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To be honest, I enjoyed RLM's Phantom Menace Review, and I can understand that he didn't like the movie based on his subjective desires on what the movie should have been. I think he did make a few good points here and there. It's been a little while since I last saw the review, but from memory, I liked the following points:

1) The opening is kinda dull. Doesn't really capture the audience's interest or give them a clear picture of what's going on. Yes, I know the opening crawl lays things out for us well enough and in retrospect, I know what's going on. But when I first saw the film, I was kinda confused what it was all about. I must have been one of the stupid ones.

2) The characters fail to be interesting to the audience. For the record, I liked Qui-gon and I think he stole the film. But they're all really up tight and disinteresting characters. There were also some weird lines in the movie that I didn't much care for, unrelated to RLM's review. I'm thinking toward the end when the queen repeated something she had said during the briefing to retake Theed. (During the briefing, she told everyone that they believed the Viceroy would be in the throne room. During the attack on the palace, when they seized the hangar, she repeated that. I thought it was...kinda dumb and unnecessary.)

3) I did like his point about what the Obi-wan character should/could have been. There are a lot of ways to handle his character and I thought his idea that Obi-wan should have been the young, impulsive jedi that saw potential in Anakin and trained him to everyone's doom was pretty good. I also like Raynor's analysis of how the Obi-wan and Qui-gon characters fleshed out in the context of a stubborn, arrogant Jedi Order. It works. I think many people missed it though, possibly because the level of acting makes it difficult for the audience to really empathize. Why they missed that would be a good point to analyze.

But yeah, the other nitpicks of his are just those. It seems that a lot of movie reviews done by random internet personalities devolve into nitpicks most of the time, which is disappointing. RLM's Attack of the Clones review is more of the same, really. I doubt Jim will find anything redeeming in that, although I would advise him to keep an eye out towards the end of it. At the end of the AotC review, there's a montage comparing how the PT and the OT deal with the nature of the force, and how they both seemed to set the tone for both trilogies. It was something I felt was pretty good.

AkalabethAngel wrote:
Yes that is his over all point. People can't connect with these movies because no one cares about any of the characters because they're all a bunch of jackasses.

Again, a totally subjective point, lots of people like the characters and lots don't. Saying 'People can't connect' is silly, some obviously do and just don't agree with you.

They don't emote. They're dumb idiots. And we can't relate to them at all. Sorry to say but in ROTS one of the few times I actually cared is when Jimmy Smits sees the Jedi kid bite it at the temple and actually shouts "NO" because he actually cares about a fellow human-alien being. Compare this scene to the scene where Obi Wan watched a holorecording and delivers some emotionless, dry, boring dialogue about "I can't bear to watch any more". Why the hell should I care? Obi Wan should be weeping. He should be trashing the place.

There are indeed weak parts of the film, I don't think anyone is putting them up as an example of perfection.

Okay, so let me get this straight. "the bad guys that were clearly introduced as bad guys, they are greedy corporations". And then you follows this up by saying they're not "simple, dry, or boring". Hahahha. That's funny.

Generally when confronted with a simple theme of evil, greedy, will do anything for more money, bad guys; yeah I wait until I see what is happening in the film instead of ponder their inner philosophical reasoning of why they are evil, greedy, bad guys unless it's one of those movies that goes more into the motivations of the villains than the hero. In which case, in those stories, they usually render the hero into a more generalized thing instead of the villains.

When you go off on a rant on a very common story telling device, you come off as silly and nit picky.

Don't you get it. Business men with that much power, and that much money, aren't stupid.
You don't get a fleet of battleships, by being a moron. You get a job as a janitor if you're a moron.

You're silly, lots of businessmen do incredibly stupid things, Bernie Madoff comes to mind, not that they are stupid, but they are in pursuit of money so much they throw out common sense.

Yes, it is difficult. Because if we don't know what they want, we don't care. What you don't seem to understand is that the Trade Federation has it's own agenda which Palpatine is helping them with, but covertly he's really just using them to advance his own agenda.

I understand this well, and have no problem with the premise. What you don't understand is those motivations have absolutely nothing to do with the story being told and makes little sense to be put into the story line.

If the Trade Federation's agenda is never explored or made clear, why should we care about them? They have no motivations. They're just pawns of Sidious, which makes his betrayal of them in ROTS completely pointless. It's like a boss killing his own guys. They weren't betrayed, they were downsized, because they never had any plans or ambitions of their own. This stuff is important.

Besides being pattsies who most people don't care about, why the fuck would you want to care about them? The audience isn't supposed to connect with the stooges in a story, what the hell makes you think you need to? What the hell kind of stories do you read/watch?

I don't care what the theme.

lol, and this is why you fail.

The premise is not believable. And if the premise is not believable why should I give a shit about the story?

So, no where in real life has a greedy corporation sided with back channel government officials connected with power mongering and corruption? Black Water...er Trade Federation being aligned with Dick Vader...er Palpatine could never happen in real life and is not in any way believable. And, not being believable, you can't enjoy a story about it?

Yeah, you're silly.

Knife wrote:

AkalabethAngel wrote:
Yes that is his over all point. People can't connect with these movies because no one cares about any of the characters because they're all a bunch of jackasses.

Again, a totally subjective point, lots of people like the characters and lots don't. Saying 'People can't connect' is silly, some obviously do and just don't agree with you.

Well hell if you got choked up when Amidala is like "Hold me, hold me like you did on Naboo" then good for you but I prefer real people to crap dialogue and boring characters.

Okay, so let me get this straight. "the bad guys that were clearly introduced as bad guys, they are greedy corporations". And then you follows this up by saying they're not "simple, dry, or boring". Hahahha. That's funny.

Generally when confronted with a simple theme of evil, greedy, will do anything for more money, bad guys; yeah I wait until I see what is happening in the film instead of ponder their inner philosophical reasoning of why they are evil, greedy, bad guys unless it's one of those movies that goes more into the motivations of the villains than the hero. In which case, in those stories, they usually render the hero into a more generalized thing instead of the villains.

When you go off on a rant on a very common story telling device, you come off as silly and nit picky.

Silly and nit picky? On the one hand you're saying they're not simple, dry and boring. On the other hand you're saying they're a "typical greedy corporation bad guy", which, in case you have not figured it out is simple and boring. See the irony??

Yes, it is difficult. Because if we don't know what they want, we don't care. What you don't seem to understand is that the Trade Federation has it's own agenda which Palpatine is helping them with, but covertly he's really just using them to advance his own agenda.

I understand this well, and have no problem with the premise. What you don't understand is those motivations have absolutely nothing to do with the story being told and makes little sense to be put into the story line.

Dude they have EVERYTHING to do with the story. WHY ARE THEY THERE?
I mean the reason why they're there is the entire context of the opening crawl. You telling me their motivations are important enough to take up the span of the entire opening crawl and yet not be mentioned again whatsoever in the rest of the film? I don't think so.

Compare this to ANH. Leia has the plans to the Death Star, she's running for the Rebels.
TESB: Vader is obsessed with Luke.

etcetera. The crawl defines the whole story of the movie. Mentioning the TF in the opening and then not expanding upon what they're doing is stupid.

Besides being pattsies who most people don't care about, why the fuck would you want to care about them? The audience isn't supposed to connect with the stooges in a story, what the hell makes you think you need to? What the hell kind of stories do you read/watch?

Interesting ones with real human beings.
It's a sad state of affairs when even one Imperial bridge officer from the OT has more character and brains than the entire separatist/TF movement put together.

I don't care what the theme.

lol, and this is why you fail.

What you fail to grasp is that theme is no substitute for story. I can write a novel and put all kinds of themes and subtexts into the story, but if the story sucks and isn't worth reading then who cares?

The premise is not believable. And if the premise is not believable why should I give a shit about the story?

So, no where in real life has a greedy corporation sided with back channel government officials connected with power mongering and corruption? Black Water...er Trade Federation being aligned with Dick Vader...er Palpatine could never happen in real life and is not in any way believable. And, not being believable, you can't enjoy a story about it?

Here's an EASY question for you cowboy.
How is blockading and subsequently invading Naboo going to make the Trade Federation money? And where in the movie is this plan evidenced?

They don't plunder naboo.
They don't try to push some agenda in the senate (besides denial).
There's no underlying relationship explored in any depth between the Naboo and Trade Federation.
The importance of Naboo as a commercial hub is never explored or mentioned (ie the world has no appreciable value that is mentioned in the film).

So what's their plan?

Let me compare this to other greedy corporate a-hole movies.

Aliens:
Greedy corporate A-hole guy wants to smuggle aliens back to Earth for bioweapons.

Avatar
Greedy corporate A-hole guy wants fancy rock under big tree.


Both incidentally James Cameron films. But both are complete cliche, stereotypical barely developed characters. But both of them have motivation and believable ambitions. The Trade Federation has none of these things because they're a bunch of cartoon retards with no minds of their own except to take orders from hologram boy for the full extent of some 30 odd years.

AkalabethAngel wrote:
Silly and nit picky? On the one hand you're saying they're not simple, dry and boring. On the other hand you're saying they're a "typical greedy corporation bad guy", which, in case you have not figured it out is simple and boring. See the irony??

No, faceless soldiers of doom and badassery like Stormtroopers were pretty easy to figure out in the first few minutes of ANH, I didn't need detailed information of why Stormtroopers where on Imperial ships. Didn't need minutes of movie time to figure out they were the faceless enforcers of the bad guys. Similarly, I don't need a shit ton of time in TPM to explain to me that the TF are the patsies doing the dirty work for the Sith. The story really doesn't need them to be fleshed out more.

Were there mistakes in the story, could it have been better? Sure. Doesn't change the fact that all the information about who, what, when, and why the TF were there isn't already available in the movie.

Dude they have EVERYTHING to do with the story. WHY ARE THEY THERE?

They are there to invade Naboo so that the mysterious stranger they work for can gain more power back home. They are there because they made a deal that, presumably, makes them more power/money/profit by doing what the mysterious stranger wants them to do. Why the fuck do I need more than that for the story? I don't need that much detail for a Bond villain, he is there to take over the world, or steal One Million Dollars, or destroy pretty building. What movies are you watching with this level of detail on the stooges?

I mean the reason why they're there is the entire context of the opening crawl. You telling me their motivations are important enough to take up the span of the entire opening crawl and yet not be mentioned again whatsoever in the rest of the film? I don't think so.

They are important to be shown as bad guys and a reason to be there, thus given in the crawl. Greedy corporations who attack someone in protest over new taxes on them. Later in the film, we learn they are really the stooges of the main villian, HEY character growth? Guess they're not so simple and boring if they have character growth.

Compare this to ANH. Leia has the plans to the Death Star, she's running for the Rebels.
TESB: Vader is obsessed with Luke.

lol, taste of your own medicine;

But WHY does she have them. I mean the Death Star is the reason for the whole story, and we have no idea how she got them outside precious time in the crawl about it. I mean, if it is important enough to be in the crawl, surely it is important enough to develop as the plot?

See how silly you sound?

etcetera. The crawl defines the whole story of the movie. Mentioning the TF in the opening and then not expanding upon what they're doing is stupid.

Where did you get this little gem? The crawl sets up the story, gives a bit of back ground and teases a bit for the story to come.

Interesting ones with real human beings.
It's a sad state of affairs when even one Imperial bridge officer from the OT has more character and brains than the entire separatist/TF movement put together.

So many you couldn't be bothered to list one. Gotcha.

What you fail to grasp is that theme is no substitute for story.

lol, what the hell kind of fiction classes did you take? Themes are part of a story, as important as plot and characters. Themes are what gives a story that emotion and meaning you keep harping about, gives the story that connect-ability to characters you blithe about.

I can write a novel and put all kinds of themes and subtexts into the story, but if the story sucks and isn't worth reading then who cares?

Except what we have here is some people who don't like the story and nit pick it, and some who like the story and don't nit pick it, hell we even have combination's of the two.

Here's an EASY question for you cowboy.
How is blockading and subsequently invading Naboo going to make the Trade Federation money? And where in the movie is this plan evidenced?

How is blowing up Paris making money for Cobra, how is capturing Space Rockets making money for SPECTURE, how is blowing up tree's and blue cat-people making money for Earth? I don't fucking care, greedy businessmen make deal with shady government dude and they're ok with it, so.... somehow they are going to, or think they are going to, benefit from it. I'm cool with that.

Now, if they made a new Star Wars movie called, Star Wars... The Down Fall of the Trade Federation; I may indeed care about such issues. Seeing as how this movie was about following Qui Gon and meeting Anakin and Lukes freaking mother, I just don't fucking care what the inner workings of the big bad company shit heads where.

They don't plunder naboo.
They don't try to push some agenda in the senate (besides denial).
There's no underlying relationship explored in any depth between the Naboo and Trade Federation.
The importance of Naboo as a commercial hub is never explored or mentioned (ie the world has no appreciable value that is mentioned in the film).

So what's their plan?

To do what Sidious wanted them to do, and some how in that they saw profit. Not any more deep than that dude, you could look for more meaning, but it just isn't there. If you don't like the movie because the space opera just doesn't have enough depth for you, fine. Good for you dude. But if you're going to nit pick meaning, or lack of meaning, in a fucking space opera, you come off as silly.

Let me compare this to other greedy corporate a-hole movies.

Aliens:
Greedy corporate A-hole guy wants to smuggle aliens back to Earth for bioweapons.

Lol, so much deeper than making a deal with evil government dude. Yeah, you got me. hahahahahahhahaha.

Avatar
Greedy corporate A-hole guy wants fancy rock under big tree.

Seriously, this is the depth you want but have problems with big time, evil manipulator in the freaking government?

Both incidentally James Cameron films. But both are complete cliche, stereotypical barely developed characters. But both of them have motivation and believable ambitions. The Trade Federation has none of these things because they're a bunch of cartoon retards with no minds of their own except to take orders from hologram boy for the full extent of some 30 odd years.

I actually think we're getting somewhere here. You are honestly pissed that Star Wars a space opera doesn't have enough depth for you.

lol

Knife wrote: No, faceless soldiers of doom and badassery like Stormtroopers were pretty easy to figure out in the first few minutes of ANH, I didn't need detailed information of why Stormtroopers where on Imperial ships. Didn't need minutes of movie time to figure out they were the faceless enforcers of the bad guys. Similarly, I don't need a shit ton of time in TPM to explain to me that the TF are the patsies doing the dirty work for the Sith. The story really doesn't need them to be fleshed out more.

Hey. Dumbass. Figure it out.
The Trade Federation is NOT DOING THE DIRTY WORK OF THE SITH.

THE SITH ARE HELPING THE TRADE FEDERATION GET SOMETHING THAT THEY WANT.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE SITH ARE DOUBLE CROSSING THE TRADE FEDERATION.

Get it?

Wow you really are clueless.
You're also comparing Stormtroopers to the TF? No. Stormtroopers compare to droids. In ANH, Vader wants the plans back. He also wants the location of the rebel base. The Trade Federation wants what? They want to blockade a world for no appreciable reason. They want to then invade it for no appreciable reason. One world of dialogue would tell us what they're doing.

They are there to invade Naboo so that the mysterious stranger they work for can gain more power back home. They are there because they made a deal that, presumably, makes them more power/money/profit by doing what the mysterious stranger wants them to do. Why the fuck do I need more than that for the story? I don't need that much detail for a Bond villain, he is there to take over the world, or steal One Million Dollars, or destroy pretty building. What movies are you watching with this level of detail on the stooges?

WRONG.
The Trade Federation is there to help the Trade Federation. Not Sith Hologram.
Sith Hologram is pretending to help the Trade Federation, but is really using Trade Federation to help himself.

lol, taste of your own medicine;

But WHY does she have them. I mean the Death Star is the reason for the whole story, and we have no idea how she got them outside precious time in the crawl about it. I mean, if it is important enough to be in the crawl, surely it is important enough to develop as the plot?

Because she stole them.

See how silly you sound?

No. What's apparent to me is that you're unable to understand basic concepts like character motivation.

What you fail to grasp is that theme is no substitute for story.

lol, what the hell kind of fiction classes did you take? Themes are part of a story, as important as plot and characters. Themes are what gives a story that emotion and meaning you keep harping about, gives the story that connect-ability to characters you blithe about.

Themes don't give emotion. Relatable characters do. The PT has no relateable characters.

Except what we have here is some people who don't like the story and nit pick it, and some who like the story and don't nit pick it, hell we even have combination's of the two.

No, we have people who understand what a good story is. And people who are spoonfed diarreha and think that it's cake. You fall into the latter.

How is blowing up Paris making money for Cobra, how is capturing Space Rockets making money for SPECTURE, how is blowing up tree's and blue cat-people making money for Earth? I don't fucking care, greedy businessmen make deal with shady government dude and they're ok with it, so.... somehow they are going to, or think they are going to, benefit from it. I'm cool with that.

When you start to care about story, get back to me.
Until you do. Go home and watch Dragonball Z.


Goodbye.

Jim Raynor wrote:

LMSx wrote:OK, let's take a step back. Stoklasa's original point was that the easiest possible solution is to tell the Jedi to leave, we're not negotiating. Once they go back to their ship, blow them up and take care of two problems at once! Less moving parts, and so forth.

You know what? I'm not even sure he's saying that, even though I addressed this point a few posts back anyway. Seemed to me like all Stoklasa said was to admit everything to the Jedi upfront and nicely send them back to Coruscant to rat out the Trade Federation...for some reason.

I'd like you to change your response I quote just below:

This is what RLM said:

Just tell them to leave, and that you don't want to negotiate. And then when their ship flies out of your spacedock, SHOOT it with lasers!"

This is your response:

Stoklasa's suggestion is just bizarre. Does he really think that the Jedi would just kindly leave after an attempt on their lives, through a controlled docking bay where their previous ship had just been blown up?

This is a misinterpretation of what I thought was a fairly clear idea. Whatever you think of that plan, it doesn't involve screwing up the gas attempt, then politely asking the Jedi to leave.

You can talk about "low power" weapons, but I think my volley example still counts against it- it seems more likely to accidentally drop the shields on the first hit of a volley and then helplessly watch as fully powered shots that were in mid flight hit and blow up the target.

Couldn't they just power down their weapons to something the Naboo ship could handle without being quickly destroyed?

I think "dumb luck" hits the Occam's Razor square for most straightforward explanation with fewest extra conditions.

To be fair, this is not quite a "HOW DO THEY KNOW THEY'RE IN THE VENT SHAFT???ONE" variety nitpick where a tedious extra camera shot would solve the great mystery, the whole movie could have ended right there if they'd used carbon monoxide. I think it's at least worth noting.

Is carbon monoxide as quick and deadly as whatever fictional gas they used? I really don't care about this part. Again, would anyone want to have an odorless, invisible gas that we'd only know about because Qui-Gon says it's there?

Plinkett never uses these exact words, but the idea behind this scene is structurally sloppy. The clearer it is to the audience that Warning: Poison Gas!, the dumber the villains seem. I mean....you're right, the more visually exciting a poison gas attack is, the dumber narratively when the TF wants an advantage of surprise.

This one grinds my gears:

4:41
Naboo Pilot: "Shield generator's been hit!"
Plinkett: "Ooh, then suddenly it's dangerous. Hey wait, just like knowing what kind of deadly gas it is before you smell it, how does the shield generator get hit while the shields are up?"

Stoklasa goes on grasping at straws to nitpick lines that are utterly harmless and common to any scifi movie. Did he consider that hey, maybe the shields were shot down by all the laser hits the ship was taken? Enough for a shot to get through, and physically damage the shield generator underneath? No, that's too simple and sensible to accept as an explanation...

Ok, but unfortunately, the movie goes out of its way to be stupid. Here is a link.

3:53 "Shield generator's been hit!"
4:22 "Shields are gone!"

Plinkett includes both lines, BTW, in his montage. The generator was hit before the shield went down. I don't know why that is, because it would have been trivial to flip the order of lines and place them one after another: "the shields are gone.....now our generator's been hit! R2, repair it!" Or something. Whatever.

But the thing is, if we're trying to interpret this scene to give Lucas the benefit of the doubt as creator, I can't understand what tremendous benefit we really should be getting to outweigh confusing an otherwise straightforward cause-and-effect relationship. Inane trivia about Naboo shielding! woo! A far better directorial choice to spend time on that, then a clear, clean rationale for how and why the generator needs to be repaired.

It's bad plotting. The 4:22 line sidetracks the "shield drop was IMPLIED" excuse.

Sorry, "excuse" was unnecessarily antagonistic. I'd prefer to have said "idea" in that last sentence.

AkalabethAngel wrote: Hey. Dumbass. Figure it out.
The Trade Federation is NOT DOING THE DIRTY WORK OF THE SITH.

THE SITH ARE HELPING THE TRADE FEDERATION GET SOMETHING THAT THEY WANT.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE SITH ARE DOUBLE CROSSING THE TRADE FEDERATION.

Haha, you think? Here I thought I was using words like patsie and stooge for nothing. Of courses the Sith are double crossing the TF, Palpatine is the fucking villain in the movie. Out of all the motivations you should want to know, it is his. Why you are so set in knowing the inner motivations and inner workings of the thugs of the main bad guys is beyond me, unless of course, you just want to nit pick.

You're also comparing Stormtroopers to the TF? No. Stormtroopers compare to droids.

lol, you don't like my comparison. It is still valid, I wasn't comparing them as characteristics of the characters, rather as a simple plot device. We don't need to know detailed back ground information on them, they are generic plot devices described in such a way as to hit major themes. In ST case, nameless, faceless, bad ass soldiers of the machine, in the TF case, greedy corporate interests. If anything, you should be happy that the TF gets character growth when we learn the Sith are using them like bitches. You're not of course, you've already made your conclusion so no sense conceding to what actually happens if it doesn't support your conclusion, right?

In ANH, Vader wants the plans back. He also wants the location of the rebel base. The Trade Federation wants what? They want to blockade a world for no appreciable reason. They want to then invade it for no appreciable reason. One world of dialogue would tell us what they're doing.

Doesn't matter anymore than why Boba Fett does what he does in TESB, or why Jabba the Hutt does what he does in RotJ, the TF is not, nor even the characters in it, the main villain, main hero, or is it necessary for the main plot for us to know. Vader is the main villain, so we are told his motivations, Palpatine is the main villain so we learn some of his motivation, Nute Gunray is fucking Jake Ruby and besides nit pickers like you, nobody cares.

The Trade Federation is there to help the Trade Federation. Not Sith Hologram.

Hahahahhaha, you're silly. We are told, by the TF flunky, that they made a deal with the Sith. Helping themselves means HELPING the Sith. They see profit in it, I sometimes wonder if we both watched the same movie.

Sith Hologram is pretending to help the Trade Federation, but is really using Trade Federation to help himself.

I know, character growth is so cool.

Because she stole them.

You accept that simple premice and yet have trouble with 'the TF made a deal with Sidious to invade'?

No. What's apparent to me is that you're unable to understand basic concepts like character motivation.

I don't need a 100 page dissertation on character motivations, nor 70 minutes of screen time of character motivations on minor flunkies and stooges when simple symbolism and themes can easily do it for me.

Themes don't give emotion. Relatable characters do. The PT has no relateable characters.

I see, you didn't do any fiction classes, or creative writing classes, or anything of the sort. Relatable characters are that way not only because of characterization, but because of generalized themes put into the story for us to sympathize with them. Being more than, out growing the expectations of your father is an easy one in ANH, we sympathize with Luke not only because of the death of his family, death of Obi Wan, but because he dreams of things bigger than him when his uncle just wanted him to be a farmer. That makes Luke more relateable as a character because who hasn't sat at home thinking 'I'm more than this stupid job, more than they think I am'.

You have turned yourself off from all these themes in the PT and then complain the characters are flat and not relatable. Your choice but you look extremely silly making an argument about it. Who cares about theme indeed.

No, we have people who understand what a good story is. And people who are spoonfed diarreha and think that it's cake. You fall into the latter.

Ah, that elite literary analysis. Except you don't fucking care about themes, so I question your credibility of being an elite literary analyst.

When you start to care about story, get back to me.

I actually care about the story, there are certainly things in the movie that could be tightened up, changed, fixed. None of them are the drivel you bring up.

Until you do. Go home and watch Dragonball Z.

Goodbye.

lol, child, back in my day the totally worthless eye candy, plot-less, bland, garbage to watch was G-force. But thanks for the little tantrum of nerd rage. hahahahhahahaha.

Knife wrote:Doesn't matter anymore than why Boba Fett does what he does in TESB, or why Jabba the Hutt does what he does in RotJ, the TF is not, nor even the characters in it, the main villain, main hero, or is it necessary for the main plot for us to know. Vader is the main villain, so we are told his motivations, Palpatine is the main villain so we learn some of his motivation, Nute Gunray is fucking Jake Ruby and besides nit pickers like you, nobody cares.

Boba Fett wants the Bounty on Han Solo's head.
Jabba the Hutt wants Solo to pay for dumping his illegal cargo and not paying up.

Their motivations are clear

You still can't even tell me what the Trade Federation is doing there.

You see the problem? No, of course you don't. Because you're a moron.

And the Trade Federation is blockading Naboo because they don't like the new tax laws, and they hope that by threatening to squeeze the life out of a peaceful world, they'll get there way. It's an interstellar hostage situation.

AkalabethAngel wrote:

Knife wrote:Doesn't matter anymore than why Boba Fett does what he does in TESB, or why Jabba the Hutt does what he does in RotJ, the TF is not, nor even the characters in it, the main villain, main hero, or is it necessary for the main plot for us to know. Vader is the main villain, so we are told his motivations, Palpatine is the main villain so we learn some of his motivation, Nute Gunray is fucking Jake Ruby and besides nit pickers like you, nobody cares.

Boba Fett wants the Bounty on Han Solo's head.
Jabba the Hutt wants Solo to pay for dumping his illegal cargo and not paying up.

Their motivations are clear

You still can't even tell me what the Trade Federation is doing there.

You see the problem? No, of course you don't. Because you're a moron.

lol, mock rage.

I've told you a couple times, the TF is there because they made a deal with the evil genious guy. See, simple one liner like yours above, but for some reason you don't see how easy it is.

Knife wrote:

AkalabethAngel wrote:

Knife wrote:Doesn't matter anymore than why Boba Fett does what he does in TESB, or why Jabba the Hutt does what he does in RotJ, the TF is not, nor even the characters in it, the main villain, main hero, or is it necessary for the main plot for us to know. Vader is the main villain, so we are told his motivations, Palpatine is the main villain so we learn some of his motivation, Nute Gunray is fucking Jake Ruby and besides nit pickers like you, nobody cares.

Boba Fett wants the Bounty on Han Solo's head.
Jabba the Hutt wants Solo to pay for dumping his illegal cargo and not paying up.

Their motivations are clear

You still can't even tell me what the Trade Federation is doing there.

You see the problem? No, of course you don't. Because you're a moron.

lol, mock rage.

I've told you a couple times, the TF is there because they made a deal with the evil genious guy. See, simple one liner like yours above, but for some reason you don't see how easy it is.

Yeah but the difference is we know what Boba and Jabba are getting out of their motivation. Boba = money. Jabba = Revenge

We have no idea what the TF is getting, power? no taxes? less racist accents? Maybe it doesn't matter to the overall story (I think it does) but part of RLM's point was that the writing in TPM was weak. The fact that the movie even mentions space taxes let alone makes them the catalyst for the most anticipated film in history is unforgivable.

It really amuses me that certain RLM supporters fancy themselves as tasteful, analytical movie critics. When in fact the RLM review is really just a lot of low brow humor and stupid question asking. Even if you hate TPM, pick a better champion than that.

Indeed, I entered this thread due to reading the line of 'you're missing the big picture' of what was said in that review. Besides, TPM sucks, doesn't seem to really be one. People can hate the movie, I don't care, but some of this elitist movie analysis crap is just fucking silly. I don't care about themes indeed, lol.

AkalabethAngel wrote:Dude, I don't think you understand. It's not about Naboo. It's about the Tax Laws. It's a protest. The Trade Federation doesn't like tax laws, so they're blockading a world in an effort to get their way. Either that or the opening title crawl is completely irrelevant.

Palpatine was nominated for Chancellor, with an election still on the way. His election victory was only announced after the battle on Naboo had already concluded.

Furthermore, according to Jim Raynor, the whole blockade from Sidious' point of view is about garnering himself more power in the senate, correct?

I really like your wording. "According to Jim Raynor." More like clearly implied by the movie without any doubt being cast.

He's creating a crisis around naboo, to gain himself sympathy. Then when he attacks the Jedi and wants this treaty signed these acts are both intended to prolong the crisis, allowing the Senator to continue gaining power.

Yet despite this apparent need for power, when Valorum is disposed of and Palpy's put on the ballot he's got no problems getting elected. He knows the outcome of the vote before the ballots are even cast. This despite the fact that not one of a thousand representatives stepped forward to support the Queen in her appeal for help.

So the whole plot is rendered null and void. The crisis is there to gain Palpy power. But he already has enough support. So the whole blockade/treaty fiasco is utter garbage for Palpy's plans at least.

You really have trouble figuring out that Palpatine might have adapted to the heroes foiling his original plan? That maybe his original plan didn't involve Amidala coming to Coruscant and looking like the brave hero instead of just him? Or that he may not have wanted to gamble on Amidala turning on Valorum and throwing her friend under the bus? I also love how without any proof, you say that Palpatine knows the outcome of the vote before the ballots were even cast.

Jim Raynor wrote:Stoklasa spends all of a hanful of minutes (out of seventy) talking about the characters. In that handful of minutes, he demonstrated a complete ignorance about very basic things. The vast majority of his review was useless nitpicking that got things wrong just about every time. So no, I'm still not buying this excuse about his mythical "big picture" that me and everyone else who doesn't like the RLM review is supposedly missing.

Oh yes. And what was your response "these people are all liars!"?
And am I'm supposed to believe you why exactly?

Are you intentionally trying to come across as a mindless supporter of some other fanboy? I would think that my "response" was...the hundred page PDF that went through great lengths to show just how much of Stoklasa's review was nothing but useless and off base nitpicking.

Plunder? What did they plunder? Now you're just making stuff up. In your rebuttle you said they were blockading to protest the new tax laws. Now they're plundering? Which is it? I didn't see any plundering. I didn't see them land any mining equipment. And all of their big ships dissapeared without filling their cargo holds with goods. So what, plundering?? I don't think so. And if they only ever intended to plunder the place, why not just invade it right away? Why blockade at all? That doesn't make sense. Even at the start, Sidious tells them that they have to advance their time table and begin the invasion now. So they were going to sit on their butts for an even greater length of time had not the Jedi showed up. So why wait if all they want to do is plunder it?

You really need everything spelled out for you, don't you?

I brought up the whole thing about "greedy" robber barons plundering a poor defenseless village (planet) as a way for the normal moviegoer to understand this movie, even IF they somehow missed the clear lines about the trade route taxes, and never spent a single moment trying to figure things out. It's not the actual plot of the movie, but it's a very easy way to "understand" the movie for the non-nerds out there who aren't going to care about nitpicking all the minor details.

And it's not like plundering the planet or otherwise taking advantage of it is even any kind of a reach, when they invade it, take it over, and want to force a treaty on the Queen. They can make a statement against the taxes AND take advantage of the planet, those are compatible goals.

Also, I would think that plundering one world would not be compensation for what is presumably galaxy-spanning tax laws which would affect their business in a systemic way. I mean, plundering a world is a one-off cash grab. It's not going to change the long term problems.

Because creating an uncomfortable situation for other people isn't how protests are done all the time.

You mean because the movie never told us? Yes you would be correct.
Here's a hint guy. In ANH, the movie follows the Death Star + crew and it follows Luke and friends. You can show TWO sides to an event. It's pretty basic story telling and gives the bad guys some character and an agenda. The two things which are consistently lacking from these movies.

In TPM, the Trade Fed invades in the beginning. By then it's too late to see them talking taxes (which were never even the point) without having some way to legally cover their butts.

So what? It doesn't take time to pack your things, get to your car? The world has FTL communications. The guys on Naboo should now INSTANTLY. Even Hyperspeed isn't that fast. And after Palpatine says his win is assured it shows sidious talking to the two mooks on Naboo.

So instead of following the heroes getting ready for their mission, or Qui-Gon's efforts to get Anakin trained, the movie should've shown Nute Gunray of all people in a scene where he...throws out a couple lines about worrying about how Palpatine might win an election? What does that add to the movie? Who cares about this stuff?

Why do I sense a common thread running through so many of these prequel haters/RLM supporters, where they want every insignificant little thing spelled out?

You don't understand. If the Trade Federation has an agenda that they want to pursue in the senate. That is, changing these tax laws. Then they want things to MOVE FORWARD in the senate. They're getting taxed. They don't want to be taxed. They want the senate to change this. Having things "stay as they are" does not help them.

You don't seem to understand a very simple part of the movie. The Trade Fed does NOT want to move forward until they know they can cover their butts from the consequences of the law. Sidious telling them that he'll keep things "as they are," basically stalling, gives them more time to do their thing.

Yet you can't seem to get that, and seem to want to see Nute Gunray nagging Sidious about giving them everything right away.

Gloss it over fanboy, gloss it over.

This is just rich. You whine about Nute Gunray (minor supporting character and blatant patsy) being an idiot, bringing up his leadership position as if that somehow conflicts with him being an idiot. When I point out that there are in fact idiot leaders in real life, you call me a "fanboy."

There's a fundamental difference between the OT and the PT.

In the OT, no one is an idiot.
In the PT, everyone except Palpatine is an idiot.

You know that thing about rose-tinted glasses that I keep bringing up?

What do you call the "scanning crew" who boards the Falcon unarmed (and hauling some box of crap) without their Stormtrooper escorts? Those same Stormtroopers who stand just a few feet outside and can't seem to hear their scanning crew getting jumped? The Imperial scheme based on giving the heroes an easy escape so that they can be tracked back to the Rebel base, which the heroes figure out and don't do anything about? How do you regard Tarkin's decision not to launch TIE fighters against the Rebel's X-wings, for no reason other than him being arrogant? Admiral Ozzel screwing up and being called an idiot onscreen? The entire Battle of Endor hinging on the fact that Palpatine is an arrogant idiot who wants to draw things out into a slow, sadistic game just for his amusement?

Face it, if you wanted to nitpick the Original Trilogy that much it wouldn't hold up that well either.

And furthermore for the sake of argument, if idiots ARE elected in the real world, it's because there are typically people behind the scenes pulling the strings. Who's pulling Nute Gunray's strings? Palpatine? Yes. But Palpatine's not in the trade Federation. So even if Nute was a complete moron he should have some guy behind him telling him what to do, telling him what to do in the best interests of the Trade Federation (not Palpatine). The Trade Federation should NOT be that stupid given how much power they have. They've got more military power than even the Republic at that time by the looks of it.

Yet they're afraid of Republic prosecution, and act as if the Republic revoking their trade franchise is a big deal. No, they're not more powerful than the Republic.

You're completely inventing some need for some OTHER mastermind to be behind Nute Gunray. What he did in TPM wasn't even as dumb as Saddam Hussein suddenly thinking he could fight the entire world.

Yes so if they are separatists why are they aggressively attacking republic worlds like Kashyyk. People who want independence generally just defend their sovereignty. They don't go on a murderous war of aggression against their former masters.

Please, stop talking about various things as if you know what's what. Like the Confederates didn't launch offensives against the United States.

Yes that is his over all point. People can't connect with these movies because no one cares about any of the characters because they're all a bunch of jackasses.

If that was his main point, then maybe he should've actually made a review about that main point. Rather than nitpicking or inventing problems based on tea drinking, his preference for Rambo tactics, or his inability to differentiate Padme from a camel.

But then again, if he made a sensible review that just stayed in that safe subject area, his review wouldn't be as monstrously long. He would not have some false air of authority on the subject, and he would never have acquire a fanboy following.

Why do I sense a common thread running through so many of these prequel haters/RLM supporters, where they want every insignificant little thing spelled out?

This is definitely something that I've been trying to keep in mind when responding, and we've touched on briefly as far as the poison gas. It's good to have dedication in making a well-explained story, but there's ultimately a necessity by the director to be concise and relay the critical points in an entertaining fashion.

Imperial528 wrote:And the Trade Federation is blockading Naboo because they don't like the new tax laws, and they hope that by threatening to squeeze the life out of a peaceful world, they'll get there way. It's an interstellar hostage situation.

Didn't one of the novels (Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter I think) say that the motivation for the blockade of Naboo was that Palpatine was the senator who drew up the trade-route taxation policy and the blockade therefore an act of petty vengeance on behalf of the the Trade Federation? I know that the game Star Wars Battlegrounds said so for sure.

Does the EU suddenly matter?

In the movie, Palpatine said this: "Supreme Chancellor, delegates of the senate, a tragedy has occurred which started right here with the taxation of trade routes and has now engulfed our entire planet in the oppression of the Trade Federation."

Why would he say that if the taxation was his idea? It sounds to me like he didn't even support it.

So why was Naboo was singled out by the Trade Federation? The movie is clear as mud on this point.

Yeah, if we just go by what the movie gives us then the blockade and occupation are purely random acts of jackassery, like an angry spoilt child punching the next best person on the street because his daddy won't buy him a PS3. As for Imperial's suggestion that they're taking political hostages, well, in that case they wouldn't be so adamant in getting Amidala to write the planet over. Without EU rationalizations TPM doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

EDIT:
As the movie portrays it, it would make a hell of a lot more sense if Naboo had some valuable resource the Trade Federation was after. Lucas should have dropped the whole taxation angle and gone the straightforward path of corporate greed.

I think it's more likely that we're simply not intelligent enough to grasp the complexxxxity of Palpatine's ingenious plot.

Palpatine's line about how things started with the Senate's taxes is vague, and doesn't prove whether he supported or opposed those taxes. He could have easily taken the position that he voted for the taxes, without ever knowing that the Trade Federation would go nuts and attack his planet in retaliation. Sounds to me like he was telling the Senators to take responsibility for the consequences of their own laws.

Yes, it is vague, which also means unclear. That's my point.

Did Naboo support or oppose the taxes? Palpatine said that the tragedy started with the taxation, which implies the latter, so why would the Trade Federation blame their political allies?

Yes, I need it spelled out for me. Kinda like in how ANH when we're actually told why Alderaan is being destroyed.

Alderaan was destroyed for no other reason than to show that Tarkin was a textbook Evil Overlord and to show off their special effects for the Death Star. Well, okay that's from a storytelling POV and you clearly are talking about plot. SOD-wise Tarkin blew it up to make an example out of it and its population, and that was established in one throwaway line of dialogue.

Either way, that's not really comparable to what you are asking of TPM. You are asking for details that cannot be established with one liners, that few people really care about (I mean, most people hate what little politicking we got, you really think more would be a good idea?), and which is really tangental to the story thematically. Its the PHANTOM Menace. Not every villain is served by having every little detail of their evil master plan dictated to us like in a James Bond flick.

Furthermore, we can again flip this nitpick on its head and attack the OT with the same logic: we don't know why Alderaan is part of the Rebellion or how Leia got her hands on the Death Star plans. In RotJ we never find out how Luke and company found Jabba's palace, or how Lando (a known friend of Han AND general for the Rebel Alliance) managed to infiltrate his organization. In fact, we never see how the Rebellion operates, how large it is, how popular it is, what its military strategy is, etc.. The same applies to the Empire, for that matter. Why, its almost as if we don't care about all that stuff.

Formless wrote:Alderaan was destroyed for no other reason than to show that Tarkin was a textbook Evil Overlord and to show off their special effects for the Death Star. Well, okay that's from a storytelling POV and you clearly are talking about plot. SOD-wise Tarkin blew it up to make an example out of it and its population, and that was established in one throwaway line of dialogue.

But at least we were given a logical reason for Alderaan's destruction.

Either way, that's not really comparable to what you are asking of TPM. You are asking for details that cannot be established with one liners, that few people really care about (I mean, most people hate what little politicking we got, you really think more would be a good idea?),

If one of the characters had merely said something like "Naboo sponsored this new tax," that would suffice. Maybe Qui-Gon could have said it while they were waiting in the conference room. No extra politics. No bullshit. One line.

But that never happened and then Palpatine muddied the waters further by implying that Naboo actually OPPOSED the new taxes.

Formless wrote:and which is really tangental to the story thematically. Its the PHANTOM Menace. Not every villain is served by having every little detail of their evil master plan dictated to us like in a James Bond flick.

A competently-written script can convey a lot of information without resorting to Bond-villain monologues.

Formless wrote:Furthermore, we can again flip this nitpick on its head and attack the OT with the same logic: we don't know why Alderaan is part of the Rebellion

So what? We only need to know WHY it was destroyed.

Formless wrote:or how Leia got her hands on the Death Star plans.

"Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies."

Formless wrote:In RotJ we never find out how Luke and company found Jabba's palace,

"I'll meet you at the rendezvous point on Tatooine."

Luke said that at the end of TESB so we knew even then what Lando's destination was. The whereabouts of Jabba's palace was never established as being a secret anyhow.

Formless wrote:or how Lando (a known friend of Han AND general for the Rebel Alliance) managed to infiltrate his organization.

Again, so what? We know that Landa DID infiltrate Jabba's palace and we know WHY. The HOW is tangential.

Formless wrote:In fact, we never see how the Rebellion operates, how large it is, how popular it is, what its military strategy is, etc.. The same applies to the Empire, for that matter. Why, its almost as if we don't care about all that stuff.

Because none of that really matters to the plot.

Jesus fucking christ, slicing an argument up sentence by sentence is just plain asinine. Take note folks: this is what it looks like when someone misses the bigger picture.

The taxes and Palpitine's politicking are a PLOT DEVICE just like the stolen Death Star Plans. More detail wouldn't solve things, because at the end of the day it would still be a mere diversion from the actual story. Palpitine is obviously motivated by power and gaining more of it, the Trad Fed are obviously motivated by money and getting more of it. The taxes, regardless of whether Naboo supported or hated them, are merely a means to an end for Palpitine-- he is, after all, the senator for goddamn Naboo. The rest is, as you put it, HOW questions and therefor irrelevant nitpicky shit.