How DS9 and Voyager ruined Star Trek

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TheDarkling
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Post by TheDarkling »

- A planet-wide fungus which has developed intelligence
Thats been done on SG1, X Files and was sort of done on Enterprise )not planet wide just cargo bay wide but similar).
- Aquatic species whose spaceships are filled with water
- Societies with more than two fucking legs, for fuck's sake, instead of being the usual humanoid with ear and nose makeup
- Regions of space where the laws of physics are truly different, meaning that the part of the ship which intrudes into this region immediately starts disintegrating and everybody in that section dies
All coming up as the main plot points of Ent season 3 to one degree of another (although I doubt the people will die on the ship some Vulcans did get turned inside out).

Guess we will just have to see the execution on Enterprise since you seem to agree with the rough ideas.
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Post by Jeremy »

As I said before (and which apparently escaped your attention), why couldn't they leave some things mysterious?
I don't know, and it doesn't really matter to me since I want to know what magic is out there.
Actually, some of my examples from TOS already went outside your boundaries, so you obviously missed a beat, didn't you?
They weren't boundaries but all the things I could think of at that moment. The giant cell thing was done, a global sentience has been done and so on and so forth.
- Societies with more than two fucking legs, for fuck's sake, instead of being the usual humanoid with ear and nose makeup
Ear, nose, forehead, finger modification... that is all easy making a third leg that requires a bit more money. Really though, would a three legged alien really restore the magic?

I do not think that there is any magic left, I agree with you that the best way to keep the magic is for them to not have even explored it. Though with Voyager, there is no magic left to show. Maybe Giant Floating Grey Space Balls driven by some undescribable religious ferver to erradicate all heterosexual female Pandas.
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Post by Macross »

I respectfully disagree with your statments concerning DS9. As others have pointed out, its not really the writers fault that all aliens look humanoid. That has always been a problem with Star Trek.

A local TV station began showing DS9 reruns in my area, so I have gotten to watch the first two seasons of DS9 again for the first time in a long time. And I find that DS9 does manage to capture and maintain the mystery that you feel has been lost. The Prophets, for example, are unlike anything seen since the original series. What were their motivations, and what special connections did they have to Bajor? Who were Odos people? Where did he come from and why? Also, who was this mysterious Dominion that they kept hearing about?

Unfortunatly, the problem with mysteries, is that when you explore them, they no longer become mysteries. As was the case with the Founders. I will admit, that the show did shift focus over the years, but the mystery was there. So I do think we should give them some credit.

I will agree with you 100% on Voyager.
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Post by TurboPhaser »

I disagree totally about what has been said about DS9. You spoke of missing the fantastical beings that eat ships and such.

I think there were several reasons for their absence in DS9 and VOY.

1. The Producers may have thought filling those series with big huge mystical aliens may have gotten boring after a while. And perhaps those things may have been a little silly after the more serious image of TNG.

2. A new direction was good for DS9. Remember, DS9 and VOY were running side by side for a long time. You just cant have 2 'exploring space' shows together on the same network. It wouldnt have worked.

While I agree that Voyager didnt do the Borg any favours, i really didnt think it was that bad. Scorpion Pts 1 and 2 were fantastic, but I think things did downgrade a bit after the Queen was introduced.

If they did stick with the original TOS thing of mysterious super beings and the like, i'm sure we'd all be complaining about that instead of the lack of them.
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

Darth Wong wrote:- A planet-wide fungus which has developed intelligence
Hmm... is it just me, or is this idea similar to several of the alien species in H.P. Lovecraft's mythos?
- Aquatic species whose spaceships are filled with water
This sounds like a cool idea at first, but wouldn't all the water make it harder for the electrical components to function??
- Societies with more than two fucking legs, for fuck's sake, instead of being the usual humanoid with ear and nose makeup
Well, in "Voyager" they finally gave us this by introducing Species 8472 - unfortunately, by this point they had ran totally out of ideas and should have stopped the franchise long ago.
- Regions of space where the laws of physics are truly different, meaning that the part of the ship which intrudes into this region immediately starts disintegrating and everybody in that section dies
Kinda like Warp-Space in Warhammer 40K???


BTW - as for my opinion on DS9 and VOY ruining ST by making the faraway quadrants seem way too mundane - I've said it before, and I say it now: The Star Trek franchise should have stopped as soon as the writers ran out of ideas.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

I think the problem with an aquatic race that builds spaceships filled with water isn't problems with it's electrical components, which can be waterproofed, but rather that water has a really shitty mass/volume ratio. But an aquatic species would be really interesting, not just because they are aquatic, but because they'd naturally be so alien. I mean, they'd have to take a whole different technological path than land based lifeforms, since they'd develop things like fire much later on than, say, humanity did, possibly after they became a technologically advanced society with enough knowledge of chemistry to make stuff that burns underwater. How would that shape their society? Lacking fire would mean that they'd have to find an alternate means of creating metal, or would they even bother? What about how they see the world? For landlife, the world is more two diminsional, up and down are directions that are far less intuitive to us because we generally don't move in those directions as much. But an aquatic lifeform would evolve in a very three diminsional world, where up and down is every bit a direction of motion and consideration as any other one. Would that make them superb pilots once that got into space because they are at home in a three-dee world?

Such a race would have so much potential to be interesting and alien and different from the standard cookie cutter aliens of televised science fiction. The problem is with StarTrek (and televised sci-fi in general, but StarTrek is by far one of the worst offenders) is that they have recently backed off from the fresh and interesting. Things that are fresh and interesting also eat up screen time for explainations, and it takes a talented writer to incorporate such things into a 60 minute show and not make it a documentary about them. That's where continuity comes in, of course, where your fresh new aliens don't just disappear at the end of the episode and are never mentioned again, but rather incorporated into the universe so you learn a little bit about the twists and facets of their society every episode without it taking over the episode. There is no reason why DS9, for instance, couldn't have an aquatic race without them even exploring. It could make an interesting plot thread for an episode where O'Brien and the staff of DS9 in general have to deal with a delegation of aquatic life visiting the station for a conference or even to be en route to somewhere more important like Cardassia, and insisting to kick up their tentacles and be comfortable while they are staying their... which means that O'Brien and his crew are going to have to deal with flooding a large area with water (which is of a finicky temperature and has the specific minerals dissolved in it to befit a proper and civilized octopus, giving O'Brien no end headaches) and having their delegation going about in their large robotic encounter suits milling about the Promenade. ALOT could be done with such a set up.
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Post by Stravo »

I disagree that DS9 killed Trek. IMHO that can be laid at Voyager's feet with a messy coup de grace by Enterprise. DS9 was not about exploration and first contact. It was essentially a political and militray drama. The set up alone says it all. A federation station that was once Cardasian now in a newly freed Bajor's system that now has access to a wormhole leading to the other side of the galaxy. Think about it.

TOS - Starship Enterprise on a 5 year mission of exploration.

VOY - Starship Voyager trying to get home from the other side of the galaxy

ENT - The beginning of Starfleet.

Compare these simple premises to what is outlined above for DS9 and you can see that the producers and writers were goign for something a little more complex and daring. It may not have worked all the time but I have not been this entertained watching Trek since TOS. Sisko was an overactor in the vein of Kirk and had balls like Kirk. He even could be an obsessive bastard that had a cold cruel streak to him at times and add a dash of messainic spirit to him and you have the most interesting commanding officer since Kirk.

The Dominion War storyline gave jaded Trekkers like myself what we always wanted to see - the Federation at war.

The wonder and mystery in this show was - Would Dukat reform and actually be a good man? Would the Bajorans be able to reconcile with the oiccupation? What were the ultimate plans of the prophets? Would the Dominion win the war?

They were not exploring unknown space, tehy were exploring the human heart and condition. They were exploring the types of choices governments and men make under pressure. Cardasia sided with the Dominion to bolster her position and power and in an unflinching consequence to that decision destroyed itself. Reduced to an occupied power that woudl most likely never rise to power again.

That sure as hell beat out Voyager's lame ass prosthetic nose of the week.
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Post by greenmm »

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:- A planet-wide fungus which has developed intelligence
Hmm... is it just me, or is this idea similar to several of the alien species in H.P. Lovecraft's mythos?
Bust aside from (sometimes self-proclaimed) Lovecraftian movies, they have rarely been done in science-fiction films, and definitely not in Star Trek.
- Aquatic species whose spaceships are filled with water
This sounds like a cool idea at first, but wouldn't all the water make it harder for the electrical components to function??
Only if they used electrical components. They could have hydraulic or pressure-based components (steampunk style, Verne/Wells reminiscent, or even the "fluidic" systems used as temporary replacements for the Falcon in the EU novel Han Solo's Revenge). Computer networks could use optical datapaths that rely on bioluminescence to generate the light pulses, for example.
- Societies with more than two fucking legs, for fuck's sake, instead of being the usual humanoid with ear and nose makeup
Well, in "Voyager" they finally gave us this by introducing Species 8472 - unfortunately, by this point they had ran totally out of ideas and should have stopped the franchise long ago.
Not to mention that they came from outside the universe. Too bad the ST novels weren't canon; I'd love to see some Sulahmids on DS9/VOY/ENT...
- Regions of space where the laws of physics are truly different, meaning that the part of the ship which intrudes into this region immediately starts disintegrating and everybody in that section dies
Kinda like Warp-Space in Warhammer 40K???

BTW - as for my opinion on DS9 and VOY ruining ST by making the faraway quadrants seem way too mundane - I've said it before, and I say it now: The Star Trek franchise should have stopped as soon as the writers ran out of ideas.
Probably would have meant no VOY, and either no DS9 or only a few seasons of it...
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Post by Tsyroc »

Stravo wrote:I disagree that DS9 killed Trek. IMHO that can be laid at Voyager's feet with a messy coup de grace by Enterprise. DS9 was not about exploration and first contact. It was essentially a political and militray drama. The set up alone says it all. A federation station that was once Cardasian now in a newly freed Bajor's system that now has access to a wormhole leading to the other side of the galaxy. Think about it.

TOS - Starship Enterprise on a 5 year mission of exploration.

VOY - Starship Voyager trying to get home from the other side of the galaxy

ENT - The beginning of Starfleet.

Compare these simple premises to what is outlined above for DS9 and you can see that the producers and writers were goign for something a little more complex and daring. It may not have worked all the time but I have not been this entertained watching Trek since TOS. Sisko was an overactor in the vein of Kirk and had balls like Kirk. He even could be an obsessive bastard that had a cold cruel streak to him at times and add a dash of messainic spirit to him and you have the most interesting commanding officer since Kirk.

The Dominion War storyline gave jaded Trekkers like myself what we always wanted to see - the Federation at war.

The wonder and mystery in this show was - Would Dukat reform and actually be a good man? Would the Bajorans be able to reconcile with the oiccupation? What were the ultimate plans of the prophets? Would the Dominion win the war?

They were not exploring unknown space, tehy were exploring the human heart and condition. They were exploring the types of choices governments and men make under pressure. Cardasia sided with the Dominion to bolster her position and power and in an unflinching consequence to that decision destroyed itself. Reduced to an occupied power that woudl most likely never rise to power again.

That sure as hell beat out Voyager's lame ass prosthetic nose of the week.
One thing I'd like to add is that ocassonally characters like Quark and Garak would provide nice critques about humans and specifically the Federation that, IMO, were spot on.
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Post by greenmm »

TheDarkling wrote:
Atavarius wrote: When I watch a TOS episode I know that there will not be another Alien of the Week clone. There was always something new. Whether it be a giant space amoeba, or a creature that killed men for salt, or a planet full of people that took Chicago Mobs of the Twenties and made it the uber-Bible. In DS9 and VOY we get another alien who seems to be EXACTLY the same as many aliens we've seen before.
The only difference is that TOS's aliens didn't even have forehead makeup, they were still one note races designed to convey a point, the already mentioned planet of the Mobsters, Planet of the Nazis, What if the Romans have survived? planet, What if the Cold War got hot planet, what if all the grown ups died and so on, TNG had the same thing a lot of the time and so did DS9 to a lesser degree, I can't be bothered to remember Voyager but its probably true there as well.
I have to disagree there. Had the "Nazi Planet" episode occurred in TNG/DS9/VOY, you would have seen
-- all the aliens initially lock-step in with the Nazi party line
-- the aliens would have had a strange mix of Nazi and "modern" ST technology, such as Nazi uniforms but phaser/disruptor rifles, and V-2 rockets with impulse engines
-- the "resistance" would either have been 100% composed of Zeons, or would have only been formed once Starfleet personnel convinced them of the error of their ways
-- DS9 would find a way to work the Cardassians, Founders, or Maquis into the storyline. VOY would have had the aliens be able to provide something (equipment, fuel, food, etc.) critical for Voyager to continue the trip home.
-- TNG would have had the Federation scientist responsible for the problem either die heroically after leaping in front of the ship's captain to take a phaser blast, or decide to stay behind to fix the damage. DS9 would have had the heroic death or carting him off to prison. VOY would have had the heroic death, or he barely escaped with Voyager's crew after the rebellion succeeded and they wanted to lynch him.
-- in all cases, even though the scientist already broke the Prime Directive (thus "contaminating" the planet, and requiring intervention just to fix the problem), the command staff would have agonized over "breaking the Prime Directive".

Instead, we get
-- aliens that are aware of other species but are truly limited to pre-warp technology
-- aliens that are multi-dimensional, showing the gamet of reactions and allegiance to the Nazi party line that were found in real life (i.e. some "true believers", some open to changing their mind, and some dedicated to defeating a system they know is wrong)

Even in the gangster episode, you see not only varying reactions among the aliens, but you see things like Kirk (the history buff) having to figure out how to operate a car. If this was DS9 or VOY, or even TNG, you'd see someone (Sisko, Bashir, or O'Brien in DS9, Paris in VOY, and either Picard, Riker or a one-time crewman) has apparantly spent time on the holodecks learning to drive 20th Century automobiles -- and not just any type, but 1920's models to be precise, even though we've never seen them do it before and there'd be no good reason for them to have picked up the skill. The Roman and "Onlies" episodes also showed members of a species having varying reactions and making different decisions even when coming from the same society, something very lacking in the other Treks.

The Koms/Yangs episode is a little harder to classify, of course. On the one hand, it may have been meant to spotlight the fears of the Cold War, when everyone thought it would eventually lead to WW3 and the destruction of civilization on Earth -- as evidenced by the few Kom villages left and the savagery of the Yang tribes. OTOH, it's interesting to see the "Typical Americans" turned into the "noble savage", and I wonder if there wasn't meant to be some commentary on the treatment of Native Americans in the USA's past. Still, though, the Koms and Yangs were more of the supporting cast. The true conflict in the episode was between Kirk and the other captain, and how the one had gone against Starfleet's codes and regulations.
DS9 focused more on the main story line and thus didn't have as many varied aliens of the week but there were still a few and the morality tale stories that go along with them.
Even now with Enterprise where we should see 1st contacts and puzzling situations out the ass, what do we get. Moronic catsuits, more aliens of the week, and a genocidal captain. No mystery.
Enterprise has its aliens of the week to tell a tale sure but certainly not as much as Voyager did, in fact contrary to what many believe it does focus quite a bit upon what the usual suspect races were doing at this time (the purpose of a prequel in case some out there were wondering).
I will say that, at least, in ENT's defense. They actually do show Earth meeting alien races that were considered "normal" even in TOS days, like the Andorians. Still, though, the fact that we're still seeing one-note aliens, in effect making the TOS versions of the races the odd men out, is something I really dislike.
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Post by SirNitram »

Some more things no one in Trek tried to my knowledge...

1) Races so old, so long lived, and so powerful they've collapsed into the ultimate in decadence, enslaving lesser races to war because a wargame that consumes dozens of star systems is an interesting way to pass a weekend. (My own writing; Into The Night)

2) Crashing the damn ship on a strange, mysterious, uncharted planet and LEAVING THE FUCKER THERE for a season(Space Cases)

3) Q granting everyone's wishes so they can learn to be more grateful for what they have(Space Cases again, the wierd episode where everyone switches species).

There. You've got strange, alien cultures(They play games with trillions of sentients at a go, tossing their lives away for some notches on a scoresheet. Sure, humans like this exist, but it's different from YET ANOTHER IMPERIALIST), a strange, alien enviroment that will challenge the crew, and a moral lesson. BANG, instant Star Trek.
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Post by Lord Poe »

DS9 was quite simply, boring. They tried to ape B5, but it didn't work for them.

And Mike, Voyager didn't destroy the Borg. It was "First Contact" that came up with the idea of a queen, and Jonathan Frakes' desire to make an Aliens meets Trek movie.

Its funny that the regular Trek-snob will constantly say that the difference between Trek and Wars is, Wars just has a bunch of explosions and shootouts, while Trek is more mature, with DRAHMA, and characters that use their brains to solve problems.

Yet what have we seen, every single time Trek attempts to stick to this party line? Failure.

TOS: "The Cage" was rejected by the studios for being "too cerebral". So what does Roddenberry do? He gives us rough and tumble Kirk, with shootouts, fistfights, 'splosions aplenty.

ST:TMP: Oohh...Ah....Look at V'ger, wonder along with us....try to stay awake through this piece of shit. So what does Paramount do? Wrest control of Trek from Roddenberry, give it to the guy that produced the "Six Million Dollar Man" and come up with ST2:TWOK with rough and tumble Kirk, shootouts, fistfights, 'splosions aplenty.

TNG: First two seasons puttered along with the highbrow crew reading Shakespere, listening to 18th century music, etc. etc. etc. Roddenberry takes a dirt nap, and TNG is fighting Romulans, Borg, etc. etc. shootouts, fistfights, 'splosions aplenty.

Generations: Boring, boring crap. So what does Paramount do? First Contact!!

DS9: Ran out of ideas that centered around the station. What to do? Add the Defiant! 'splosions shootouts aplenty! WooHoo! Thar's some intellectual stimulation!

First two seasons of Voyager? Starting to peter out. I know! Add more Shakerspere? No...Add more intellectual mind puzzles that Trek is famous for instead of the childish action SW fans are used to? Nope. They added the Borg and some big tits.

Let's hear it for highbrow entertainment!
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Post by Alyeska »

Poe, its not the explossions and action that made DS9 good to watch. The best DS9 episodes had nothing to do with action, or if there was action that wasn't what made the episode good. I can think of two DS9 episodes off the top of my head that were some of their best and they had no action.

Having action from time to time was nice and it portrayed something different with Trek, but the action itself isn't what made DS9 so good.
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Post by Stravo »

Alyeska wrote:Poe, its not the explossions and action that made DS9 good to watch. The best DS9 episodes had nothing to do with action, or if there was action that wasn't what made the episode good. I can think of two DS9 episodes off the top of my head that were some of their best and they had no action.

Having action from time to time was nice and it portrayed something different with Trek, but the action itself isn't what made DS9 so good.
Alyeska was one of those episodes the one with Dukat and Sisko marooned together in that cave? BY FAR one of my favorite epiodes.

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Post by Alyeska »

Damn you, now thats THREE episodes. :P

I rather liked that one (really showed Dukats dark side), "The Sound of Her Voice", and the one where Garrak and Sisko get the Romulans to join the war. The second Sloan episode was fairly good too with how Sloan played Bashir like a fool. So that makes four.
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Post by DocHorror »

While I wouldn't say that DS9 killed trek, it certainly didn' help any. And as others have quite rightly pointed out DS9 clearly tried to cash in on Babylon 5's popularity. The only problem was that B5's villans were new and exciting. While DS9's seemed stale in comparision, and yes, subscribed to the two arms, two legs, funky forehead design predominant in trek.

DS9 had some good moments, but in my opinion, and this is just my opinion not a convincing argument or anything, the characters were just blah. Not even the introduction of Worf helped to liven things up. Again in my opinion, the writing style of the episodes changed. Its hard to describe, but in TOS we never had episodes that focused entirely on one character. I mean Kirk, Spock and McCoy were the stars, but we never spent the episode focusing entirely on thm while the rest of the cast had some bad b story.
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Post by Vendetta »

DocHorror wrote:While I wouldn't say that DS9 killed trek, it certainly didn' help any. And as others have quite rightly pointed out DS9 clearly tried to cash in on Babylon 5's popularity. The only problem was that B5's villans were new and exciting. While DS9's seemed stale in comparision, and yes, subscribed to the two arms, two legs, funky forehead design predominant in trek.
To be fair, B5's main races only had lumpy heads, silly hair, and one full body prosthetic.

But at least they were interesting people, not dull-as-ditchwater stereotypes..
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Post by DocHorror »

True, but you saw such wierd things whenever their was a crowd shot on B5...
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Post by Lord Poe »

Alyeska wrote:Poe, its not the explossions and action that made DS9 good to watch. The best DS9 episodes had nothing to do with action, or if there was action that wasn't what made the episode good. I can think of two DS9 episodes off the top of my head that were some of their best and they had no action.
But you have to admit the first two seasons, like TNG and VOY were lacking in any excitement, and were retooled. Just like Enterprise is being retooled for its third season.
Having action from time to time was nice and it portrayed something different with Trek, but the action itself isn't what made DS9 so good.
DS9 was boring 90% of the time. I can think of a couple DS9 episodes that were good without 'splosions: "The Visitor", and the one where O'Brien lives out 20 years of imprisonment in his head, a couple others. But that's about it, and it ws on for seven seasons!
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Post by Darth Wong »

DS9 completely killed any vestiges of my wife's interest in Trek, and I myself only watched it sporadically. I kid you not when I say that after DS9 came out, Rebecca said "that's it, I've had it with Star Trek."

Just FYI: she lined up with me to go see ST6 on opening day downtown when it came out. She was a Trek fan at one time. DS9 killed that.
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Lord Poe
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Re: How DS9 and Voyager ruined Star Trek

Post by Lord Poe »

Darth Wong wrote:Star Trek TOS had the familiar (the home territories of the Federation, with its Klingon and Romulan adversaries and political maneuvers) but when they went outside the comfortable confines of the Federation's home territory to "boldly go where no man has gone before", they encountered fantasic things: godlike beings, vast single-celled life forms that could swallow a starship, flying neural networks that encompassed a planet, a Great Barrier which could make gods out of men.
I know Voyager is everyone's favorite dog to kick around the yard, but to me anyway, it seemed to at least grasp at the coattails of TOS much more than DS9 and TNG did. There were some great episodes that were out of the ordinary, like "Course: Oblivion" the one where the planet "sampled" Voyager and its crew, then forgot and actually believed it was Voyager and the fake crew tried to get to Earth as well. The crew and the ship disintegrated as they learned the truth, and just before they caught up with the real Voyager.

Living Witness was an alternate reality where Voyager crashed on a planet and 700 years later, and the inhabitants tried to guess what the crew was like.

There was one where Voyager was dissected into various points of time, past and present, and Janeway was informed by a "time traveling" Chakotay about her decision to stay in the DQ, and she criticized herself!

"Latent Image" was a great one where the Doctor goes insane over and over again because he let a patient die.

It just seemed Voyager took more chances than TNG did. THAT made it closer to TOS. Yes, even turning Paris and Janeway into salamanders, and the "Captain Proton" stuff.

And before y'all wrinkle your nose at this and spit at the screen, remember TOS' low points, like "The Way to Eden" ("HERBERT! HERBERT!" "We reach, brother!"), "Plato's Stepchildren" with Spock doing a Mexican hat dance, and Kirk on all fours, braying "WEEEOO" while
playng horsey, the idiotic "Gem" episode, and the one where Kirk becomes an indian for a month. "I AM KIROOOOK!!" Please.
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DocHorror
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Post by DocHorror »

It just seemed Voyager took more chances than TNG did. THAT made it closer to TOS. Yes, even turning Paris and Janeway into salamanders, and the "Captain Proton" stuff.

And before y'all wrinkle your nose at this and spit at the screen, remember TOS' low points, like "The Way to Eden" ("HERBERT! HERBERT!" "We reach, brother!"), "Plato's Stepchildren" with Spock doing a Mexican hat dance, and Kirk on all fours, braying "WEEEOO" while
playng horsey, the idiotic "Gem" episode, and the one where Kirk becomes an indian for a month. "I AM KIROOOOK!!" Please.
Thats a fair comment. Though TOS had far more likeable characters and less of the moral discussions about the course of action to take.
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Post by Alyeska »

Lord Poe wrote:But you have to admit the first two seasons, like TNG and VOY were lacking in any excitement, and were retooled. Just like Enterprise is being retooled for its third season.
Yes, I do freely admit that. DS9 took time to figure out its place. It took the first two seasons to figure out what worked and the 3rd season to start bringing things about. DS9 truly got good on its 4th season and that is when I really started watching the series. I guess that is an advantage I had. I never really watched the series untill the 4th season.
DS9 was boring 90% of the time. I can think of a couple DS9 episodes that were good without 'splosions: "The Visitor", and the one where O'Brien lives out 20 years of imprisonment in his head, a couple others. But that's about it, and it ws on for seven seasons!
In that we disagree. I thought the series was great most of the time. The war episodes were damned nice even without explossions. And the episode you mentioned was yet another one of DS9s well done episodes.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Darth Wong wrote:DS9 completely killed any vestiges of my wife's interest in Trek, and I myself only watched it sporadically. I kid you not when I say that after DS9 came out, Rebecca said "that's it, I've had it with Star Trek."

Just FYI: she lined up with me to go see ST6 on opening day downtown when it came out. She was a Trek fan at one time. DS9 killed that.
Do you remember which episode of DS9 killed Star Trek for your wife?
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Post by Balrog »

DS9 could've been better, if the Dominion wasn't just another "Imperial/Fascist Humaniods with colored bumpy skin" :roll:

With that said, I think it was VOY that ruined Trek, esp. with how they just dumbed-down the Borg. Here they are, going waaaay off the starcharts, in a place probably only seen through a high-powered telescope in the AQ if that, and what do they run into? More Aliens-of-the-week and piss-poor plots trying to shove morality down our throats.
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
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