StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Stas Bush wrote:Combined propulsion, you place the pumpjet behind the screw into the hull.

Oh... interesting idea. Does the Graney use a similar system?

Covered in fenestrons to reduce noise. I specifically noted that.

*studies picture again*

I guess it's those shrouds at the back.

Hmm... maybe a combined propulsion + fenestrons is a better idea. I think the speed will fall to 28-30knots, but there will be a higher silent speed of maybe 20knots.

Ok. Deal. I'll fund your Graney production, while I take these boats, and then do substantial modification. Saves me money, and allows me to pool more resources to say an Oscar III submarine type.

Does the Graney use a similar system?

Nah, either-or, as do most boats. It has been stipulated that such a configuration is possible with the B-871. A fenestron-covered blade can also include a low-rate pumpjet if the boat is large enough. But sure, replace the fins with larger pumpjets to retain the speed, if you want. I don't think that would waste too much coating - probably creating some 5x5 m area cover tubes with sound absorber-covered coating for the pumpjet would be enough.

I'll fund your Graney production

Nah, just buy the Akulas with an advance payment, I'll use this money to fund the Granays (plus my own money), and then once my new boats are constructed, I'll give you the old ones from my inventory. I could send one to you for evaluation right now, anyway.

Stas Bush wrote:Nah, just buy the Akulas with an advance payment, I'll use this money to fund the Granays (plus my own money), and then once my new boats are constructed, I'll give you the old ones from my inventory. I could send one to you for evaluation right now, anyway.

*Takes out cheque book* How much a boat and how many?

Also, Stas, I was looking at your OOB, and why is it those new SSGNs are only going to get deployed in 2011? 1 year training after launch?

$750 million each. You could have my entire 20 submarines for the cost of $15 billion, which is a lot versus the $13 billion per 3 Seawolfs.

The Granay would cost a little less than Virginia as well (1,5$ billion as far as I coudl gather, twice the price of 971B). And consider the fact that "Virginia" does not use a pumpjet, but a fenestron covered blade instead.

Fingolfin wrote:1 year training after launch?

It's unrealistic to construct 2 such large SSGNs in 1 year, fully crew and staff them. In reality, the Typhoon took 1,5-2 years to make each. I'm going from that figure. Of course, you can simultaneously lay down 2-3 boats, speeding up the construction, but I alread did that - I laid down two and will get two in two years.

Stas Bush wrote:$750 million each. You could have my entire 20 submarines for the cost of $15 billion, which is a lot versus the $13 billion per 3 Seawolfs.

The Granay would cost a little less than Virginia as well (1,5$ billion as far as I coudl gather, twice the price of 971B). And consider the fact that "Virginia" does not use a pumpjet, but a fenestron covered blade instead.

Deal. *writes cheque* Yeah, Seawolfs are bloody expensive and I'm capping the numbers at 9. No more than that. Virginias are pretty expensive considering what they are capable of. Might want to produce some Graneys as well. But, that can wait till next year.

It's unrealistic to construct 2 such large SSGNs in 1 year, fully crew and staff them. In reality, the Typhoon took 1,5-2 years to make each. I'm going from that figure. Of course, you can simultaneously lay down 2-3 boats, speeding up the construction, but I alread did that - I laid down two and will get two in two years.

I suppose. I will be laying 2 hulls per year.

You people and your military fetishisms!

Goddamn it, I need to get back into building my soft power like how I totally ruled Game 1. Third World nations of the world... TO ME!

Shroom Man 777 wrote:You people and your military fetishisms!

Goddamn it, I need to get back into building my soft power like how I totally ruled Game 1. Third World nations of the world... TO ME!

Technically, only Astaria and maybe a few other NPCs are third world.....

If I openly re-establish relations with Astaria, everyone would hate me, right?

Shroom Man 777 wrote:If I openly re-establish relations with Astaria, everyone would hate me, right?

Well, Byzantium allowed Astaria to open an embassy, if only to allow them a means to communicate with foreign powers.

Otherwise, flights into Byzantium from Astaria are heavily regulated.

But yes, if you greet the Astaria with fanfare, yeah, you will be hated.

Having some sort of relations with Astaria is probably necessary to at least try to solve situations like the ones we are having without bloodshed.

Of course, saying "Astarians are our friends" is a political suicide act.

Well, I'm back from my trip and catching up on developemets is likely going to take awhile (And there have been plenty of them!).

Seawolfs are expensive, but would have cost about $2 billion/boat for the later ships. The VAs didn't end up any cheaper. Also, they're supposed to be quiet at 25 knots, with a higher maximum speed. Actual maximum is classified, but known to be greater than 30 knots.

Yeah, the Seawolf's max speed is around 35 knots, I made a typo and tried to correct it but mis-posted.

The VAs didn't end up any cheaper.

Sure. They also have no pumpjet, but a fenestron for the blade - and there's little reason to pay $2,5 billion per boat which is the cost of Virginia, right?

Too atrociously expensive. They do carry a lot of ammunition, but frankly, numbers matter. Packs of hunter-killers should be operating together with some dedicated to "seekers" while other to "annihilators" role. Not to mention area patrols for which numbers are essential. If you have 3-5 submarines costing 2,5$ billion with lots of ammunition, and the enemy has 15-20 submarines with a little less ammunition... you're not in a good position.

Beowulf wrote:Seawolfs are expensive, but would have cost about $2 billion/boat for the later ships. The VAs didn't end up any cheaper. Also, they're supposed to be quiet at 25 knots, with a higher maximum speed. Actual maximum is classified, but known to be greater than 30 knots.

Wasn't the original projected cost about 33.6 billion for 12 boats? Correcting for inflation, that'd rise to somewhere exceding the cost of current Virginia class.

Anyhow, those Akula II Modernised are going through extensive refitting before they get relaunched. Their new sonar and other systems should be more or less Seawolf equivalent, and I'll do some quietening on the ship to ensure it will be at least as quiet as the Virginias.

Just fit a fenestron. Most of Virginia's quietness comes from this system.

Stas Bush wrote:Just fit a fenestron. Most of Virginia's quietness comes from this system.

I was thinking of giving the boat a bit more life by going all the way to a pumpjet/propeller in a Fenestron system. It will take a while to train up the crew to run 20 boats so I might as well take the time doing some refitting.

Stas Bush wrote:Yeah, the Seawolf's max speed is around 35 knots, I made a typo and tried to correct it but mis-posted.

The VAs didn't end up any cheaper.

Sure. They also have no pumpjet, but a fenestron for the blade - and there's little reason to pay $2,5 billion per boat which is the cost of Virginia, right?

Too atrociously expensive. They do carry a lot of ammunition, but frankly, numbers matter. Packs of hunter-killers should be operating together with some dedicated to "seekers" while other to "annihilators" role. Not to mention area patrols for which numbers are essential. If you have 3-5 submarines costing 2,5$ billion with lots of ammunition, and the enemy has 15-20 submarines with a little less ammunition... you're not in a good position.

Quantity has a quality all its own, but after a certain point, cutting costs results in so much lost capability that all your boats are, are targets. The newest Virginias are supposed to be down to only $1.9 billion.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:

Beowulf wrote:Seawolfs are expensive, but would have cost about $2 billion/boat for the later ships. The VAs didn't end up any cheaper. Also, they're supposed to be quiet at 25 knots, with a higher maximum speed. Actual maximum is classified, but known to be greater than 30 knots.

Wasn't the original projected cost about 33.6 billion for 12 boats? Correcting for inflation, that'd rise to somewhere exceding the cost of current Virginia class.

Anyhow, those Akula II Modernised are going through extensive refitting before they get relaunched. Their sonar and other systems should be more or less Seawolf equivalent, and I'll do some quietening on the ship to ensure it will be at least as quiet as the Virginias.

Yes, it was 33.6 billion for 12, but bear in mind that a large portion of that cost is front loaded onto the first couple boats, for project design and R&D costs. The actual program cost $7.4 billion when terminated (not counting the .9 billion for the modifications to the SSN-23). So the program would most likely come in underbudget as well.

Well, I'm estimating the refit I'm going to give the boats will be of the order of 500 million, so it won't be altogether a cake walk. Replacing lots of electronics, sonar, and adding a new engine system is going to cost something like.. 500-750 million possibly.

At least my shipyards have work to do, while Seawolf production is brought to a close sometime next year. And I can reinforce my carrier battlegroups with more submarines and not get caught flatfooted by any of Shep's SSANs, or Skimmer's multitude of submarines.

Steve wrote:And as I said on IM, that number must also include other international shipping moving in that region.

How much shipping can there be in the region?

Stas Bush wrote:Having some sort of relations with Astaria is probably necessary to at least try to solve situations like the ones we are having without bloodshed.

Urm unless we get a shooting war when you grab the ship (or just remove the slaves from it) how can there be any bloodshed?

Stas Bush wrote:Of course, saying "Astarians are our friends" is a political suicide act.

I would assume so yes.

Incidentally Astaria is probably not quite third world, but fairly bad off anyway. Mind you Astaria has always been a very isolated, backwards place. Even before the embargoes Astaria was just too far away from the main shipping lanes, and they never really had much of a maritime / naval tradition.

Norseman wrote:

Stas Bush wrote:Having some sort of relations with Astaria is probably necessary to at least try to solve situations like the ones we are having without bloodshed.

Urm unless we get a shooting war when you grab the ship (or just remove the slaves from it) how can there be any bloodshed?

I think what he means is having diplomatic channels to communicate when such matters occur, instead of having little contact and the potential of someone deciding a military solution is the best thing to do.

Stas Bush wrote:Of course, saying "Astarians are our friends" is a political suicide act.

I would assume so yes.

Incidentally Astaria is probably not quite third world, but fairly bad off anyway. Mind you Astaria has always been a very isolated, backwards place. Even before the embargoes Astaria was just too far away from the main shipping lanes, and they never really had much of a maritime / naval tradition.[/quote]

Okay.... wait a minute. You're an island in the middle of the ocean roughly between Old Continent, the Crater Archipelago, and Veleria. You are in fact nicely placed to be a focus point of intercontinental trade, especially in the days of sail when ships often needed safe harbors. It does not make that much sense for you to not have a maritime tradition. A withered one, yes, since you've been forced to become a virtual autarky by the world's condemnation of your slavery practices. But the mere fact you'd need sea-lane communications with South Veleria indicates you should have a decent maritime capability, at least for your overall level.

As for shipping in the region? Veleria likely exports a fair bit of materials to the rest of the world, and any ships heading to Old Continent or the Crater laden with Velerian goods would likely move through that area. And the stablization of former al-Akharabat has likely only increased shipping to the region.

It's not the Suez or the Malacca Straits, but I imagine a fair amount of ships move through those waters, not just Astarian ships maintaining the sea-link to South Veleria.

MKSheppard wrote:However, the MiG 1.42/1.44 even without all the uberclaims attributed to it is much more capable than the MiG-31; it can supercruise, and can fly much faster than the F-22; and is significantly cleaned up in terms of RCS compared to the MiG-31.

It’s not really a question that MiG-1.42 is more agile then F-22, between the 3-D thrust vectoring, canards, higher thrust variable cycle engines, and general ability of the designers to emphasis this feature over stealth it couldn’t help but be so. However it is questionable that this maneuverability advantage is really going to work out to be of any real value since it’s only going to be found on the utter extreme limits of the flight envelope. MiG-1.42 also has greater range (as does F-15 and more then one other aircraft), F-22 is pretty short legged for how big it is.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Well, it definitely isn't a bad plane, and a lot of cheaper, which is why I'm wondering about grabbing the plane to replace my F-15s altogether.

But isn't the MIG-31M still faster at full power? Plus, I'm not sure if that plasma stealth thing works.

MiG-31 is faster by all of .23 mach factor, basically that’s irrelevant and MiG 1.42 will have better acceleration. Once you go past mach 2.5-2.6 you can't use a bubble canopy anymore and thats unacceptabul for a multi role fighter. MiG-31 is just an interceptor, and I have the JF-103 and other projects for that role.

I’m working on the assumption that plasma stealth is only used to reduce the RCS of the radar antenna when it’s not being used. Anything more then that is implausible. Effectively the plane is low observable on the lines of Eurofighter.

Steve wrote:Okay.... wait a minute. You're an island in the middle of the ocean roughly between Old Continent, the Crater Archipelago, and Veleria. You are in fact nicely placed to be a focus point of intercontinental trade, especially in the days of sail when ships often needed safe harbors. It does not make that much sense for you to not have a maritime tradition. A withered one, yes, since you've been forced to become a virtual autarky by the world's condemnation of your slavery practices. But the mere fact you'd need sea-lane communications with South Veleria indicates you should have a decent maritime capability, at least for your overall level.

135 merchant ships total, 2800 sailors, average capacity 22000 dwt a ship (roughly). That's pretty damn tiny for a nation of 105 million. There are a few yards capable of building new ships, but most of them are naval yards kept afloat by continual government purchases. Ironically the navy is the one part of the Astarian military that is fully up to first world standards, and even quite innovative at times. However it is the junior branch of the military, and not very prestigious.

As for being slap bang in the middle of things, basically if the Old Continent wanted something Velarian they sent ships to and from Velaria. Ditto with the crater Archipelago. Why would anyone bother taking a detour to visit Astaria? Most of Astaria's trade was handled by the same old world commercial houses that handled trade with Velaria.

Well time for me to post a few things Indhopal will be doing. First, I will be spending a lot of money on the new subs the FTO is building, both the guided missile sub and the smaller SSK. (Indhopal's navy is on a submarine kick at the moment, and my airforce and army are pretty much at their max size.) Also if Stas Bush keeps making good diplomatic offers I just might have to take him up on some of them (The notoriously independent ISIA might do so anyway ). I also agree fully to the final version of the peace treaty Steve posted.

I'll try to put in a big catch up post tomorrow morning that should bring Indhopal up to speed with all the new events and add a twist or two to the mess in the CFR. If you go away for a couple of days in this game, catching up on what happened seems to take just as long!

Beowulf wrote:Quantity has a quality all its own, but after a certain point, cutting costs results in so much lost capability that all your boats are, are targets. The newest Virginias are supposed to be down to only $1.9 billion.

I wouldn't say that the K-335 "Gepard"-type submarine slightly lacking munitions versus the Virginia is "so much lost capabillity". The fact that it's quiet enough not to be caught or tracked by USN, Canadian Navy or SOSUS means it won't be easy catching it in this world, not easy at all. And it's newer munitions like the USGT torpedo are a godsend for any hunter killer submarine, with the ability to target surface ships and submarines as deep as 500 m below, and what is more important, launch at such depths.

Beowulf wrote:The actual program cost $7.4 billion when terminated

I heard it was 13+ billion according to DOD released expenditures.

Sea Skimmer wrote:MiG-31 is faster by all of .23 mach factor

The MiG-1.44 would have costed $70 million by preliminary calculations. Considering the overruns on Raptor, that's almost twice cheaper, but any serial production of MFi is likely to face similar cost overruns. Needless to remind you, prelim calcs on Raptor also had it's cost at 71 million, just 1 million more than MFi. Producing such machines in reality, in my view, is almost as costly as a 5th gen fighter. Also, the MiG-31 could break it's speed limits if required by mission tasks - but it's possible the MFi could do so as well.