Advice on dealing with Borg Wankers

[Singular Intellect]

Ah, yes, the deflector weapon energy blast is of such magnitude that Commander Shelby pointed out that unless they increased the deflector's range it would completely destroy the Enterprise as well.

But it's still just a technobabble effect, right Batman?

[Batman]

Ah, yes, the deflector weapon energy blast is of such magnitude that Commander Shelby pointed out that unless they increased the deflector's range it would completely destroy the Enterprise as well.
But it's still just a technobabble effect, right Batman?

You DO understand that the range they needed to be from the impact point to avoid being destroyed has no bearing whatsoever on wether ot not the effect was technobabble vs DET, yes?
Actually you obviously do NOT on account of being a complete and utter moron but I thought I'd be polite and ask.

[Singular Intellect]

I'd rather stick to Occam's Razor, thanks. Obviously you're not familiar with it.

[Batman]

I most certainly am. You, obviously, aren't.

[Peptuck]

I find it amusing that the baseline assumption that the deflector dish weapon being a brute force attack means that the Borg are somehow able to adapt to and deflect more energy than the Enterprise's entire weapons complement put together, yet somehow the Borg are still vulnerable to the much "weaker" individual energy weapons and torpedoes of Federation ships.

That line of logic is analgous to a plate of armor stopping a shell from a tank yet its somehow vulnerable to that same tank's .50 cal machinegun.

[BountyHunterSAx]

You've got to remember two important things about the improvised deflector-dish attack:

1.) They went from theory, to functioning model in less than a day, and (to the best of my recollection) never tested it prior to its use.

If this were the real world, then it is VERY likely that their improvised weapon simply did not function as they had originally intended it. I'm a CS Programmer, and if I ever have a bug-free program on the first run without any prior testing I consider it either a simple program or a minor miracle.

The assertion that their weapon idea didn't work is not provable, but certainly can find support in that there is no reference before or after it in the rest of Star Trek canon. The idea of using the deflector dish to route power from the warp engines as a weapon isn't brought up again, and while one might argue that the risk for damage to one's own ship is the reason it wasn't popularized, in ST:FC we see a ship attempting to suicidally ram a Borg cube rather than using a deflector-dish weapon blast.


2.) The Borg had foreknowledge of the exact specifications of the weapon that was going to be used against them well in advance of it actually being fired.

That's why when I phrased the original question I specifically asked if this whole discussion was moot on account of this very point. If Borg adaptation is somehow frequency-based - akin to dodging a bullet rather than stopping a bullet - then knowing the exact frequency/frequency-range of the Enterprise-D's would-be weapon would have been immensely useful to them in adapting to and avoiding it (avoiding, mind you, not blocking).

This theory handily explains why photon torpedoes and other conventional Trek weapons worked against the Borg cube in ST:FC.

-AHMAD

[Darth Servo]

The assertion that their weapon idea didn't work is not provable, but certainly can find support in that there is no reference before or after it in the rest of Star Trek canon. The idea of using the deflector dish to route power from the warp engines as a weapon isn't brought up again, and while one might argue that the risk for damage to one's own ship is the reason it wasn't popularized, in ST:FC we see a ship attempting to suicidally ram a Borg cube rather than using a deflector-dish weapon blast.

Actually, they did use the deflector weapon thing again in "Night Terrors" and it worked about as well as it did in BOBW.

[Stark]

Where it was less powerful than a chemical explosion, right?

[Darth Onasi]

Really? When did this take place? I've watched most of Voyager, and the only scene I ever recall a Borg drone's shield physically stopping someone from touching them was One's shield when he wouldn't let the Docter operate on him.

"Raven" I believe. Though I may be mistaken. I try to block out Voyager these days.

One should note just because it may be possible to protect against a specific attack, doesn't mean implementing such protection on all their drones is practical or efficient. The expenditure of losing a couple of drones to physical attacks would be magnitudes smaller than the Borg attempting to equip all their drones with such protection.

Either way, they can't adapt.

[Batman]

Where it was less powerful than a chemical explosion, right?

I think we can reasonably say that 'no visible effect whatsoever, at all' rates below a chemical explosion, yes.

[BountyHunterSAx]

Actually, I think Stark was referring to the exact way in which the beam was used.

The Enterprise was stuck in the Tyson's Rift, they tried to disrupt the rift by firing the Enterprise' energy into it via the deflector dish trick. Data stated that the reason it failed was that all the energy was absorbed into the rift.

To successfully escape the rift, however, they end up firing a beam of Hydrogen particles into it, which an alien species detonates with some unknown technology - producing a fantastic explosive display - and disrupting the rift.

Since the energy from the deflector-pulse was absorbed, but from the energy from the Hydrogen-explosion was not, we can deduce that the Hydrogen explosion was more powerful than the deflector discharge. This opens itself to a variety of explanations:

1.) The deflector-dish trick is highly inefficient in its translation of the Enterprise's warp-engine power to its actual damage output.

OR

2.) That the power output of the warp engines is on par with that of a hydrogen-explosion.

OR

3.) The unseen alien tech that ignites the Hydrogen is not really using the Hydrogen as its fuel as the crew of the Enterprise believed (or, alternatively, is not using the Hydrogen as its ONLY source of fuel; but rather is using some mix of other fuels that the alien species added to the rift with hydrogen as one of many, or as a catalyst).


Personally, I favor a mix of the first and third explanation. There's no reason to believe their jury-rigged solution that barely worked once, that they made in 6 hours, would be optimized for maximum efficiency of energy transfer. As for reason 3, we never see the alien ships firing at the rift, in fact Data originally thinks that Troi failed to get the signal across and that the alien crew had done nothing. Add on the fact that they were using telepathy to communicate, and we're up to two alien-techs that the Enterprise could not detect. Hence the possibility that the massiveness of the explosion was fueled more by the alien source rather than by the Enterprise's Hydrogen alone.

-AHMAD

-AHMAD

[Darth Servo]

Where it was less powerful than a chemical explosion, right?

Like I said, it worked about as well as it worked in BOBW, which is to say, not at all.

[BountyHunterSAx]

My bad, should have indicated that I was responding to the post Batman made right before mine. From his post I wasn't sure he knew the context of the episode.

-AHMAD

[Batman]

Frankly I can't tell whose bad it is since while I WAS commenting on the failure of the deflector dish weapon of doom to do ANYTHING discernible (other than glowing blueishly) in BOBW, his comment might very well have been referring to Night Terrors.

[OmegaGuy]

Wayne Poe has a nice page on his site dealing with the Borg

Unfortunately, it seems to be down at this time

[Lord Poe]

Wayne Poe has a nice page on his site dealing with the Borg

Unfortunately, it seems to be down at this time

I'm playing around with my website again, but all the links are still active, and will remain the same:

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/borgs/nuborg.html

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/usvsd.html

[Darth Servo]

Wayne, I think one of your pics is mislabeled. When talking about the big pile-o-drones in scorpion, you have your picture of cubes being shot from the beginning of the episode.

[Davey]

A repost of his arguments would be worthwhile just for humor value.

Will do. I'll post them the moment I can.

The last time I heard from him, the guy more or less was like, "And you can't calculate the Borg's shields! This is science-fiction, not real life, so my logical suppositions are valid enough! The Enterprise's shields didn't affect the Borg Cutters! You've proven they have superior firepower but the Borg will adapt to them! They are constantly evolving and the Imperials aren't innovative, they're facist! Since you can't prove everything, the Borg win! And they've got thousands of cubes! And a cube is bigger than an ISD! So since you can't prove everything I win by default!" Then he pulled the manners card (right hurling his own insults, I might add, talk about purpose-defeating) and backed out after telling me now that he's too busy writing his thesis on military technology and 'in his most professional opinion' I wasn't qualified to deal with such matters. I thought that all was very funny, it sounded exactly like the trolls over here.

I'd send him back the part about Voyager's shields standing up to the Borg's cutting beam, and about how the Borg, despite losing hundreds of cubes and many drones to Species 8472 they still continued to charge in broadcasting their 'Resistance is Futile' pitch, but the guy's probably already celebrating his little victory with the rest of his fellow Trekkies. But next time he comes to gloat, I've got the tools for dealing with him.

Thanks.

[Lord Poe]

Wayne, I think one of your pics is mislabeled. When talking about the big pile-o-drones in scorpion, you have your picture of cubes being shot from the beginning of the episode.

That probably won't be fixed for a while, if ever!

[Batman]

Disregarding this morons inability to properly spell fascist, what exactly has the Wars empire being fascist got to do with them not being all that innovative?
Especially when the real world's most infamous fascist country (i.e., Nazi Germany) rather was as long as it concerned ways to kill people more efficiently?

[Darth Servo]

Wayne, I think one of your pics is mislabeled. When talking about the big pile-o-drones in scorpion, you have your picture of cubes being shot from the beginning of the episode.

That probably won't be fixed for a while, if ever!

Why? Lose the pic and the DVD?

[Davey]

Disregarding this morons inability to properly spell fascist, what exactly has the Wars empire being fascist got to do with them not being all that innovative?
Especially when the real world's most infamous fascist country (i.e., Nazi Germany) rather was as long as it concerned ways to kill people more efficiently?

I'm really not sure. (The typo was partly my fault, I just posted the general direction of the arguments, not copy-pasted them word for word). I'm guessing maybe he felt that fascism is an 'old style' way of doing things in contrast to Trek's neo-communist, utopian, ultramodern society, but again that is only my guess.

On a slightly related note, has anyone got a citation for the number of ISDs there are in the Galactic Empire? I checked the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels but couldn't find a figure.

[Ghost Rider]

Disregarding this morons inability to properly spell fascist, what exactly has the Wars empire being fascist got to do with them not being all that innovative?
Especially when the real world's most infamous fascist country (i.e., Nazi Germany) rather was as long as it concerned ways to kill people more efficiently?

I'm really not sure. (The typo was partly my fault, I just posted the general direction of the arguments, not copy-pasted them word for word). I'm guessing maybe he felt that fascism is an 'old style' way of doing things in contrast to Trek's neo-communist, utopian, ultramodern society, but again that is only my guess.

On a slightly related note, has anyone got a citation for the number of ISDs there are in the Galactic Empire? I checked the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels but couldn't find a figure.

The only used number is 25,000 ISDs.

The problem with that number is that

1. The Death Star, both of them, would be literally billions of these crafts.

2. It is deliberatly vague, since we know there are multiple classes of even ISDs.

3. It doesn't jive with the size of the Empire or even the Republic.

[Lord Poe]

That probably won't be fixed for a while, if ever!

Why? Lose the pic and the DVD?

No, complete disinterest.

[Ryan Thunder]

Disregarding this morons inability to properly spell fascist, what exactly has the Wars empire being fascist got to do with them not being all that innovative?
Especially when the real world's most infamous fascist country (i.e., Nazi Germany) rather was as long as it concerned ways to kill people more efficiently?

I'm really not sure. (The typo was partly my fault, I just posted the general direction of the arguments, not copy-pasted them word for word). I'm guessing maybe he felt that fascism is an 'old style' way of doing things in contrast to Trek's neo-communist, utopian, ultramodern society, but again that is only my guess.

On a slightly related note, has anyone got a citation for the number of ISDs there are in the Galactic Empire? I checked the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels but couldn't find a figure.

The only used number is 25,000 ISDs.

The problem with that number is that

1. The Death Star, both of them, would be literally billions of these crafts.

2. It is deliberatly vague, since we know there are multiple classes of even ISDs.

3. It doesn't jive with the size of the Empire or even the Republic.

While (3) may be true, how do we know for certain that the information we have regarding the size of the Empire is more accurate than this?

We've still got (1) and (2), of course, I'm just wondering.