots, then let themselves get hit 3-4 times and fire again. I know they have better refire rates then that when they want them...

So youre using what evidence to counter this on screen evidence?

You are assuming they can go from no shields to full shields instantaneously. They had to have the shields down at somepoint to beam up the captain. Even so, the Enterprise primary goal was not to eliminate the enemy but to just disable its shields. A full powered blast of phasers and photons may very well have destroyed the Tamarian vessel.

Riker orders a counterattack after the Tamarians first volley hits them but the E-D is effectively neutered by this point.

As for the shields being raised I assume they were at near or full power, The Enterprise has never had problems with the shields needing time to reach full strength in any other situation.

I'm not trying to "substitute" anything. Rather demonstrating the fact that the Pre Dom war galaxy is not a fair example of Federation war technology. Remember, that before the Defiant class the standard TNG Federation policy was against having pure warships (a niave notion to say the least). I suppose you could argue that the Tamarian ship might not have been a true "warship" either but that would be arguing unknowns.

But since this incident took place prior to the Dominion War you cannot use the Dominion War standard. This event took place before that war and use must use the standard of that time. Since the standard GCS was the most powerful Federation ship at the time andnot a War-GCS or Soveriegn your point is moot.