Homage(blatant rip-off) episodes

Macross · Post by **Macross** » 2003-08-16 03:51am

Master of Ossus wrote:
Sothis wrote: Errr, other than appearance, how exactly were the Breen a rip-off? None of them ever went looking for Han Solo, or reveal themselves to be Princess Leia in disguise
So? How does this invalidate the fact that the Breen were used as a major plot piece, and had a similar appearance to Leia's disguise?

The Breen copied Leia's outfit. The Breen were a major plot point.

An homage would have inserted the Breen in the background of a scene or two, but an homage would not allow for a character based on someone else's work to become a significant part of the plot. Did you see the ET's inserted in TPM running around and altering political machinations? Did you see the spear Obi-Wan threw in AotC becoming a significant problem for the Acklay? Those were homages. I did see the Breen becoming major players in the Dominion War arc. I did see the Breen actually changing the balance of power. I did see the Breen significantly prolonging the war, and threatening the UFP-Romulan-Klingon alliance with total defeat. That is a rip-off.

Well, like I said before, the Breen were only meant for a one-time appearance with the intention of it being an homage to ROTJ. I bet if the writers/costume designers knew that the Breen would become a major plot-point later in the series, they would have gone with a differant costume. So when they decided to add them to the war-arc, they were stuck with the costumes they had.

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2003-08-16 07:15am

Master of Ossus wrote:
Sothis wrote: Errr, other than appearance, how exactly were the Breen a rip-off? None of them ever went looking for Han Solo, or reveal themselves to be Princess Leia in disguise
So? How does this invalidate the fact that the Breen were used as a major plot piece, and had a similar appearance to Leia's disguise?

The Breen copied Leia's outfit. The Breen were a major plot point.

An homage would have inserted the Breen in the background of a scene or two, but an homage would not allow for a character based on someone else's work to become a significant part of the plot. Did you see the ET's inserted in TPM running around and altering political machinations? Did you see the spear Obi-Wan threw in AotC becoming a significant problem for the Acklay? Those were homages. I did see the Breen becoming major players in the Dominion War arc. I did see the Breen actually changing the balance of power. I did see the Breen significantly prolonging the war, and threatening the UFP-Romulan-Klingon alliance with total defeat. That is a rip-off.

None of what the Breen did bears any relavance to their appearance. Their apperance was only mentioned on one or two occasions and it had no bearing on the Breen changing the balance of power or any of that stuff. The only connection they have to Leia's outfit is just that, the outfit. Beyond that, there are no feasible comparisons.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-08-16 07:31am

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Enterprise had an episode with a TARDIS in it from Dr. Who.

What?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-08-16 09:35am

Sothis wrote: None of what the Breen did bears any relavance to their appearance.

Why is that relevant? Princess Leia's appearance didn't affect what she did, at all, in Jabba's Palace. She could have been dressed up as Darth Vader and no one would have cared.

Their apperance was only mentioned on one or two occasions and it had no bearing on the Breen changing the balance of power or any of that stuff. The only connection they have to Leia's outfit is just that, the outfit. Beyond that, there are no feasible comparisons.

And the outfit was a rip-off. As Macross stated, it was meant as an homage, but it became a rip-off when the Breen became important parts of the story. Why is this concept causing you difficulty?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-08-16 09:38am

Macross wrote:Well, like I said before, the Breen were only meant for a one-time appearance with the intention of it being an homage to ROTJ. I bet if the writers/costume designers knew that the Breen would become a major plot-point later in the series, they would have gone with a differant costume.

Sure.

So when they decided to add them to the war-arc, they were stuck with the costumes they had.

It was nice of them to go about designing a costume meant as an homage (and therefore that would never be used again) but then realize later that they could use it to clothe a major character. Some homage.

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2003-08-16 10:19am

Master of Ossus wrote:
Sothis wrote: None of what the Breen did bears any relavance to their appearance.
Why is that relevant? Princess Leia's appearance didn't affect what she did, at all, in Jabba's Palace. She could have been dressed up as Darth Vader and no one would have cared.

Their apperance was only mentioned on one or two occasions and it had no bearing on the Breen changing the balance of power or any of that stuff. The only connection they have to Leia's outfit is just that, the outfit. Beyond that, there are no feasible comparisons.
And the outfit was a rip-off. As Macross stated, it was meant as an homage, but it became a rip-off when the Breen became important parts of the story. Why is this concept causing you difficulty?

Who cares what the outfit looked like? That's what I'm saying. It's a nitpick, a pointless nitpick that has no relevance to anything Leia or the Breen did. That's all I'm saying.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-16 12:11pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:Wasn't the TOS episode "Who Mourns For Adonis?" (sp) one big reference to Erich von Däniken?
The episode predated the Von Däniken School of Crackpots by six years. Besides, the point of the episode wasn't the Ancient Astronauts Theory but rather the larger mythic theme of the death of the gods. Or rather, God. "Adonais" translates from the Greek as "God", so the title of the story really is "Who Mourns For God?"

Then again, the whole "Ancient Gods = Space Aliens" thing was not originally Von Däniken's ideas.

BTW, I thought that Von Däniken's books were published back in the 1960s. Or I might be wrong.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-16 12:12pm

BTW, I think the Voyager episode "Favourite Son" might have been a homage to a certain subgenre of 1950s sci-fi exemplified by "Cat-Women From The Moon" and "The Queen From Outer Space"...

Demiurge · Post by **Demiurge** » 2003-08-16 03:47pm

Howedar wrote:TNG "The Enemy" is obviously a direct plot lift of the movie "Enemy Mine".

The Enterprise episode "Dawn" also had some similarities to that movie.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-08-16 08:41pm

Sothis wrote:Who cares what the outfit looked like? That's what I'm saying. It's a nitpick, a pointless nitpick that has no relevance to anything Leia or the Breen did. That's all I'm saying.

Are you saying it would be okay if I made a movie with people dressed up in stormtrooper outfits, so long as the costumes didn't actually effect the plot?

This is plagiarism. Pure and simple. That is not acceptable conduct on the part of a television series.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-08-16 08:59pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Sothis wrote:Who cares what the outfit looked like? That's what I'm saying. It's a nitpick, a pointless nitpick that has no relevance to anything Leia or the Breen did. That's all I'm saying.
Are you saying it would be okay if I made a movie with people dressed up in stormtrooper outfits, so long as the costumes didn't actually effect the plot?

This is plagiarism. Pure and simple. That is not acceptable conduct on the part of a television series.

I agree it is a example of a complete lack of creativity

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-08-16 10:16pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:Wasn't the TOS episode "Who Mourns For Adonis?" (sp) one big reference to Erich von Däniken?
The episode predated the Von Däniken School of Crackpots by six years. Besides, the point of the episode wasn't the Ancient Astronauts Theory but rather the larger mythic theme of the death of the gods. Or rather, God. "Adonais" translates from the Greek as "God", so the title of the story really is "Who Mourns For God?"

"Adonais" is a form of the Hebrew word "Adonai", which simply means "my Lord" (the Hebrew word for "God" is "El", pl. "Elohim"). God hardly has a monopoly on the name, as it occurs hundreds of times in the Old Testament as referring to human beings, not to God (an interesting grammatical oddity is that, like El, Adonai is frequently pluralised when referring to God); there is, in fact, at least one instance wherein the word is used to refer first to God and then to a human being in the same clause (Psalm 110: 1).

In fact, there is a character named Adonis in Greek mythology wholly unrelated to the Judeo-Christian use of the word. In the myth, Adonis was beloved of both Aphrodite and Persephone, and upon his death, Zeus decreed that he would spend half the year in heaven with Aphrodite and half the year in the underworld with Persephone, thus accounting for summer and winter (ironically, this makes Adonis functionally identical to Persephone herself, who is supposed to spend half the year with her mother Demeter and half the year with her husband Hades).

In any event, the title is not an allusion to a Nietzschean requiem for God, but rather to Percy Bysshe Shelley's 1822 poem "Adonais", an elegy on the death of John Keats, and which begins with the line "I weep for Adonais -- he is dead!"

Incidentally, an Okudagram in the episode "Up the Long Ladder" includes mention of HMS New Zealand (DY-732(N)), launched from the Solar system in 2135 on an interstellar expedition to the Ficus sector, with the stated mission "Diplomatic mission to Alderaan" (the same display also includes mention of a VK Velikan, commanded by Gene Roddenberry, whose stated mission is "Explore strange new worlds").

Publius