Blockading Klingon space (TNG Redemption)

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-10-11 07:27pm

SirNitram wrote:Have you watched the episode? If you had, you'd notice they see the blockade, and formulate a plan to go through. At no point is the option of going around even discussed. Geordi comments it's not as big as he'd like, but big enough. The end result is, those who actually operate the ships saw no other reasonable option.

Actually, I watched it last night. Appearantly, you haven't seen the episode, because they did show a picture of the blockade, and it was incredibly tiny compared to the vastness of space around it.

This is something called 'suspension of disbelief'. For reasons we, the viewer, do not know, they were forced to fly through. Whining 'It's interstellar space! They should be fine! It can't be so!' is exceptionally annoying. At least the suggestions put forth for why can rationalize the situation.

And going by the stated facts of the episode, we know that the blockade would be hard pressed to protect a planet, let alone an interstellar empire. The problem here is that your brain is too undeveloped to wrap itself around the scale we are talking about. Let me put this another way, since you are clearly too stupid to understand the the problem in the context that the problem is in. Put a 1cm marble (it's a little glass ball that children play with) in a square (a shape that has four equal sides and has four 90 degree corners) field ~500 meters on a side. That marble is the Federation blockade compared to the square lightyear around it. As you can see, it's quite small. Tiny. Almost non-existant. Now, I'm sure you can see, even with your questionable brainstem, that the area of space that the blockade is not covering is much much MUCH vaster than the area that it is. Since the area that the blockade is covering is completely identical to the area it is not in that square lightyear (it's all hard vacuum with the odd particle here and there), there is no reason why something couldn't just step around it.

Luke Starkiller · Post by **Luke Starkiller** » 2003-10-11 08:15pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Have you watched the episode? If you had, you'd notice they see the blockade, and formulate a plan to go through. At no point is the option of going around even discussed. Geordi comments it's not as big as he'd like, but big enough. The end result is, those who actually operate the ships saw no other reasonable option.
Actually, I watched it last night. Appearantly, you haven't seen the episode, because they did show a picture of the blockade, and it was incredibly tiny compared to the vastness of space around it.

This is something called 'suspension of disbelief'. For reasons we, the viewer, do not know, they were forced to fly through. Whining 'It's interstellar space! They should be fine! It can't be so!' is exceptionally annoying. At least the suggestions put forth for why can rationalize the situation.
And going by the stated facts of the episode, we know that the blockade would be hard pressed to protect a planet, let alone an interstellar empire. The problem here is that your brain is too undeveloped to wrap itself around the scale we are talking about. Let me put this another way, since you are clearly too stupid to understand the the problem in the context that the problem is in. Put a 1cm marble (it's a little glass ball that children play with) in a square (a shape that has four equal sides and has four 90 degree corners) field ~500 meters on a side. That marble is the Federation blockade compared to the square lightyear around it. As you can see, it's quite small. Tiny. Almost non-existant. Now, I'm sure you can see, even with your questionable brainstem, that the area of space that the blockade is not covering is much much MUCH vaster than the area that it is. Since the area that the blockade is covering is completely identical to the area it is not in that square lightyear (it's all hard vacuum with the odd particle here and there), there is no reason why something couldn't just step around it.

Under suspension of disbelief, since the Federation expected the blockade to be successful and since the Romulans never even considered going around; making the blockade successful. There obviously WAS some reason that they couldn't 'just step around'.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-10-11 08:34pm

My guess is that the Romulan -Klingon - Federation boarder in the area is unsited in shape for the Romulans to penetrate. That the point that Picard guarded was the one access point to the Duras supply bases that would not pass through either Federation space or the more traditional heavily defended Klingon boarder areas.

For reasons of politics, the Romulan command flatly refused Sela permission to violate Federation space and risk discovery. Add to that the nature of the civil war and the fact that the Romulan fleet may well have a very narrow window / corredor to use to get to the Duras supply bases. So if they don't take the route which Picard correctly guessed and blockaded, they would have to take a far more hazardous route though loyalyst space...

Such is all I can think of, even though it would still not explain why the Romulans could not simply step around the fleet by moving a billion klicks further to the left.

Again its a case of Trek writers not knowing the first thing about astrophysics.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-10-11 08:43pm

Um, back to GK's subspace lanes or whatever?

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-10-11 08:50pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Perhaps it was the only route that wasn't patrolled.
Since when are their "routes" in interstellar space?

What I mean is. Perhaps that area of space is not heavily patrolled, which would make it the only point that the Romulans could enter.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 2003-10-11 10:35pm

Were not the Romulans going into Fed space and short-cutting into Duras territory? Somehow part of the sensor grid was disabled (be it faulty Tech or Romulan subterfuge) and that is where the gap was.

I hope that helps.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-10-11 10:40pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Have you watched the episode? If you had, you'd notice they see the blockade, and formulate a plan to go through. At no point is the option of going around even discussed. Geordi comments it's not as big as he'd like, but big enough. The end result is, those who actually operate the ships saw no other reasonable option.
Actually, I watched it last night. Appearantly, you haven't seen the episode, because they did show a picture of the blockade, and it was incredibly tiny compared to the vastness of space around it.

Well whoop de shit. This does what, exactly, to refute the fact the Romulans never even considered going around, asshat?

This is something called 'suspension of disbelief'. For reasons we, the viewer, do not know, they were forced to fly through. Whining 'It's interstellar space! They should be fine! It can't be so!' is exceptionally annoying. At least the suggestions put forth for why can rationalize the situation.
And going by the stated facts of the episode, we know that the blockade would be hard pressed to protect a planet, let alone an interstellar empire. <Snip Whining and insults>

Except, of course, you're a whiney bitch who doesn't understand suspension of disbelief. Canon fact is that the blockade was enough to force the Romulans through it. You can whine, bitch, moan, and hurl insults all day, it will not change it.

What next, pathetic bitchings that interstellar powers would never fight at ranges below 10 kilometers?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-10-11 10:51pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:What I mean is. Perhaps that area of space is not heavily patrolled, which would make it the only point that the Romulans could enter.

Well, that's the thing. The Romulans could only be detected by means of the tachyon trip wires at that point, meaning that only the area within the blockade is dangerous to them. Patrol ships shouldn't be able to detect them.

Besides, like I pointed out, the blockade fleet that the Federation sent, as it is, only blockaded a few hundred million kilometers of space at most. There is no reason that I can see why the Romulans could have went up and over the web, without even changing their course in any meaningful way compared to the distance they already travelled just arriving at the border.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-10-11 11:21pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Besides, like I pointed out, the blockade fleet that the Federation sent, as it is, only blockaded a few hundred million kilometers of space at most. There is no reason that I can see why the Romulans could have went up and over the web, without even changing their course in any meaningful way compared to the distance they already travelled just arriving at the border.

In poker, there's an old saying: you play the hand your dealt. The canon facts of the episode are that the Romulans were unable to fly around or evade the blockade line. You can piss and moan about how you believe they should have been able to do otherwise all you like. The episode shows they couldn't.

Deal with it.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-10-12 02:23am

What if that entire area was some sort of "subspace shoal" as Voyager so wonderfully introduced us to, and there was only a relatively "subspace channel" if one wills, where warp drive would function? Patrick, I think you in fact actually suggested as much though I might have misinterpeted that. It could also, though, explain why the Romulan-Klingon border is there (and presumably the UFP nearby)--none of them could expand into a region where warp travel is highly unfeasable, so they agreed to delineate their boundaries there.

P.S. Admiral Byng would disagree with you when it comes to the application of regs, though one grants he is an exception.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-10-12 03:04am

Keep in mind that the Duras faction only controlled a certain part of Klingon territory. We know that the Klingons had since broken off relations with the Romulans in favor of a Federation alliance, so it seems possible that the Klingons may have constructed a network of outposts along the Klingon/Romulan border similar to the outposts monitoring the Romulan/Federation Neutral Zone.

Given this, it could be that there were few places where the Romulans could expect to make it into Klingon territory undetected (as I suspect that while starships may not be able to carry sensors sensitive enough to detect cloaked ships, fixed installations dedicated to such a task may be able to... partially supported by the line in Nemesis saying the Scimitar's cloak was "perfect", which would suggest that the cloaks of other Romulan vessels are not), and of these places, perhaps only one was in Duras-controlled territory. Or perhaps the other places were too near the Federation border and their outposts. Or perhaps going any faster presents an even greater risk of detection by outposts or even starships.

There's also travel time. The Duras sisters were depending on continual Romulan reinforcement in order to keep up the fight... IIRC, they were getting agitated at the first sign of a delay, let alone the possibility of a missed shipment. Hence the Romulans will try to take the shortest path possible... and there may have been a single shortest point which at some point was narrow enough for the Federation fleet to blockade and prevent the Romulans from effectively bypassing.

Aside from circumstances of Data getting a command

Picard fought for Data to be legally declared a sentient life form with the right to self-determination and the same rights as other Starfleet officers, and now he's going to turn around and discriminate against Data because he's an android? This would be severely inconsistent, and had it been written the other way I assure you someone would have written about "the writers' incompetence in ignoring continuity."

and why Data wasn't canned for disobeying a direct order from his superior in the face of the enemy

Picard explained this himself. If Data had "just followed orders", the operation would have failed. By refusing the order and acting on his initiative, the operation was a success. The ends can justify the means.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-10-12 03:28am

Uraniun235 wrote:There's also travel time. The Duras sisters were depending on continual Romulan reinforcement in order to keep up the fight... IIRC, they were getting agitated at the first sign of a delay, let alone the possibility of a missed shipment. Hence the Romulans will try to take the shortest path possible... and there may have been a single shortest point which at some point was narrow enough for the Federation fleet to blockade and prevent the Romulans from effectively bypassing.

Going around the blockade, as small as it was, would have added minutes to their travel time. Seconds, if they were in a hurry. A few hundred million kilometers is nothing when you consider how far the Romulan fleet had to travel just to get there.

Picard fought for Data to be legally declared a sentient life form with the right to self-determination and the same rights as other Starfleet officers, and now he's going to turn around and discriminate against Data because he's an android? This would be severely inconsistent, and had it been written the other way I assure you someone would have written about "the writers' incompetence in ignoring continuity."

I wasn't clear what I was talking about, because it wasn't an issue, but let me elaborate. I wasn't talking about android rights, I was talking about the fact that StarFleet was so undermanned that the Enterprise had to lend out it's senior officers just to captain the ships that the Federation cooked up. Not to mention many of the ships they got from space dock and weren't finished.

Picard explained this himself. If Data had "just followed orders", the operation would have failed. By refusing the order and acting on his initiative, the operation was a success. The ends can justify the means.

No they don't. Data disobeyed lawful orders from his commanding officer in the face of the enemy based on what amounted to a hunch about what the Romulans were up to. That's a very bad thing.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-10-12 05:15am

I thought it was conveyed in the episode that the blockaded point was the only point in the border where the normal detection grids were either down or destroyed. That was the reason for Sela's group needing to move through that specific area, anywhere else and the border grids would spot them.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-10-12 05:19am

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Picard explained this himself. If Data had "just followed orders", the operation would have failed. By refusing the order and acting on his initiative, the operation was a success. The ends can justify the means.
No they don't. Data disobeyed lawful orders from his commanding officer in the face of the enemy based on what amounted to a hunch about what the Romulans were up to. That's a very bad thing.

why not, he did do the right thing. You gotta understand the difference between doing things the right way and doing the right thing, they are not always the same thing.(hardly ever are in fact)
If he had disobeyed orders and in doing so allowed the Romulans to slip by then his ass would have been in big trouble, but because he was right he is allowed some leniency.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-10-12 01:15pm

Death from the Sea wrote:I thought it was conveyed in the episode that the blockaded point was the only point in the border where the normal detection grids were either down or destroyed. That was the reason for Sela's group needing to move through that specific area, anywhere else and the border grids would spot them.

When was this stated specifically? Because I didn't hear it.

why not, he did do the right thing. You gotta understand the difference between doing things the right way and doing the right thing, they are not always the same thing.(hardly ever are in fact)
If he had disobeyed orders and in doing so allowed the Romulans to slip by then his ass would have been in big trouble, but because he was right he is allowed some leniency.

Except that you cannot break the chain of command like that based on a hunch, even if it turns out to be the right one. For one thing, it sets a bad legal precident, since now other commanders in StarFleet can disobey lawful orders based on hunches and plead a Data defense, that they just thought they were doing what was right for the mission. Is that any way to run a military, where your officers can go "I just thought I was going the right thing for the mission" and disobey lawful orders? For another thing, Data could have very easily have failed, and by not following Picards orders have inadvertantly left the Romulans through by refusing to faill back into the correct position.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2003-10-12 02:05pm

Death from the Sea wrote:I thought it was conveyed in the episode that the blockaded point was the only point in the border where the normal detection grids were either down or destroyed. That was the reason for Sela's group needing to move through that specific area, anywhere else and the border grids would spot them.

Detection grids on the border would be ineffective. The Romulans would be cloaked. They would need a tachyon grid across the whole border, which they by no means have the resources to do.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-10-12 04:32pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Except that you cannot break the chain of command like that based on a hunch, even if it turns out to be the right one. For one thing, it sets a bad legal precident, since now other commanders in StarFleet can disobey lawful orders based on hunches and plead a Data defense, that they just thought they were doing what was right for the mission. Is that any way to run a military, where your officers can go "I just thought I was going the right thing for the mission" and disobey lawful orders? For another thing, Data could have very easily have failed, and by not following Picards orders have inadvertantly left the Romulans through by refusing to faill back into the correct position.

I hate to tell you this, but individual initiative is recognised as valid reason, under certain conditions and stipulations, to break orders. It is recognised that a field commander may not have full information on the whole of a tactical situation or is not in position to respond effectively to conditions of battle which change unexpectedly.

It is also understood by every officer in the service that an officer who does break orders and acts on his own initiative does so at his own risk. He must be prepared to answer for and justify his decisions to his superiors or even a full review board —and it is up to them to either ratify his actions, remove him from his command, or bind him over for court-martial, which might happen even if his action results in the success of the mission. There is no "dangerous legal precedent"; the regs already take these situations into account just as they do today within the body of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the regulations of the services in our own world.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-10-12 04:49pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:No they don't. Data disobeyed lawful orders from his commanding officer in the face of the enemy based on what amounted to a hunch about what the Romulans were up to. That's a very bad thing.

I was under the impression that Captains of starfleet ships are given a bit of discretion. Data realized something but didn't have time to explain it.....action was needed immediately. Data did nothing wrong.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-10-12 05:09pm

Didn't Cheif Obrian mention something he had detected 15 Romulan cloaked ships during the blokade?

Long time since I saw the episode.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-10-12 07:33pm

Damn, this is pathetic.

GO GIL!!! Lets see your reputation trashed some more.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-10-12 09:27pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:No they don't. Data disobeyed lawful orders from his commanding officer in the face of the enemy based on what amounted to a hunch about what the Romulans were up to. That's a very bad thing.
I was under the impression that Captains of starfleet ships are given a bit of discretion. Data realized something but didn't have time to explain it.....action was needed immediately. Data did nothing wrong.

This isn't all that surprising, though. Consider how often a Starship can be out of range of a superior officer. The ability to use your discretion for situations at hand is practically required for a star-navy to function.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-10-12 10:32pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Death from the Sea wrote:I thought it was conveyed in the episode that the blockaded point was the only point in the border where the normal detection grids were either down or destroyed. That was the reason for Sela's group needing to move through that specific area, anywhere else and the border grids would spot them.
When was this stated specifically? Because I didn't hear it.

no it was not stated specifically, which is why I said "I thought it was conveyed"; meaning that is what I got out of it.

why not, he did do the right thing. You gotta understand the difference between doing things the right way and doing the right thing, they are not always the same thing.(hardly ever are in fact)
If he had disobeyed orders and in doing so allowed the Romulans to slip by then his ass would have been in big trouble, but because he was right he is allowed some leniency.
Except that you cannot break the chain of command like that based on a hunch, even if it turns out to be the right one. For one thing, it sets a bad legal precident, since now other commanders in StarFleet can disobey lawful orders based on hunches and plead a Data defense, that they just thought they were doing what was right for the mission. Is that any way to run a military, where your officers can go "I just thought I was going the right thing for the mission" and disobey lawful orders? For another thing, Data could have very easily have failed, and by not following Picards orders have inadvertantly left the Romulans through by refusing to faill back into the correct position.

While that is all good and well on paper, in the real world things do work that way. Read Patrick Degan's explanation it covers it quite well.

Sharp-kun wrote:Detection grids on the border would be ineffective. The Romulans would be cloaked. They would need a tachyon grid across the whole border, which they by no means have the resources to do.

Riiiight, so in the episode "Face of the Enemy" why did they talk about the detection grids on the border? Detection grids that could detect a cloaked romulan warbird, they ended up using Troi's codes to disable said grid. They do have the means and there are grids accept it.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-10-12 11:03pm

Alyeska wrote:Damn, this is pathetic.

GO GIL!!! Lets see your reputation trashed some more.

Hah, funny. What's even funnier is that I went to consult Mike's TNG database on Redemption on the matter just now to see if I could fish up a direct quote or two, and found that he came to the exact same conclusion I did (though he made the size of the blockade a bit bigger in his thought exercise on the matter), and mused twice on why didn't the Romulans just fly around it, due to it's ridiculously small size.

Of course, none of you assholes would dare say half to the shit to him that you've said to me in this thread over my question of "Why didn't the Romulans just fly around?". Mostly, I suspect, because you guys are too busy kissing his ass like it's made out of candy, and the sound would be too badly muffled.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-10-12 11:09pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Damn, this is pathetic.

GO GIL!!! Lets see your reputation trashed some more.
Hah, funny. What's even funnier is that I went to consult Mike's TNG database on Redemption on the matter just now to see if I could fish up a direct quote or two, and found that he came to the exact same conclusion I did (though he made the size of the blockade a bit bigger in his thought exercise on the matter), and mused twice on why didn't the Romulans just fly around it, due to it's ridiculously small size.

Of course, none of you assholes would dare say half to the shit to him that you've said to me in this thread over my question of "Why didn't the Romulans just fly around?". Mostly, I suspect, because you guys are too busy kissing his ass like it's made out of candy, and the sound would be too badly muffled.

If you can't find a way to rebutt, claim everyone is kissing Mike's ass one minute and shitting on him the next. Is that you, Robert?

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-10-12 11:17pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Damn, this is pathetic.

GO GIL!!! Lets see your reputation trashed some more.
Hah, funny. What's even funnier is that I went to consult Mike's TNG database on Redemption on the matter just now to see if I could fish up a direct quote or two, and found that he came to the exact same conclusion I did (though he made the size of the blockade a bit bigger in his thought exercise on the matter), and mused twice on why didn't the Romulans just fly around it, due to it's ridiculously small size.

Of course, none of you assholes would dare say half to the shit to him that you've said to me in this thread over my question of "Why didn't the Romulans just fly around?". Mostly, I suspect, because you guys are too busy kissing his ass like it's made out of candy, and the sound would be too badly muffled.

Lets go over this.

The Romulans possess warp drive, which would enable them to easily fly around a net that small thus there MUST have been some reason which prevented them from taking this course of action. However, that reason was not covered in the episode.