Enterprise 301 "The Xindi" *Spoilers*

[TheDarkling]

Interesting, you state they are important during Enterprise yet you have not proven so despite countless challenge from myself and Admiral_K to do so, this is where you are going wrong, you are basing your conclusion on assumptions whereas Admiral_K and I are basing ours upon evidence.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Interesting, you state they are important during Enterprise yet you have not proven so despite countless challenge from myself and Admiral_K to do so, this is where you are going wrong, you are basing your conclusion on assumptions...

No, you're still not getting it. My conclusions are based on deductive reasoning and auto-epistemic reasoning which is derived from observed facts and observed constants.

...whereas Admiral_K and I are basing ours upon evidence.

What evidence? Let's review your claim:

The Denobulans are still around and/or important post 2265. The fact is that this entire subject came up because there is no evidence for this claim! None whatsoever! So far, the closest you've come to providing positive evidence for their existence or involvement in TNG+ Trek is to try to invent the evidence yourselves!

[TheDarkling]

You continue to miss the point

You assert

they stopped being important.

You haven't proved they were important in the first place, you have tried and failed at ever turn and as such your entire argument comes crashing down. The fact that you didn't get what I was talking about only proves that you don't understand that you should build up to a conclusion not make haphazard guesses and then apply dubious reasoning to them.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

You continue to miss the point

You assert

they stopped being important.

You haven't proved they were important in the first place, you have tried and failed at ever turn and as such your entire argument comes crashing down. The fact that you didn't get what I was talking about only proves that you don't understand that you should build up to a conclusion not make haphazard guesses and then apply dubious reasoning to them.

I've shown you every step of the way the deductive reasoning that my conclusion is built on, and you've either gone silent or simply ignored the points I made.

Archer chose Phlox. Fine. What you insist on ignoring is that whether or not Phlox remains on Enterprise is not ultimately Archer's decision to make. As a mere Captain, he simply does not have that authority. I make that claim based on the fact that the Q'onos mission was an exceptional situation and Phlox was the only doctor present who could treat the Klingon within the limited timeframe allotted by the mission profile.

The fact that Phlox remained aboard Enterprise after the Q'onos mission would inform any reasonable person that Starfleet Command had given clearance for him to remain, instead of installing a Starfleet doctor, who could learn equally as much about alien physiology as the other department heads would learn about their particular fields.

So, we know that, because Phlox wasn't replaced after the immediate need for his services passed, and he wasn't replaced after Enterprise returned to Earth during the events of "Shockwave", and he wasn't replaced after the events of "The Expanse", he is no longer there in the emergency capacity which would've permitted Archer unilateral power in choosing his staff.

We also know that in real organizations which use a military-style chain of command, a Captain may have the luxury of requesting his staff, but does not always have the luxury of getting exactly who he asks for. The idea that Archer could retain Phlox purely on his own authority becomes even less likely when we remember that Phlox isn't even a member of Starfleet.

So, we can logically deduce that Starfleet has approved Phlox's extended service on Enterprise. But do you suppose they never even informed the Denobulan government, which must at least be aware of the IME? I don't think so. It stands to reason that the Denobulan government was informed of their IME representative's whereabouts and activities.

And since the Denobulan government (as far as we are aware) have neither recalled Phlox nor terminated his status in the IME, we can logically assume that they have no objection to Phlox's service aboard Enterprise.

Since the Denobulan government has no objection to Phlox's service aboard Enterprise, which will primarily see him treating Terran illnesses and injuries, we can logically assume that the Denobulan government feels it worthwhile to expand their knowledge of Terran medical information. This, in turn, implies that they have, or intend to form, a stable relationship with Earth and through the IME in general, similar relationships with the other participant species and their associates. (Earth being an associate of Vulcan.)

[TheDarkling]

I've shown you every step of the way the deductive reasoning that my conclusion is built on, and you've either gone silent or simply ignored the points I made.

Archer chose Phlox. Fine. What you insist on ignoring is that whether or not Phlox remains on Enterprise is not ultimately Archer's decision to make. As a mere Captain, he simply does not have that authority. I make that claim based on the fact that the Q'onos mission was an exceptional situation and Phlox was the only doctor present who could treat the Klingon within the limited timeframe allotted by the mission profile.

The fact that Phlox remained aboard Enterprise after the Q'onos mission would inform any reasonable person that Starfleet Command had given clearance for him to remain, instead of installing a Starfleet doctor, who could learn equally as much about alien physiology as the other department heads would learn about their particular fields.

So, we know that, because Phlox wasn't replaced after the immediate need for his services passed, and he wasn't replaced after Enterprise returned to Earth during the events of "Shockwave", and he wasn't replaced after the events of "The Expanse", he is no longer there in the emergency capacity which would've permitted Archer unilateral power in choosing his staff.

We also know that in real organizations which use a military-style chain of command, a Captain may have the luxury of requesting his staff, but does not always have the luxury of getting exactly who he asks for. The idea that Archer could retain Phlox purely on his own authority becomes even less likely when we remember that Phlox isn't even a member of Starfleet.

So, we can logically deduce that Starfleet has approved Phlox's extended service on Enterprise. But do you suppose they never even informed the Denobulan government, which must at least be aware of the IME? I don't think so. It stands to reason that the Denobulan government was informed of their IME representative's whereabouts and activities.

The above says SF rubber stamped Archers decision and the Denobulan government knew where Phlox was serving the IME program, I have no problem with that.

And since the Denobulan government (as far as we are aware) have neither recalled Phlox nor terminated his status in the IME, we can logically assume that they have no objection to Phlox's service aboard Enterprise.

This says the Denobulan government doesn't recall private citizens from serving aboard starships.

Since the Denobulan government has no objection to Phlox's service aboard Enterprise, which will primarily see him treating Terran illnesses and injuries, we can logically assume that the Denobulan government feels it worthwhile to expand their knowledge of Terran medical information.

No, what it indicates is that the Denobulan government is interested in swapping medical knowledge with other races is that they took part in the IME; Phlox’s posting on the Enterprise has nothing to do with it, not that I see any relevance in the above fact but let us keep matters straight.

Note: Everything above this point is really immaterial, below is where we get to relevant issues.

This, in turn, implies that they have, or intend to form, a stable relationship with Earth and through the IME in general, similar relationships with the other participant species and their associates. (Earth being an associate of Vulcan.)

And that my friend is a leap worthy of a particular Kryptonian by the name of Kal El, swapping medical information does not mean they want a closer relationship, perhaps they just think it is prudent given that they are part of the galaxy, perhaps they are mainly interested in the IME for any benefits it may bring to Denobulan medical science.

That of course is besides the point because even if we establish that this means they are interested in cooperation with the other IME races in some big way the reverse must also be true and all the IME races must want some level of cooperation, thus it is established that wanting cooperation does not merit name dropping in the 22nd Century and much closer cooperation in the 24th century also doesn't warrant name dropping thus the conclusion is cooperation with Earth doesn't mean your name gets constantly mentioned.

I still see no evidence that Denobulan enjoy an especially prominent position in the galaxy during the 22nd century and since your argument hinges on (in fact assumes exists) that prominent position your argument doesn’t hold up.

I will try to make it more simply to prevent misunderstanding on both sides.

Just point out to me what of the above shows the Denobulans to have a position above the other IME races.

If you can’t then confirm for me the Denobulans are replaceable with any other IME race except the Vulcans.

With the above taken into account we know only the Vulcans have a prominent relationship with Earth.

With that taken into account we have no basis for saying the Denobulans are prominent in the 22nd Century.

Thus when they are not prominent in the 23rd century + we have no reason to assume a change has taken place.

I have tried to break it down so we can see at which point we begin to disagree.

[Admiral_K]

I've shown you every step of the way the deductive reasoning that my conclusion is built on, and you've either gone silent or simply ignored the points I made.

Archer chose Phlox. Fine. What you insist on ignoring is that whether or not Phlox remains on Enterprise is not ultimately Archer's decision to make. As a mere Captain, he simply does not have that authority. I make that claim based on the fact that the Q'onos mission was an exceptional situation and Phlox was the only doctor present who could treat the Klingon within the limited timeframe allotted by the mission profile.

How archer recieved approval is irrelevant. The fact is Phlox wasn't "placed there" as some sort of Denobulan representative as Tupol was by the Vulcans.

The fact that Phlox remained aboard Enterprise after the Q'onos mission would inform any reasonable person that Starfleet Command had given clearance for him to remain, instead of installing a Starfleet doctor, who could learn equally as much about alien physiology as the other department heads would learn about their particular fields.

Because of Enterprise's mission, he probably would be more useful since they would be out their meeting new species. I don't see how this supports your position regarding the denobulan government.

So, we know that, because Phlox wasn't replaced after the immediate need for his services passed, and he wasn't replaced after Enterprise returned to Earth during the events of "Shockwave", and he wasn't replaced after the events of "The Expanse", he is no longer there in the emergency capacity which would've permitted Archer unilateral power in choosing his staff.

And this proves what exactly?

We also know that in real organizations which use a military-style chain of command, a Captain may have the luxury of requesting his staff, but does not always have the luxury of getting exactly who he asks for. The idea that Archer could retain Phlox purely on his own authority becomes even less likely when we remember that Phlox isn't even a member of Starfleet.

Irrelevant

So, we can logically deduce that Starfleet has approved Phlox's extended service on Enterprise. But do you suppose they never even informed the Denobulan government, which must at least be aware of the IME? I don't think so. It stands to reason that the Denobulan government was informed of their IME representative's whereabouts and activities.

Perhaps they did inform the Denobulan government, and perhaps they gave it their blessing. After all, the whole point of the IME was to learn about medicine of other species. I still don't see how that supports your position. There could be many species participating in the IME. Phlox was chose because of his great skill as a Doctor with various species, not because he was a Denobulan.

And since the Denobulan government (as far as we are aware) have neither recalled Phlox nor terminated his status in the IME, we can logically assume that they have no objection to Phlox's service aboard Enterprise.

Yes we could logcially assume they have no objection to Phlox's service. However we do not have any evidence to back this up. Denobulans may have a very loose system of government with great personal Freedom. It is entirely possible governement approval may not have been needed or required. But I digress...

Since the Denobulan government has no objection to Phlox's service aboard Enterprise, which will primarily see him treating Terran illnesses and injuries, we can logically assume that the Denobulan government feels it worthwhile to expand their knowledge of Terran medical information. This, in turn, implies that they have, or intend to form, a stable relationship with Earth and through the IME in general, similar relationships with the other participant species and their associates. (Earth being an associate of Vulcan.)

This is where it all breaks down.

You are asking us to make a tremendous leap in logic here. The whole point of the IME was to learn about other species Medicine. That doesn't mean their is a Denobulan government policy of trying to use this as some sort of political "springboard". It doesn't mean that the Denobulans are big time players in any sense.

Logically, the only thing we can tell about Denobulans are that they are most likely warp capable, what they look like, and a little bit about how their families are formed. We have next to nothing to go on with their system of government, standard policys, and political agendas. That is the main problem here.


I've already pointed out the flaw in using a lack of mentioning Denobulans as evidence that they don't exist or aren't important. If you were to film my life over the course of a week, and then break that week down into segments fitting within in ahour you probably wouldn't see me talking to a Chinese person, or talking about China. Even if you did this hundreds of times, over the course of 20 years, you could very easily NEVER see any evidence that China even exists. By your logic, we would have to assume they don't exist or aren't important.

But ofcourse we all know such a statement would be incorrect. Much like most of the statements you have made in this thread.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Since the Denobulan government has no objection to Phlox's service aboard Enterprise, which will primarily see him treating Terran illnesses and injuries, we can logically assume that the Denobulan government feels it worthwhile to expand their knowledge of Terran medical information.

No, what it indicates is that the Denobulan government is interested in swapping medical knowledge with other races is that they took part in the IME; Phlox’s posting on the Enterprise has nothing to do with it, not that I see any relevance in the above fact but let us keep matters straight.

Phlox's posting to the Enterprise has relevance because it reduces his contact with most familiar species other than Terrans. That's why it's relevant.

This, in turn, implies that they have, or intend to form, a stable relationship with Earth and through the IME in general, similar relationships with the other participant species and their associates. (Earth being an associate of Vulcan.)

And that my friend is a leap worthy of a particular Kryptonian by the name of Kal El, swapping medical information does not mean they want a closer relationship, perhaps they just think it is prudent given that they are part of the galaxy, perhaps they are mainly interested in the IME for any benefits it may bring to Denobulan medical science.

Except that, as I've just pointed out, Phlox isn't exchanging information primarily with members of the IME anymore. On Enterprise he's treating Terrans almost exclusively, aside from the random Alien of the Week. Thus, we can deduce that the Denobulans are aware of the tradeoff and find it acceptable.

That of course is besides the point because even if we establish that this means they are interested in cooperation with the other IME races in some big way the reverse must also be true and all the IME races must want some level of cooperation, thus it is established that wanting cooperation does not merit name dropping in the 22nd Century and much closer cooperation in the 24th century also doesn't warrant name dropping thus the conclusion is cooperation with Earth doesn't mean your name gets constantly mentioned.

Since we don't know who the other IME participants are, (and since they are likewise in the Core Territory of what will be the Federation) it's reasonable to deduce that they are races whose names have been dropped from time to time in the previous series. The alternative, as I've said before, is that there are 7 species who virtually disappear, instead of just the Denobulans.

I still see no evidence that Denobulan enjoy an especially prominent position in the galaxy during the 22nd century and since your argument hinges on (in fact assumes exists) that prominent position your argument doesn’t hold up.

I assume the the position of the Denobulans is on rough parity with that of the other members of the IME, though they seem to have a close relationship with Vulcan.

The IME members, again, are in the core territory of what will be the Federation. They are also active in an interspecies affiliation which predates the Federation, so it's reasonable to assume that, in part or in full, they will be among the first Federation members.

Because of this, the IME members are very likely to be species we're already familiar with.

On an interesting speculative note, the other members of the contemporary AQ neighborhood may see Earth as a sort of Vulcan protectorate, due to the fact that if Earth is a non-participant in the IME, Phlox would actually be an IME representative assigned to Vulcan.

I will try to make it more simply to prevent misunderstanding on both sides.

Just point out to me what of the above shows the Denobulans to have a position above the other IME races.

I've just pointed out that they don't necessarily have to have a position above the other races, because merely having parity of activity with the other races sets a control against which later decline can be measured.

Simple analogy: If two cars are going the same speed at stoplight 1 and only one car passes stoplight 2, you don't have to figure out that the other car did something different.
If you can’t then confirm for me the Denobulans are replaceable with any other IME race except the Vulcans.

With the above taken into account we know only the Vulcans have a prominent relationship with Earth.

With that taken into account we have no basis for saying the Denobulans are prominent in the 22nd Century.

Why not? How does Vulcan having a close relationship with Earth impact the Denobulans' level of interaction with the AQ community?

Thus when they are not prominent in the 23rd century + we have no reason to assume a change has taken place.

I have tried to break it down so we can see at which point we begin to disagree.

It would be right there, where you appear to assume that because the Romuvulcans treat Earth like a third-world protectorate, no one else interacts with Earth. But I think we're both getting a little Terracentric here. It's not just humans who never mention the Denobulans. Why is it the Vulcans never mention them? Or anyone else at all? As the example Sean gave illustrates, even the Tellarites get mentioned later, and the Tellarites have only appeared once!

The problem increases in severity each time the Denobulans put in an appearance on Enterprise. So far, IIRC, this has happened in at least one episode (Denobulan scientists, if I recall, maybe in "Breaking The Ice"). But the more exposure they receive, the more marked the decline in their presence later is bound to be.

So tell me -- even if you don't agree they're prominent right now, do you really think that in 4 more years of Enterprise they won't become so?

[TheDarkling]

Phlox's posting to the Enterprise has relevance because it reduces his contact with most familiar species other than Terrans. That's why it's relevant.

No it is not because he was already working on Earth as part as the IME, what do you think he was mostly treating there?
He probably gets to see more species because he is out and about on Enterprise.

Except that, as I've just pointed out, Phlox isn't exchanging information primarily with members of the IME anymore. On Enterprise he's treating Terrans almost exclusively, aside from the random Alien of the Week. Thus, we can deduce that the Denobulans are aware of the tradeoff and find it acceptable.

There is no trade off, he was already practicing medicine on Earth as part of the IME and no he is doing the same but on board a Starship, no trade off.

Since we don't know who the other IME participants are, (and since they are likewise in the Core Territory of what will be the Federation) it's reasonable to deduce that they are races whose names have been dropped from time to time in the previous series. The alternative, as I've said before, is that there are 7 species who virtually disappear, instead of just the Denobulans.

Figures you would go for the most idiotic explanation instead of the obvious one that they just aren't mentioned because we don't watch the Fed universe constantly and the IME isn't that important, you are proceeding from the stand point the IME being important YOU HAVE TO PROVE THIS FIRST.

You are making assumptions without proof, that alone should indicate that your argument is flawed.

I assume the the position of the Denobulans is on rough parity with that of the other members of the IME, though they seem to have a close relationship with Vulcan.

The IME members, again, are in the core territory of what will be the Federation. They are also active in an interspecies affiliation which predates the Federation, so it's reasonable to assume that, in part or in full, they will be among the first Federation members.

“reasonable to assume” and when such assumptions are all you have you have nothing, there is no proof that the IME (swap a doc program) equates to Federation (massive federal joint defence and governing institution), do exchange student programs naturally lead to a state of integration similar to that of the US federal government to its states? I'm hoping you say no and thus realise that your wild guessing doesn't hold water.

The Denobulans could just be a rank and file member of the Federation and as such along with the precedents already set by trek their non mention is not unusual.

Because of this, the IME members are very likely to be species we're already familiar with.

And you have what to back this up with?

Name 5 races mentioned on Enterprise that we are given indications that point towards this conclusion.

On an interesting speculative note, the other members of the contemporary AQ neighborhood may see Earth as a sort of Vulcan protectorate, due to the fact that if Earth is a non-participant in the IME, Phlox would actually be an IME representative assigned to Vulcan.

that was my ipression at first but as I said a few pages back I found evidence indicating Earth is a member of the IME (little Earth being part of such a program doesn't bode well for your argument that the program implies greater connections).

I've just pointed out that they don't necessarily have to have a position above the other races, because merely having parity of activity with the other races sets a control against which later decline can be measured.

Except the other races of the IME get no mention now.
No Mention now - No mention in he future

Going by that there has been no decline in IME races participation in the galaxy.

Simple analogy: If two cars are going the same speed at stoplight 1 and only one car passes stoplight 2, you don't have to figure out that the other car did something different.

See above,

No Mention now - No mention the future = No change.

If you can’t then confirm for me the Denobulans are replaceable with any other IME race except the Vulcans.

With the above taken into account we know only the Vulcans have a prominent relationship with Earth.

With that taken into account we have no basis for saying the Denobulans are prominent in the 22nd Century.

Thus when they are not prominent in the 23rd century + we have no reason to assume a change has taken place.

I have tried to break it down so we can see at which point we begin to disagree.

[Admiral_K]

The problem increases in severity each time the Denobulans put in an appearance on Enterprise. So far, IIRC, this has happened in at least one episode (Denobulan scientists, if I recall, maybe in "Breaking The Ice"). But the more exposure they receive, the more marked the decline in their presence later is bound to be.

So tell me -- even if you don't agree they're prominent right now, do you really think that in 4 more years of Enterprise they won't become so?

You just don't get it do you? The only reason they come up at all now is because Phlox is a Denobulan. Thats it. Thats all. We don't see or hear about any of the other races in the IME now do we?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

How archer recieved approval is irrelevant. The fact is Phlox wasn't "placed there" as some sort of Denobulan representative as Tupol was by the Vulcans.

You're right -- "how" is irrelevant. What's relevant is that approval was necessary and granted.

Because of Enterprise's mission, he probably would be more useful since they would be out their meeting new species. I don't see how this supports your position regarding the denobulan government.

So on one hand you're saying that we shouldn't believe Denobulans have ceased to exist "without any evidence", yet you now claim that in 60-70 years of contact between humans and other species there are no Starfleet doctors competent to perform medicine on a Terran crew. The only legitimate reason for Phlox being on the show is that no non-Klingon -- including Phlox -- had had to provide medical care to a Klingon before. Well, I'd say that makes him invaluable.

So, we know that, because Phlox wasn't replaced after the immediate need for his services passed, and he wasn't replaced after Enterprise returned to Earth during the events of "Shockwave", and he wasn't replaced after the events of "The Expanse", he is no longer there in the emergency capacity which would've permitted Archer unilateral power in choosing his staff.

And this proves what exactly?[/quote]

It proves that Phlox was picked for an emergency situation in which the one who picked him had been (temporarily) granted broad discretionary powers due to severe time limitations. In military terms, Phlox was TADed to Enterprise because he was already familiar with the patient.

Since Phlox stayed after the emergency was over, the temporary call for his services should've ended and he should've been replaced with a Terran doctor, (unless you want to totally dismiss the idea that there are Terran Starfleet medical personnel, you should realize that human doctors would be learning along with everyone else. That's sort of the point of Enterprise's original mission.)

So, since Phlox wasn't pulled, permissions had to be asked and granted so that he could stay aboard.

We also know that in real organizations which use a military-style chain of command, a Captain may have the luxury of requesting his staff, but does not always have the luxury of getting exactly who he asks for. The idea that Archer could retain Phlox purely on his own authority becomes even less likely when we remember that Phlox isn't even a member of Starfleet.

Irrelevant

Not fucking hardly. You tell me why that perfectly reasonable point isn't relevant. Don't even try to get away with a cheap fucking cop-out like that.

So, we can logically deduce that Starfleet has approved Phlox's extended service on Enterprise. But do you suppose they never even informed the Denobulan government, which must at least be aware of the IME? I don't think so. It stands to reason that the Denobulan government was informed of their IME representative's whereabouts and activities.

Perhaps they did inform the Denobulan government, and perhaps they gave it their blessing. After all, the whole point of the IME was to learn about medicine of other species. I still don't see how that supports your position. There could be many species participating in the IME. Phlox was chose because of his great skill as a Doctor with various species, not because he was a Denobulan.

You're probably right. But as I've pointed out to Darkling, Phlox is dealing primarily with two kinds of species -- Terrans, which could be handled by a Starfleet doctor -- and the AotW, which even he has usually never seen before, in which case -- again -- a Starfleet doctor would do just as well.

And since the Denobulan government (as far as we are aware) have neither recalled Phlox nor terminated his status in the IME, we can logically assume that they have no objection to Phlox's service aboard Enterprise.

Yes we could logcially assume they have no objection to Phlox's service. However we do not have any evidence to back this up. Denobulans may have a very loose system of government with great personal Freedom. It is entirely possible governement approval may not have been needed or required. But I digress...

Typically, any government that loose would make extremely slow strides in joining a larger government. Then again, it's always possible that "Denobulan" isn't the name of the species, but the name of one of their nations or states, just as "American" is not a designation for all Terrans.

Since the Denobulan government has no objection to Phlox's service aboard Enterprise, which will primarily see him treating Terran illnesses and injuries, we can logically assume that the Denobulan government feels it worthwhile to expand their knowledge of Terran medical information. This, in turn, implies that they have, or intend to form, a stable relationship with Earth and through the IME in general, similar relationships with the other participant species and their associates. (Earth being an associate of Vulcan.)

This is where it all breaks down.

You are asking us to make a tremendous leap in logic here. The whole point of the IME was to learn about other species Medicine. That doesn't mean their is a Denobulan government policy of trying to use this as some sort of political "springboard". It doesn't mean that the Denobulans are big time players in any sense.

So it's your contention that they're involved in the IME for... what? Posterity? Shits 'n' giggles?

Logically, the only thing we can tell about Denobulans are that they are most likely warp capable, what they look like, and a little bit about how their families are formed. We have next to nothing to go on with their system of government, standard policys, and political agendas. That is the main problem here.

These are also basic facts we know:

1. They're a warp-capable species.
2. They're involved in an international affiliation.
3. They are known to Terrans through the Vulcans.
4. One of their civilians is stationed to a military vessel. (Okay, fine, you don't like it called a military -- a "government-sponsored" vessel that routinely performs military and law-enforcement functions. How's that?)

I've already pointed out the flaw in using a lack of mentioning Denobulans as evidence that they don't exist or aren't important.

And I've already pointed out why doing so is not flawed reasoning.

If you were to film my life over the course of a week, and then break that week down into segments fitting within in ahour you probably wouldn't see me talking to a Chinese person, or talking about China. Even if you did this hundreds of times, over the course of 20 years, you could very easily NEVER see any evidence that China even exists. By your logic, we would have to assume they don't exist or aren't important.

But it does demonstrate that they're not particularly important to you.

But ofcourse we all know such a statement would be incorrect. <snip bullshit>

Wrong. Such a statement would be accurate to you, but politically incorrect.

Let me break this down even more simply than I already have:

1. The Andorians are important enough to be seen and mentioned in Archer's era.
2. The Denobulans are important enough to be seen and mentioned in Archer's era.
3. The Andorians are still important enough to be seen and mentioned in future eras.
4. The Denobulans are no longer important enough to be seen or mentioned in future eras.

Thus,

5. The Denobulans lost importance.

So,

6. Why do the Denobulans lose importance?

It's an open-ended question based on observed fact. Your desire to refute observed fact with nothing more than cop-outs and wishful thinking is rather embarrassing, and I do wish you'd desist.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

The problem increases in severity each time the Denobulans put in an appearance on Enterprise. So far, IIRC, this has happened in at least one episode (Denobulan scientists, if I recall, maybe in "Breaking The Ice"). But the more exposure they receive, the more marked the decline in their presence later is bound to be.

So tell me -- even if you don't agree they're prominent right now, do you really think that in 4 more years of Enterprise they won't become so?

You just don't get it do you? The only reason they come up at all now is because Phlox is a Denobulan. Thats it. Thats all. We don't see or hear about any of the other races in the IME now do we?

Right, yes. And if they had used a Rigellian civilian doctor there would be some of the same issues (why use a an alien civilian instead of a Starfleet doctor) but the issue of why his species is important enough to hear about now, but not later, wouldn't exist. As it is, the problem does exist, and gets worse the more important his species is depicted as being.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

No Mention now - No mention the future = No change.

Except that we see one every week who is important enough to serve on a Starfleet vessel despite the fact that he's a civilian taking a seat which would be properly assigned to a Starfleet doctor. What about liability in the event of malpractice? Obviously, Earth's government isn't going to subject its Starfleet personnel to a civilian physician without some good guarantees regarding that physician, and unless you subscribe to the Disney school of reality I hope you don't expect those guarantees to be nothing more than a freakish grin and promises of optimism.

No, guarantees like that only come from solid diplomatic relationships, if we are to believe that they would exist at all. Imagine a TOS era film featuring a ship whose Chief Engineer was a Pakled. Does the idea that there are no diplomatic guarantees in place still seem as plausible then?

[TheDarkling]

Except that we see one every week who is important enough to serve on a Starfleet vessel despite the fact that he's a civilian taking a seat which would be properly assigned to a Starfleet doctor. What about liability in the event of malpractice? Obviously, Earth's government isn't going to subject its Starfleet personnel to a civilian physician without some good guarantees regarding that physician, and unless you subscribe to the Disney school of reality I hope you don't expect those guarantees to be nothing more than a freakish grin and promises of optimism.

So we are back to Denobulans > IME racea now? I do wish you would pick a position and reinforce it against attack instead of hopping about to avoid your position having killing blows rained down upon it.

I assume then you think the IME lets any Tom, Dick or Harry practice medcine but when SF comes along then malpractice suits suddenly become an issue.

Phlox is there because he wants his IME posting to be on that ship and because Archer wants his IME posting to be on his ship, if an equally skilled Xenobulan (an IME race we don't hear about, insert your own name if you want) had been there instead of Phlox when the Klingon was treated then he would be posted to Enterprise now (assuming he also liked human biology like Phlox).

You continue to mistake happenstance for an indication of something bigger, if Phlox had not been on Enterprise then the Denobulans would just be another unnamed IME race, therefore they have the same status as those unnamed races thus

No mention now - No mention the future = No change.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Except that we see one every week who is important enough to serve on a Starfleet vessel despite the fact that he's a civilian taking a seat which would be properly assigned to a Starfleet doctor. What about liability in the event of malpractice? Obviously, Earth's government isn't going to subject its Starfleet personnel to a civilian physician without some good guarantees regarding that physician, and unless you subscribe to the Disney school of reality I hope you don't expect those guarantees to be nothing more than a freakish grin and promises of optimism.

So we are back to Denobulans > IME racea now?

No, we're not. We're still at Earth being on good diplomatic terms with alien species whose civilians are permitted to operate on Earth starships.

I assume then you think the IME lets any Tom, Dick or Harry practice medcine but when SF comes along then malpractice suits suddenly become an issue.

Whether or not Tom, Dick or Harry is certified out their third asshole doesn't matter if the credentials don't mean anything to the government reviewing them. The fact that Denobulan medical credentials or IME medical credentials are acceptable enough to let a Denobulan doctor practice on an Earth starship indicates that the Denobulans and Earth or Starfleet are on sufficient working terms that their medical credentials will be accepted.

Phlox is there because he wants his IME posting to be on that ship and because Archer wants his IME posting to be on his ship,

So if I want to write my novel on the deck of an aircraft carrier in the Gulf and the Captain thinks it'd be a peachy idea, too, does that mean he and I are the only ones who have any say in it?

If an equally skilled Xenobulan (an IME race we don't hear about, insert your own name if you want) had been there instead of Phlox when the Klingon was treated then he would be posted to Enterprise now (assuming he also liked human biology like Phlox).

And as I have already stated, the problem of a civilian foreign national serving in a post that should be filled by a fully cleared Starfleet doctor would still exist. And in your example, the problem of "Xenobulans" would now exist. Obviously, you have no more regard for continuity in the franchise than B&B do. Instead of just making up an entirely new species we never see or hear about later, why not use the name of a species we do hear about later? The problem is, they insisted on being creative in a place they shouldn't be.

You continue to mistake happenstance for an indication of something bigger, if Phlox had not been on Enterprise then the Denobulans would just be another unnamed IME race, therefore they have the same status as those unnamed races thus

Thus you still ignore the fact that the IME species are at the very heart of Federation space and all active enough with each other to have already formed an international association -- thus, it's very reasonable to assume that these are all -- at least mostly -- species whose names we've heard before. The Rigellians, the Denebians, the Tarkelians, etc. There's no evidence for that yet, but I've just demonstrated why that assumption is reasonalbe.

By the same reasoning, we should hear of the 'Nobs later if nothing changes.

No mention now - No mention the future = No change.

But there is mention now, and with four years left to go and "very special" Phlox episodes undoubtedly in queue, there will be even more mention before the series is done, which is why your argument falls flat on its face in a mud puddle and pisses its pants.

[TheDarkling]

. The fact that Denobulan medical credentials or IME medical credentials are acceptable enough to let a Denobulan doctor practice on an Earth starship indicates that the Denobulans and Earth or Starfleet are on sufficient working terms that their medical credentials will be accepted.

He is certified under the IME, whether he has to prove his competency before the IME or not I don't know but the issue is between earth and the IME not the Denobulans.

So if I want to write my novel on the deck of an aircraft carrier in the Gulf and the Captain thinks it'd be a peachy idea, too, does that mean he and I are the only ones who have any say in it?

I don't know, go try it

While you dodged the issue with an idiotic example the fact remains Archer picked his chief medical officer out of the IME pool and Starfleet didn't object.

And as I have already stated, the problem of a civilian foreign national serving in a post that should be filled by a fully cleared Starfleet doctor would still exist.

Meaning the Denobulans are the same as any other IME race.

And in your example, the problem of "Xenobulans" would now exist. Obviously, you have no more regard for continuity in the franchise than B&B do. Instead of just making up an entirely new species we never see or hear about later, why not use the name of a species we do hear about later? The problem is, they insisted on being creative in a place they shouldn't be.

No, I think even B&B's judgement of the fanbases intelligence wouldn't make think that people could have problem with such a non issue, obviously B&B were wrong in assuming the entire Fan base had at least reached the intellect of the average 12 year old.

Thus you still ignore the fact that the IME species are at the very heart of Federation space and all active enough with each other to have already formed an international association -- thus, it's very reasonable to assume that these are all -- at least mostly -- species whose names we've heard before. The Rigellians, the Denebians, the Tarkelians, etc. There's no evidence for that yet, but I've just demonstrated why that assumption is reasonalbe.

You have yet to prove the importance of the IME other than its a doctor exchange program, that doesn't imply a close level of cooperation and your wild guesses about the races involved is nice but since we have never gotten a mention in Enterprise we are left with the impression that IME participation doesn't make a nation important to Earth.

By the same reasoning, we should hear of the 'Nobs later if nothing changes.

Nope, you still haven't proved this current level of close cooperation exists, the IME seems relatively unimportant and has very little effect on Earth politics therefore you close link doesn't exist and so this diminishing isn't an issue (although I stress again such a link fading over time isn’t hard to grasp).

No mention now - No mention the future = No change.

But there is mention now, and with four years left to go and "very special" Phlox episodes undoubtedly in queue, there will be even more mention before the series is done, which is why your argument falls flat on its face in a mud puddle and pisses its pants.

Well your fantasies about incontinence aside (or possibly what you plan to do over the weekend??) you continue to sail past the issue again, being a member of the IME doesn't warrant a mention in the 22nd century and being a member of the Federation doesn't merit a mention in the 23rd+ centuries.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

. The fact that Denobulan medical credentials or IME medical credentials are acceptable enough to let a Denobulan doctor practice on an Earth starship indicates that the Denobulans and Earth or Starfleet are on sufficient working terms that their medical credentials will be accepted.

He is certified under the IME, whether he has to prove his competency before the IME or not I don't know but the issue is between earth and the IME not the Denobulans.

But as a non-participant in the IME, Earth still needs a diplomatic relationship with their participant species in order for it to be believable that they'd accept their credentials. It makes sense, then, that they would have a diplomatic relationship with Denobula, since a Denobulan is the only representative of the IME we've ever seen on Earth.

So if I want to write my novel on the deck of an aircraft carrier in the Gulf and the Captain thinks it'd be a peachy idea, too, does that mean he and I are the only ones who have any say in it?

I don't know, go try it

Concession accepted.

While you dodged the issue with an idiotic example the fact remains Archer picked his chief medical officer out of the IME pool and Starfleet didn't object.

The part that comes after the "and"... it's so familiar. Oh, wait -- it's my point.

And as I have already stated, the problem of a civilian foreign national serving in a post that should be filled by a fully cleared Starfleet doctor would still exist.

Meaning the Denobulans are the same as any other IME race.

No they're not, because we haven't seen a member of any other IME race, period, let alone seen one serving on a Terran government-sponsored starship. Denobulans +1, everybody else in the IME, +nuthin'.

And in your example, the problem of "Xenobulans" would now exist. Obviously, you have no more regard for continuity in the franchise than B&B do. Instead of just making up an entirely new species we never see or hear about later, why not use the name of a species we do hear about later? The problem is, they insisted on being creative in a place they shouldn't be.

No, I think even B&B's judgement of the fanbases intelligence wouldn't make think that people could have problem with such a non issue, obviously B&B were wrong in assuming the entire Fan base had at least reached the intellect of the average 12 year old.

No, their mistake was in assuming that's as far as the audience's intelligence goes. Based on your inability to recognize the problem, and the potentially even greater seriousness of this problem in the future, I would say that they pegged you about right.

Thus you still ignore the fact that the IME species are at the very heart of Federation space and all active enough with each other to have already formed an international association -- thus, it's very reasonable to assume that these are all -- at least mostly -- species whose names we've heard before. The Rigellians, the Denebians, the Tarkelians, etc. There's no evidence for that yet, but I've just demonstrated why that assumption is reasonalbe.

You have yet to prove the importance of the IME other than its a doctor exchange program, that doesn't imply a close level of cooperation and your wild guesses about the races involved is nice but since we have never gotten a mention in Enterprise we are left with the impression that IME participation doesn't make a nation important to Earth.

THEY ARE RIGHT NEXT FUCKING DOOR. DO YOU FUCKING GET IT? IT'S LIKE NOBODY IN ENGLAND EVER TALKING ABOUT SCOTLAND. DO YOU FUCKING GET IT? IT'S LIKE YOU FORGETTING WHERE YOUR FUCKING BATHROOM IS. DO YOU FUCKING GET IT? THEY ARE RIGHT NEXT DOOR.

By the same reasoning, we should hear of the 'Nobs later if nothing changes.

Nope, you still haven't proved this current level of close cooperation exists, the IME seems relatively unimportant and has very little effect on Earth politics therefore you close link doesn't exist and so this diminishing isn't an issue (although I stress again such a link fading over time isn’t hard to grasp).

Oh, Jesus fucking Christ on a happy hand grenade already! Look, if you're really this fucking clueless, or ignorant or whatever the fuck your problem is, just bow out. I've already explained in excruciating detail over and fucking over again why the Denobulans are a problem now and are going to become a bigger problem as time goes by. If you don't fucking get it, ask someone to help you read.

No mention now - No mention the future = No change.

But there is mention now, and with four years left to go and "very special" Phlox episodes undoubtedly in queue, there will be even more mention before the series is done, which is why your argument falls flat on its face in a mud puddle and pisses its pants.

Well your fantasies about incontinence aside (or possibly what you plan to do over the weekend??) you continue to sail past the issue again, being a member of the IME doesn't warrant a mention in the 22nd century and being a member of the Federation doesn't merit a mention in the 23rd+ centuries.

It doesn't fucking matter if it warrants mention or not, the fact is that they are mentioned now, they're not mentioned in previous shows, and chances are that they'll be mentioned a whole lot fucking more before Enterprise is finally brought down.

And the word that properly fits your context is "discontinuity," not "incontinence," you blithering jackass.

[TheDarkling]

But as a non-participant in the IME,

For the third and hopefully final time Earth is a participant in the IEM, please read my posts.

Earth still needs a diplomatic relationship with their participant species in order for it to be believable that they'd accept their credentials. It makes sense, then, that they would have a diplomatic relationship with Denobula, since a Denobulan is the only representative of the IME we've ever seen on Earth.

I doubt Earth has an entire IME setup just to cater to Phlox as for them having a diplomatic relationship, it is possible (and likely) but that doesn't imply a close relationship modern nations often have diplomatic relations with each other, this doesn't imply a close relationship.

Concession accepted.

*Yawn*

The part that comes after the "and"... it's so familiar. Oh, wait -- it's my point.

Your point is that because Starfleet allowed an IME member to be assigned to Starfleet they must have a close relationship and that point is bunk.

No they're not, because we haven't seen a member of any other IME race, period, let alone seen one serving on a Terran government-sponsored starship. Denobulans +1, everybody else in the IME, +nuthin'.

So now we are back to Denobulans > IME, thanks for confirming that you are blatantly dishonest or simply have no basis for your conclusion and change it as you see fit to shrug off attack.

Again random chance does not an argument make, you have yet to refute this but simply change tacks to Denobulans = all IME races and fight from there, please try again.

No, their mistake was in assuming that's as far as the audience's intelligence goes. Based on your inability to recognize the problem, and the potentially even greater seriousness of this problem in the future, I would say that they pegged you about right.

*Yawn*

I'm sure, "I know you are but what am I?" is all the rage in you social circles but please raise the bar when amongst the more intellectually mobile.

THEY ARE RIGHT NEXT FUCKING DOOR. DO YOU FUCKING GET IT? IT'S LIKE NOBODY IN ENGLAND EVER TALKING ABOUT SCOTLAND. DO YOU FUCKING GET IT? IT'S LIKE YOU FORGETTING WHERE YOUR FUCKING BATHROOM IS. DO YOU FUCKING GET IT? THEY ARE RIGHT NEXT DOOR.

The Klingons live right next door and the Humans had never even heard of them and where exactly are the Denobulans, do enlighten us as well by explaining how much closer they are compared to the other races in the IME or should I put it another way. Did that rant have a) a point or b) anything backing it up?

Oh, Jesus fucking Christ on a happy hand grenade already! Look, if you're really this fucking clueless, or ignorant or whatever the fuck your problem is, just bow out. I've already explained in excruciating detail over and fucking over again why the Denobulans are a problem now and are going to become a bigger problem as time goes by. If you don't fucking get it, ask someone to help you read.

Yes and yet you are in the minority here, do you not think it is possible it is you who has the problem?

It doesn't fucking matter if it warrants mention or not, the fact is that they are mentioned now, they're not mentioned in previous shows, and chances are that they'll be mentioned a whole lot fucking more before Enterprise is finally brought down.

No it hasn't warranted a mention of those races except those having another hook for mention (like having a crew member on board), saying it doesn't warrant a mention was clearly pointing out that it doesn't elicit a mention for those races, so I have a question.

Do you understand English?

And the word that properly fits your context is "discontinuity," not "incontinence," you blithering jackass.

I guess not

Main Entry: 1in•con•ti•nent
Pronunciation: (")in-'kän-t&n-&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin incontinent-, incontinens, from in- + continent-, continens continent
Date: 14th century
: not continent: as a (1) : lacking self-restraint (2) : not being under control b : unable to retain a bodily discharge (as urine) voluntarily

Now think really hard and figure out how that relates to

falls flat on its face in a mud puddle and pisses its pants.

gee you must just feel about two inches tall, what a shame

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

But as a non-participant in the IME,

For the third and hopefully final time Earth is a participant in the IEM, please read my posts.

Hold it right there, sonny. I seem to recall, from Page 7 of this thread:

Upon reviewing Broken Bow and Stigma, I have reached some shaky conclusions - there are 8 races involved in the exchange program and humans are not one of them!

(Emphasis mine.)

You were saying something about making up one's mind? Hmm?

Earth still needs a diplomatic relationship with their participant species in order for it to be believable that they'd accept their credentials. It makes sense, then, that they would have a diplomatic relationship with Denobula, since a Denobulan is the only representative of the IME we've ever seen on Earth.

I doubt Earth has an entire IME setup just to cater to Phlox as for them having a diplomatic relationship, it is possible (and likely) but that doesn't imply a close relationship modern nations often have diplomatic relations with each other, this doesn't imply a close relationship.

Modern nations do not often post civilians on each other's naval vessels.

Concession accepted.

*Yawn*

Open wider, I've got something to plug that hole.

The part that comes after the "and"... it's so familiar. Oh, wait -- it's my point.

Your point is that because Starfleet allowed an IME member to be assigned to Starfleet they must have a close relationship and that point is bunk.

Mind giving a reason why that point is "bunk", or do you think unsupported claims will do?

No they're not, because we haven't seen a member of any other IME race, period, let alone seen one serving on a Terran government-sponsored starship. Denobulans +1, everybody else in the IME, +nuthin'.

So now we are back to Denobulans > IME, thanks for confirming that you are blatantly dishonest or simply have no basis for your conclusion and change it as you see fit to shrug off attack.

Again random chance does not an argument make, you have yet to refute this but simply change tacks to Denobulans = all IME races and fight from there, please try again.

It's only random chance if you refuse to apply reasoning to it. I'm curious about why you refuse to apply reason.

No, their mistake was in assuming that's as far as the audience's intelligence goes. Based on your inability to recognize the problem, and the potentially even greater seriousness of this problem in the future, I would say that they pegged you about right.

*Yawn*

Stop coming on to me and say something meaningful.

I'm sure, "I know you are but what am I?" is all the rage in you social circles but please raise the bar when amongst the more intellectually mobile.

When I find myself amongst the more intellectually mobile, you can be sure I will.

THEY ARE RIGHT NEXT FUCKING DOOR. DO YOU FUCKING GET IT? IT'S LIKE NOBODY IN ENGLAND EVER TALKING ABOUT SCOTLAND. DO YOU FUCKING GET IT? IT'S LIKE YOU FORGETTING WHERE YOUR FUCKING BATHROOM IS. DO YOU FUCKING GET IT? THEY ARE RIGHT NEXT DOOR.

The Klingons live right next door and the Humans had never even heard of them and where exactly are the Denobulans, do enlighten us as well by explaining how much closer they are compared to the other races in the IME or should I put it another way. Did that rant have a) a point or b) anything backing it up?

It had both, because humans have known of Denobulans longer than they know of Klingons, and they know them better than they know the Klingons. By 2265, Klingons are old fucking hat, so the Denobulans should at least be familiar -- if they're still interacting with the Feds. They're not... so they're not.

Oh, Jesus fucking Christ on a happy hand grenade already! Look, if you're really this fucking clueless, or ignorant or whatever the fuck your problem is, just bow out. I've already explained in excruciating detail over and fucking over again why the Denobulans are a problem now and are going to become a bigger problem as time goes by. If you don't fucking get it, ask someone to help you read.

Yes and yet you are in the minority here, do you not think it is possible it is you who has the problem?

Appeal to Popularity now? What, are you going down the fucking catalog of logical fallacies one by one?

It doesn't fucking matter if it warrants mention or not, the fact is that they are mentioned now, they're not mentioned in previous shows, and chances are that they'll be mentioned a whole lot fucking more before Enterprise is finally brought down.

No it hasn't warranted a mention of those races except those having another hook for mention (like having a crew member on board), saying it doesn't warrant a mention was clearly pointing out that it doesn't elicit a mention for those races, so I have a question.

Do you understand English?

Yes. Were you trying to use it just then?

And the word that properly fits your context is "discontinuity," not "incontinence," you blithering jackass.

I guess not

Main Entry: 1in•con•ti•nent
Pronunciation: (")in-'kän-t&n-&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin incontinent-, incontinens, from in- + continent-, continens continent
Date: 14th century
: not continent: as a (1) : lacking self-restraint (2) : not being under control b : unable to retain a bodily discharge (as urine) voluntarily

Now think really hard and figure out how that relates to

falls flat on its face in a mud puddle and pisses its pants.

gee you must just feel about two inches tall, what a shame

Ah, I see. So you were merely nitpicking a tangent instead of addressing a point -- what's worse, you weren't even nitpicking the tangent you were quoting. Brilliant.

[TheDarkling]

You were saying something about making up one's mind? Hmm?

Check the bottom of that post

Edit: I found evidence that humans are in the exchange program, which means 9 is the lower limit on species involved.

And I have said it several times since, this just confirms that you aren't reading my post so it is little wonder you don’t understand what I am saying.

Modern nations do not often post civilians on each other's naval vessels.

So did you not read what you quoted or did you just fail to understand it?

Diplomatic relations between nations are not an important symbol nor do they indicate close relations.

Mind giving a reason why that point is "bunk", or do you think unsupported claims will do?

Ref: Last three pages of this thread.

It's only random chance if you refuse to apply reasoning to it. I'm curious about why you refuse to apply reason.

I don't, it cuold have been any IME race therefore the level of cooperation necessary is IME cooperation, since that level of cooperation doesn't get a race mentioned in the 22nd century I don't view a know mention of that race in 23+ important, or to put it more simply - we hear of the Denobulans only because of Phlox and snce only random chance dictating it being Phlox you entire argument is based on random chance.

Stop coming on to me and say something meaningful.

You are the one that wanted to put something in my mouth.

It had both, because humans have known of Denobulans longer than they know of Klingons, and they know them better than they know the Klingons. By 2265, Klingons are old fucking hat, so the Denobulans should at least be familiar -- if they're still interacting with the Feds. They're not... so they're not.

I'm sure the USSR got more mention during the cold war that Jamaica did even though Jamaica is both closer, more familiar and had been known longer, the bigger the nation (and the greater it influence) the more it is going to come up in conversation, The Klingon Empire is one of about 8 major nations in Trek whereas the Denobulans are just one of 150 members in the Federation.

Appeal to Popularity now? What, are you going down the fucking catalog of logical fallacies one by one?

You made out as if I had mental problems and I simply pointed out it is more probable you have such problems than everyone else in the thread does, I was not saying I am right because more people hold my position (I am right for a whole host of other reasons though).

Ah, I see. So you were merely nitpicking a tangent instead of addressing a point -- what's worse, you weren't even nitpicking the tangent you were quoting. Brilliant.

I wasn't nitpicking at all I was casting derision on your rather crass imagery and that was only after I had addressed the issue at hand (I also quoted the correct section).

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

You were saying something about making up one's mind? Hmm?

Check the bottom of that post

Edit: I found evidence that humans are in the exchange program, which means 9 is the lower limit on species involved.

And I have said it several times since, this just confirms that you aren't reading my post so it is little wonder you don’t understand what I am saying.

So there's a diplomatic connection between Earth and Denobula. That's interesting.

Modern nations do not often post civilians on each other's naval vessels.

So did you not read what you quoted or did you just fail to understand it?

Diplomatic relations between nations are not an important symbol nor do they indicate close relations.

So when I say that it's unusual for nations to post civilians to each others' militaries, you think that dimplomatic relations between said nations are a total non-factor...

Mind giving a reason why that point is "bunk", or do you think unsupported claims will do?

Ref: Last three pages of this thread.

That wasn't vague at all. Not to mention that you never, to my knowledge, posted anything but cop-outs and silence on that issue anywhere in this thread.

It's only random chance if you refuse to apply reasoning to it. I'm curious about why you refuse to apply reason.

I don't, it cuold have been any IME race therefore the level of cooperation necessary is IME cooperation, since that level of cooperation doesn't get a race mentioned in the 22nd century I don't view a know mention of that race in 23+ important, or to put it more simply - we hear of the Denobulans only because of Phlox and snce only random chance dictating it being Phlox you entire argument is based on random chance.

No, random chance only enters the argument when you try to use it as a rebuttal. That's like saying that it's only random chance that a bowling ball will fall toward the ground if you drop it from a skyscraper, because if you had dropped something else the bowling ball wouldn't have fallen.

Any alien species whose name we never hear after 2265 which would be represented by a civilian serving on a Starfleet ship would present the same problems the Denobulans do. The basic problem is that by DS9 we know the names of the Federation's core planets. Not all of them, but the majority of them. We certainly know the names of the ones humans have been in contact the longest. Humans have been in contact with the Denobulans almost as long as the Vulcans, so we should certainly be as familiar with them in the 2370s as we are in the 2150s unless something changes between the two time periods.

Stop coming on to me and say something meaningful.

You are the one that wanted to put something in my mouth.

I can't help it. Stupidity is cute.

It had both, because humans have known of Denobulans longer than they know of Klingons, and they know them better than they know the Klingons. By 2265, Klingons are old fucking hat, so the Denobulans should at least be familiar -- if they're still interacting with the Feds. They're not... so they're not.

I'm sure the USSR got more mention during the cold war that Jamaica did even though Jamaica is both closer, more familiar and had been known longer, the bigger the nation (and the greater it influence) the more it is going to come up in conversation, The Klingon Empire is one of about 8 major nations in Trek whereas the Denobulans are just one of 150 members in the Federation.

Except that (God, do I have to keep telling you this? How long until you get it?) the Denobulans are a major nation in the Enterprise era, and with the continued exposure they're likely to get through the remainder of the series, will likely become even more so.

Appeal to Popularity now? What, are you going down the fucking catalog of logical fallacies one by one?

You made out as if I had mental problems and I simply pointed out it is more probable you have such problems than everyone else in the thread does, I was not saying I am right because more people hold my position (I am right for a whole host of other reasons though).

In other words, an appeal to popularity, just like I said, unless you mean to suggest that it's possible that all the doctors in asylums are really the crazy ones...

[TheDarkling]

So there's a diplomatic connection between Earth and Denobula. That's interesting.

No more so than the other IME races.

So when I say that it's unusual for nations to post civilians to each others' militaries, you think that dimplomatic relations between said nations are a total non-factor...

Yu are still viewing this as some sort of officer exchange program (a member of the RN serving aboard a USN vessel) instead of a civilian doctor being part of a program that sees him stationed on a survey vessel.

Phlox was not ordered into the IME and is a civilian. Starfleet paints itself as a science institute with ships and so Phlox is a civilian filling out his tenure ni the exchange program onboard a starship, he isn't in the military and is still in the IME.

The reasons that only close allied nations share personnel is for security and to prevent a conflict of interest, the first doesn't apply because the Enterprise doesn't have any secret things on it(because everyone else is more advanced) and conflict of interest isn't possible because Earth isn't capable of going to war with any planet that has a military with which to defend itself and the Enterprise is a survey ship (or was at the outset).

That wasn't vague at all. Not to mention that you never, to my knowledge, posted anything but cop-outs and silence on that issue anywhere in this thread.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

No, random chance only enters the argument when you try to use it as a rebuttal. That's like saying that it's only random chance that a bowling ball will fall toward the ground if you drop it from a skyscraper, because if you had dropped something else the bowling ball wouldn't have fallen.

No it is like me saying that if a drop a bowling ball observing its fall then declaring that the fact that it fell makes the ball special, which is exactly what you are doing my the way(well half the time but you do alter your argument to the other version every so often_.

Any alien species whose name we never hear after 2265 which would be represented by a civilian serving on a Starfleet ship would present the same problems the Denobulans do.

In your mind, yes no doubt.

The basic problem is that by DS9 we know the names of the Federation's core planets. Not all of them, but the majority of them. We certainly know the names of the ones humans have been in contact the longest. Humans have been in contact with the Denobulans almost as long as the Vulcans, so we should certainly be as familiar with them in the 2370s as we are in the 2150s unless something changes between the two time periods.

If I gave an alien a piece of paper describing three EU nations that were founding members and 5 that joined later the aliens would conclude they knew all the founding members of the EU however that would be incorrect.

You are stating that the founding members we have heard of (name those again please because I don't recall any mention of who founded the Federation) are the only ones that exist because surely if they existed we would have heard of them because we have heard of all the founding members, that is circular reasoning and it is flawed.

You can't justify your conclusion when you need you conclusion to arrive at your conclusion.

And I will state this again so hopefully its plain, how do you know we have heard about all of the founding members? And your answer can't be "because I think we would have by now"

Except that (God, do I have to keep telling you this? How long until you get it?) the Denobulans are a major nation in the Enterprise era, and with the continued exposure they're likely to get through the remainder of the series, will likely become even more so.

I will "get it" when you "prove it" but your continued inability to do so leads me to believe you can't.

In other words, an appeal to popularity, just like I said, unless you mean to suggest that it's possible that all the doctors in asylums are really the crazy ones...

While your description of this place as an asylum is somewhat apt you do of course realise that you are taking a worthless case, if someone claimed that men and women are roughly equal in number would you use the population of an all boys school to prove them incorrect?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

So there's a diplomatic connection between Earth and Denobula. That's interesting.

No more so than the other IME races.

Definitely more so, because only Denobula and Vulcan (say it with me) have personnel stationed on a paramilitary Earth vessel. Yes, there are differences -- Phlox is a civilian of his nation and T'Pol only recently became a civilian of hers, but the relevant fact is that neither of them are Starfleet personnel.

So when I say that it's unusual for nations to post civilians to each others' militaries, you think that dimplomatic relations between said nations are a total non-factor...

Yu are still viewing this as some sort of officer exchange program (a member of the RN serving aboard a USN vessel) instead of a civilian doctor being part of a program that sees him stationed on a survey vessel.

That's because Enterprise is not a private ship commissioned by some university or something. It's government-funded, government-chartered and carries out diplomatic and military functions. For all intents and purposes, it is a military vessel, whether Starfleet or you choose to admit that fact or not.

Phlox was not ordered into the IME and is a civilian. Starfleet paints itself as a science institute with ships and so Phlox is a civilian filling out his tenure ni the exchange program onboard a starship, he isn't in the military and is still in the IME.

However Starfleet paints itself, it is a military organization. The fact that it follows every other convention of a military organization deems it extremely likely that it follows similar protocols with regard to civilians and foreign nationals in its installations and aboard its ships. The only plausible explanation for why Phlox was taken on the Q'onos mission that doesn't require such permissions and protocols be followed is that the Klingon was also a civilian foreign national and Phlox was there in the capacity of his personal physician. Anything beyond that must by any reasonable standard require that Phlox receives clearance from Starfleet, which must base the requirements for such clearances on guidelines provided to them by the United Earth government. Denobula would certainly be aware of such guidelines as well.

The reasons that only close allied nations share personnel is for security and to prevent a conflict of interest, the first doesn't apply because the Enterprise doesn't have any secret things on it

They don't? They have the only Terran Warp 5 engine and we're reminded over and over again how advanced their technology is. For fuck's sake, Enterprise is supposedly a technological testbed, and you don't think security is an issue?

(because everyone else is more advanced)

Judging by what I've seen, I'd say not by much.

and conflict of interest isn't possible because Earth isn't capable of going to war with any planet that has a military with which to defend itself and the Enterprise is a survey ship (or was at the outset).

Yeah, lots of survey ships make a habit of dicing with the Klingons, the Romulans, the Nausicaans...

That wasn't vague at all. Not to mention that you never, to my knowledge, posted anything but cop-outs and silence on that issue anywhere in this thread.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Wishful. Thinking.

No, random chance only enters the argument when you try to use it as a rebuttal. That's like saying that it's only random chance that a bowling ball will fall toward the ground if you drop it from a skyscraper, because if you had dropped something else the bowling ball wouldn't have fallen.

No it is like me saying that if a drop a bowling ball observing its fall then declaring that the fact that it fell makes the ball special, which is exactly what you are doing my the way(well half the time but you do alter your argument to the other version every so often_.

No, what I'm saying is that the ball fell. You're saying it didn't, even though you saw it in my hand a minute ago and it's nowhere to be seen now.

Any alien species whose name we never hear after 2265 which would be represented by a civilian serving on a Starfleet ship would present the same problems the Denobulans do.

In your mind, yes no doubt.

Here, let me pretend to be impressed by your rapier wit.

The basic problem is that by DS9 we know the names of the Federation's core planets. Not all of them, but the majority of them. We certainly know the names of the ones humans have been in contact the longest. Humans have been in contact with the Denobulans almost as long as the Vulcans, so we should certainly be as familiar with them in the 2370s as we are in the 2150s unless something changes between the two time periods.

If I gave an alien a piece of paper describing three EU nations that were founding members and 5 that joined later the aliens would conclude they knew all the founding members of the EU however that would be incorrect.

No, they'd conclude they knew of the important ones. And since it's logical that you'd choose the names of important EU nations, they'd be right.

You are stating that the founding members we have heard of (name those again please because I don't recall any mention of who founded the Federation) are the only ones that exist because surely if they existed we would have heard of them because we have heard of all the founding members, that is circular reasoning and it is flawed.

Terrans. Vulcans. Andorians. Tellarites. Possibly Alpha Centauri. I believe those are them, just off the top of my head. And no, I'm not saying that only those members exist. I'm saying that we know of the oldest Federation members because they tend to come up every so often. Since they are all located relatively close to each other, and to Earth, they are more than likely 5 of the 9 members of the IME. Since Denobulans are members as well, that makes 6. Denebia is also mentioned indirectly several times as far back as TOS, though it's not clear whether they're a Federation member. But they are known to both Terrans and Klingons that far back, so they are likely number 7. We're running out of candidates for "unknown species" rather quickly aren't we? And these are just off the top of my head. I'm willing to bet money that there are 2 more names mentioned at least once in TOS that meet the profile of the name "Denebians" -- the Saurians, perhaps, as number 8?

The point is that all of those species are familiar in TOS, suggesting interaction with them in Archer's time. Since the IME is a likely candidate for such interaction, there's your other 8 species. They're familiar from Archer's time to TOS, but the Denobulans are not.

You can't justify your conclusion when you need you conclusion to arrive at your conclusion.

I'm not using my conclusion to arrive at my conclusion. I'm using a premise -- that the Denobulans are seen and heard in Archer's time and neither seen nor heard beyond Archer's time -- to arrive at my conclusion -- that the Denobulans' interstellar activity ceased. I've used solid, textbook reasoning to demonstrate the connection between the premise and the conclusion. If you don't understand that reasoning despite the fact that I provided a citation for it, that's your problem. Your lack of comprehension or refusal to concede does not invalidate my conclusion in the slightest.

And I will state this again so hopefully its plain, how do you know we have heard about all of the founding members? And your answer can't be "because I think we would have by now"

Why not? I've already cited the validity of auto-epistemic reasoning. Again, your refusal to accept the validity of this form of reasoning does not invalidate it.

Except that (God, do I have to keep telling you this? How long until you get it?) the Denobulans are a major nation in the Enterprise era, and with the continued exposure they're likely to get through the remainder of the series, will likely become even more so.

I will "get it" when you "prove it" but your continued inability to do so leads me to believe you can't.

Get a second opinion from an outside party then. I'm tired of demonstrating the validity of the argument to someone who refuses to acknowledge said validity.

In other words, an appeal to popularity, just like I said, unless you mean to suggest that it's possible that all the doctors in asylums are really the crazy ones...

While your description of this place as an asylum is somewhat apt you do of course realise that you are taking a worthless case, if someone claimed that men and women are roughly equal in number would you use the population of an all boys school to prove them incorrect?

No, I wouldn't. I'd look at the number as it stands. But tell me, would you have me add the number of boys and girls that weren't counted? Because that's what you'd like to do with the Denobulans -- admit evidence of their presence beyond ENT that simply does not exist.

Statement regarding Trek canon: it is a widely accepted rule that if you don't see it on-screen, it doesn't exist.

Thus, what we don't see is not admissible as evidence in debate, and thus it is a canon fact that the Denobulans are never seen, heard, or spoken of beyond Archer's era. End. Of. Story.

[TheDarkling]

Definitely more so, because only Denobula and Vulcan (say it with me) have personnel stationed on a paramilitary Earth vessel. Yes, there are differences -- Phlox is a civilian of his nation and T'Pol only recently became a civilian of hers, but the relevant fact is that neither of them are Starfleet personnel.

Already dealt with.

That's because Enterprise is not a private ship commissioned by some university or something. It's government-funded, government-chartered and carries out diplomatic and military functions. For all intents and purposes, it is a military vessel, whether Starfleet or you choose to admit that fact or not.

The fact is Starfleet doesn't think of it as a military, therefore they are not bound to use the same sorts of protocols as a military would, therefore your assumption that they must have close realstions because any military would fails because those setting the rules don't see it as a military.

They don't? They have the only Terran Warp 5 engine and we're reminded over and over again how advanced their technology is. For fuck's sake, Enterprise is supposedly a technological testbed, and you don't think security is an issue?

No it isn't, like I said spying is unlikely because there is little use in it, not only that but I doubt starfleet assumes ever civilian of another race that they see is a potential spy.

Yeah, lots of survey ships make a habit of dicing with the Klingons, the Romulans, the Nausicaans...

The klingons and Romulans engaged enterprise not the other way around and the Nausicaans was a rescue mission (which Admiral Forrest pointed out he regretted assigning Enterprise to but tat he had little choice).

Enterprise primary function is nt military, everyone at starfleet sees it as non military thus they treat it in a no military fashion.

No, they'd conclude they knew of the important ones. And since it's logical that you'd choose the names of important EU nations, they'd be right.

Why is that logical, maybe the first oens that came to my miond were those because I have friends in hose countries i.e a direct link similiar to the Enterprise situation.

Your assumptions prove nothing.

Terrans. Vulcans. Andorians. Tellarites. Possibly Alpha Centauri.

I assume you have something to back that up??

I believe those are them, just off the top of my head. And no, I'm not saying that only those members exist. I'm saying that we know of the oldest Federation members because they tend to come up every so often. Since they are all located relatively close to each other, and to Earth, they are more than likely 5 of the 9 members of the IME.

Proof over these races being near Earth since we haven't seen there homeworlds visited.

Since Denobulans are members as well, that makes 6.

No it doesn't, Archer knew nothign about Tellerites or Andorians, you would think he would know abuot races that Earth has close diplomatic contact with, so that sends th IME number back down to 4 and I see no proof these Alpha Centauri exist so tat sends it back to 3.

Denebia is also mentioned indirectly several times as far back as TOS, though it's not clear whether they're a Federation member. But they are known to both Terrans and Klingons that far back, so they are likely number 7.

That would be Four, however first let us have you produce evidence the Denebians exist, then prove they are federation members.

Since you have only wild guesses towards tat the count remains at 3.

We're running out of candidates for "unknown species" rather quickly aren't we?

No not unless the IME is such a close knit community that half the members haven't heard of the rest in which case your argument dies a painful and slow death anyway.

And these are just off the top of my head. I'm willing to bet money that there are 2 more names mentioned at least once in TOS that meet the profile of the name "Denebians" -- the Saurians, perhaps, as number 8?

Your wild guesses based upon names we hear he all well and good but you have no proof those races are Fed members, let alone early fed memebrs as if that translate to IME memebrship and finally 9 is a low end limit not a total number.

The point is that all of those species are familiar in TOS, suggesting interaction with them in Archer's time. Since the IME is a likely candidate for such interaction, there's your other 8 species. They're familiar from Archer's time to TOS, but the Denobulans are not.

And the 100 years inbetween Archer and Kirk couldn't have yielded them?

Yet another assumption for the pile but snice I have already torn down your previus ones we shouldn't have arrived here anyway.

I'm not using my conclusion to arrive at my conclusion. I'm using a premise -- that the Denobulans are seen and heard in Archer's time and neither seen nor heard beyond Archer's time -- to arrive at my conclusion -- that the Denobulans' interstellar activity ceased.

No because when pointed out it is a fluke they are mentined in Archers time you say it isn't because of teh special realtionship, however you cannot prove this special realtionship except to pooint out they are mentioned.

Then of course we have the point that the Denobulans' none mention in the future isn't that unusual and we find out you still have nothing on which to base your conclusion.

Why not? I've already cited the validity of auto-epistemic reasoning. Again, your refusal to accept the validity of this form of reasoning does not invalidate it.

If p were true, then I would know that p.
I don't know that p.
Therefore, p is false

That is what you ascribe to however I don't agree that you have "If p were true, then I would know that p. ", as in the Denoubulamns were about they would be mentioned.

Since you don't have that you can't prove them not to be about, you are doing somehting similar to create your close realtionship however you are applying your motives and reasoning to starfleet which also doesn't work.

Get a second opinion from an outside party then. I'm tired of demonstrating the validity of the argument to someone who refuses to acknowledge said validity.

I already do and they agree with me, however I don't really see what that proves because any second opinion is not automatically the correct one.

Statement regarding Trek canon: it is a widely accepted rule that if you don't see it on-screen, it doesn't exist.

Then the Denebians don't exist since we have never seen one and they only get one mentioned in TNG+ and that mention is from a Klingon when they are in the past, thus there is no evidence they still exist either, and the Deltans and so on.

Thus, what we don't see is not admissible as evidence in debate, and thus it is a canon fact that the Denobulans are never seen, heard, or spoken of beyond Archer's era. End. Of. Story.

Going by that idiotic reasoning we can't assume anything happened to them because we didn't see it.

[Admiral_K]

You people do realize that with all the quotes this thread has become essentially unreadable.

Just quit Duke. You can't possibly win your argument. You have no evidence, not even circumstantial evidence to support your case.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Okay, fine; I can't see to convince you two lunkheads of the reasoning behind my argument (even though I am using sound reasoning) and there's no way in hell you two are going to convince me with the reasoning you've been using. So ask someone who hasn't been participating in the argument to take a look at it -- I'll accept sound reasoning, but neither of you clowns has provided it, nor do either of you appear to be capable of doing so.