Enterprise 301 "The Xindi" *Spoilers*

[TheDarkling]

What of the other IME races?

Phlox is only there (Enterprise) on his IME ticket and that is the only level of interaction we have seen, as such there is no destinction between the Denobulans and the other IME races.

IF you can't tell me why at their high level of interaction (according to you) we haven't heard of them when the program is going on, if we cannot hear of them then not hearing of the Denobulans during a later time peroid is an exact replic of this, therefore we have a precedent for out claims and you do not.

[Admiral_K]

For them to maintain such involvements in the 22nd century and be apparent unknowns as early as the 23rd suggests a rapid decline of interstellar presence. It. Is. Not. Difficult. To. Comprehend.

You. have. no. facts. to. back. your. statement. up.

What you do have is rampant speculation that because no episode of Star Trek happened to feature this race, that they aren't presen't or aren't important. Essentially, you have nothing.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

What of the other IME races?

Phlox is only there (Enterprise) on his IME ticket and that is the only level of interaction we have seen, as such there is no destinction between the Denobulans and the other IME races.

IF you can't tell me why at their high level of interaction (according to you) we haven't heard of them when the program is going on, if we cannot hear of them then not hearing of the Denobulans during a later time peroid is an exact replic of this, therefore we have a precedent for out claims and you do not.

Who's to say that the other IME races are ones we haven't heard of before? Even if that's true, all this counterclaim will accomplish is to provide precedent for both claims -- if we don't hear of the other IME species (aside from Vulcans and Denobulans) who is to say that those races ever gained political prominence? This point, however, does not nullify the claim that the Denobulans had prominence and then lost it.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

For them to maintain such involvements in the 22nd century and be apparent unknowns as early as the 23rd suggests a rapid decline of interstellar presence. It. Is. Not. Difficult. To. Comprehend.

You. have. no. facts. to. back. your. statement. up.

You're right, because it's a case for a negative. What I have is evidence and deductive reasoning, both of which I've already spelled out several different times, several different ways.

What you do have is rampant speculation that because no episode of Star Trek happened to feature this race, that they aren't presen't or aren't important. Essentially, you have nothing.

Right! Exactly! Where the Denobulans are concerned from 2265 on, that's exactly what we have -- a superfluence of nothing. Oh -- wait. For a minute there, I thought the light of logic had begun to penetrate the dim and dusty window of your consciousness.

All right, then. It's just been revealed to me that the Dominion forces who attacked the Federation were not, in fact, led by the Founders, but by the Care Bears. Now, just because we never see them or hear anything about them doesn't mean they're not present or important. Capisce?

[TheDarkling]

Who's to say that the other IME races are ones we haven't heard of before? Even if that's true, all this counterclaim will accomplish is to provide precedent for both claims -- if we don't hear of the other IME species (aside from Vulcans and Denobulans) who is to say that those races ever gained political prominence? This point, however, does not nullify the claim that the Denobulans had prominence and then lost it.

But since your sole evidence for this supposed prominence is the IME if people can be members of it and not spoken about then it obviously doesn't indicate the close interaction you believe it does, which means you don't have a level of prominence for the Denobulans to lose.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Who's to say that the other IME races are ones we haven't heard of before? Even if that's true, all this counterclaim will accomplish is to provide precedent for both claims -- if we don't hear of the other IME species (aside from Vulcans and Denobulans) who is to say that those races ever gained political prominence? This point, however, does not nullify the claim that the Denobulans had prominence and then lost it.

But since your sole evidence for this supposed prominence is the IME if people can be members of it and not spoken about then it obviously doesn't indicate the close interaction you believe it does, which means you don't have a level of prominence for the Denobulans to lose.

Since the IME and who participates in it are peripheral subjects in the show, if they ever even come up, it's easy enough to speculate that the other IME participant species are ones we've heard of. Otherwise, the problem becomes more complicated instead of reaching a solution.

Right now, we're talking about a very small part of what will eventually become the Federation's core territory -- it's unlikely that there are going to be 8 species we never hear of again within their core territory. More than likely, the other 6 IME participants are familiar names. Do I say that because we've heard those names yet? Of course not. I say that because it makes more sense for one species to experience a drastic political shift, or an epidemic, or a descent into xenophobic isolationism, then it does to suggest that they're an important member of the community that no one ever talks about; or worse -- that there are 7 very important members of the community that no one ever talks about.

[TheDarkling]

But you are still starting from the position that the IME is important and then applying all sorts of absurd contortions to explain away the problem instead of seeing the obvious conclusion that the IME isn't important.

You say any nation of import would merit a mention in everyday conversation yet none of the nations in the IME except those with crew members on the ship have merited such attention in Enterprise and in Enterprise they are living in a much smaller community.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

But you are still starting from the position that the IME is important and then applying all sorts of absurd contortions to explain away the problem instead of seeing the obvious conclusion that the IME isn't important.

You say any nation of import would merit a mention in everyday conversation yet none of the nations in the IME except those with crew members on the ship have merited such attention in Enterprise and in Enterprise they are living in a much smaller community.

It's my position that any nation that is well known is likely to come up at least once in 450 hours of conversation.

It's also my position that by TNG, the statement is made that only something like 15% of the galaxy has been explored -- if NX-01 is the first Earth ship to begin exploring the galaxy and making first contacts, then the races already known in Archer's time will be extremely familiar ones in Kirk's and Picard's eras. By Picard's time, the Denobulans should be as familiar as the Vulcans, because Earth would have been dealing with them nearly as long -- regardless of the two states' diplomatic positions. The "known galaxy" of Archer's time is simply too small to get past this.

It is thus my position that it is more likely that 1 unknown species would disappear than it is that 7 unknown species would disappear. Thus, I believe that the other 7 species in the IME besides Vulcans are races which were mentioned but never seen in TOS, TNG or DS9.

That second statement holds true if nothing happens to change the Denobulans level of activity in the AQ. I don't even understand why people object to that idea. There may be only circumstantial evidence that they aren't around post-NX-01, but there's nothing at all to support the claim that they are!

The only reason I can come up with that you object to the idea is that the character is a "nice guy" and -- gee whiz! -- nobody likes to think that something bad might happen to a "nice guy", right?

[TheDarkling]

Actually I'm fairly apathetic about Phlox and the reason I object to your conclusion that something must have happened is because I see nothing to support it.

[Admiral_K]

You're right, because it's a case for a negative. What I have is evidence and deductive reasoning, both of which I've already spelled out several different times, several different ways.

Your evidence is flimsy and your reasoning is flawed.

Right! Exactly! Where the Denobulans are concerned from 2265 on, that's exactly what we have -- a superfluence of nothing. Oh -- wait. For a minute there, I thought the light of logic had begun to penetrate the dim and dusty window of your consciousness.

Unfortunately the light of logic will most likely never penetrate that thick Wall of Ignorance (TM) you are so snugly behind.

Logic SHOULD tell you that you don't have enough evidence to prove anything about the Denobulans.

Logic SHOULD tell you that simply because the subject of "Denobulans" has not occured in the extremely limited view we see of the Trek Universe does not shed a bit of light onto their fate or importance in the galactic scheme of things.

Logic SHOULD tell you to come up with something a little more concrete before posting your weakly formulated ideas.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Actually I'm fairly apathetic about Phlox and the reason I object to your conclusion that something must have happened is because I see nothing to support it.

If that's all your objection is, let me ask you this -- do you see anything to contradict my conclusion?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

You're right, because it's a case for a negative. What I have is evidence and deductive reasoning, both of which I've already spelled out several different times, several different ways.

Your evidence is flimsy and your reasoning is flawed.

My evidence is circumstantial, as I've already admitted, but my reasoning is just fine.

Right! Exactly! Where the Denobulans are concerned from 2265 on, that's exactly what we have -- a superfluence of nothing. Oh -- wait. For a minute there, I thought the light of logic had begun to penetrate the dim and dusty window of your consciousness.

Unfortunately the light of logic will most likely never penetrate that thick Wall of Ignorance (TM) you are so snugly behind.

I'm not ignoring your objections, K -- I've refuted them.

Logic SHOULD tell you that you don't have enough evidence to prove anything about the Denobulans.

Logic DOES tell me that a drop in evidence denotes a drop in activity.

Logic SHOULD tell you that simply because the subject of "Denobulans" has not occured in the extremely limited view we see of the Trek Universe does not shed a bit of light onto their fate or importance in the galactic scheme of things.

Logic DOES tell me that since the Denobulans are near the core of what will be Federation territory and we know of them in Archer's time, in order for us not to hear of them from Kirk's time forward, something must change. The signs of the Denobulans' fate preexist their very conception -- this is a fact. Whether you choose to accept that very basic and open-ended conclusion or not is your business, but your acceptance is not required in order for the conclusion to be a valid one.

Logic SHOULD tell you to come up with something a little more concrete before posting your weakly formulated ideas.

Logic DOES tell me that you're either losing confidence in your position or new to this board if you feel the need to object to speculation or challenges to your ideas. One of the reasons we debate here is to improve our ideas, and that doesn't happen until they get shot down. You've come close, but you haven't shot this one down yet.

[TheDarkling]

Actually I'm fairly apathetic about Phlox and the reason I object to your conclusion that something must have happened is because I see nothing to support it.

If that's all your objection is, let me ask you this -- do you see anything to contradict my conclusion?

Do you see anything to contradict my conclusion thatthey just aren't mentioned like many other races aren't?

I could conclude that they all turned into giant pink rabbits, ate three planets and then disapeared down a black hole and there would be no evidence indicating otherwise but that does not mean I am about to put forward such a situation as being what occured.

[Admiral_K]

Here we go again... I'm not going to copy/quote this stuff to make a huge unreadable post rather I will paraphrase. Again, if you feel slighted on any of these points feel free to clarify.

First, you contend that the Denobulans are a major player in regards to Earth politics durring the 22nd century, and likely a core member of the soon to be Federation.

Your evidence is...that because a Doctor whose species is Denobulan, who is participating in the IME and was recruited to serve aboard Enterprise because of his experience with multiple species somehow elevates his government to some sort of esteemed position with Earth.

I'm not sure where you are going with this.... I do know we never see Starfleet leaders consulting with Denobulans as we see them consulting with Vulcans. We never see Phlox standing up as a representative of his government on any matter.

Secondly, you contend that the Denobulans are at a lower status or for some reason do not exist from the time of TOS onward

Your evidence.... We don't see or hear about the Denobulans in later trek series therefore they do not exist, or somehow exist but maintain a very low profile

Since we only see a very small slice of the trek universe in any of the trek series you can't possible use that as evidence for your claim. You are essentially saying if a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around to hear it that it doesn't make any sound.

IF we knew of EVERY member of the Federation, their status and importance, then perhaps your claim would have merrit. Since so much of Trek is left unknown to us you have absolutely nothing.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Just to clarify for K (and anyone else who may be wondering) my reasoning regarding the Denobulans after the Enterprise era is formally known as auto-epistemic reasoning, and is described here.

To paraphrase the most relevant example,

If the Denobulans still interacted with other species in the 23rd or 24th centuries, we would know it by now.
We don't know that the Denobulans interact with other species in the 23rd or 24th centuries.
Therefore, they do no such thing.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Here we go again... I'm not going to copy/quote this stuff to make a huge unreadable post rather I will paraphrase. Again, if you feel slighted on any of these points feel free to clarify.

First, you contend that the Denobulans are a major player in regards to Earth politics durring the 22nd century, and likely a core member of the soon to be Federation.

Let me clarify -- the Denobulans do appear to be on par with the other species in the core territories at this time. We do not, however, see any evidence that they joined the Federation.

But -- before you nut yourself -- they are within what will become the central territory of the Federation. (Based on the fact that they are involved in a program composed of species who are probably on par with Earth in the area of propulsion.)

Because they are in the Federation's central territory, they should be well-known in the 23rd and 24th centuries unless they cease to interact with their neighbors.

Your evidence is...that because a Doctor whose species is Denobulan, who is participating in the IME and was recruited to serve aboard Enterprise because of his experience with multiple species somehow elevates his government to some sort of esteemed position with Earth.

My evidence is that a foreign national was (or in any realistic sense should have been) approved for the posting by both governments subsequent to Archer's selection. No, there is no direct evidence for this, only the perhaps idealistic but not unreasonable assumption that Starfleet and Earth's government have command structures for a reason. AFter all, if Archer's word is all it takes, he's not a captain -- he's a dictator.

I'm not sure where you are going with this.... I do know we never see Starfleet leaders consulting with Denobulans as we see them consulting with Vulcans. We never see Phlox standing up as a representative of his government on any matter.

That's because he's a doctor, not a diplomat. That does not, however, mean that his government has no say over him whatsoever, to say nothing of Starfleet (to whom the ship belongs) or Earth's government (who presumably oversee Starfleet on some level.)

Secondly, you contend that the Denobulans are at a lower status or for some reason do not exist from the time of TOS onward

Your evidence.... We don't see or hear about the Denobulans in later trek series therefore they do not exist, or somehow exist but maintain a very low profile

Do you have an explanation for the reduction in evidence of them that makes more sense?

Since we only see a very small slice of the trek universe in any of the trek series you can't possible use that as evidence for your claim. You are essentially saying if a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around to hear it that it doesn't make any sound.

No, I'm saying that if you stand in the forest and there are no sounds, it's pretty silly to insist that trees are falling.

IF we knew of EVERY member of the Federation, their status and importance, then perhaps your claim would have merrit. Since so much of Trek is left unknown to us you have absolutely nothing.

Why do we need to know every single member species to know that the Denobulans were known once, and never spoken of after? Are you denying that no one ever mentions them? Are you denying that they're never seen? And please, no more of that, "We see them in that (scene that never happened on screen)" stuff, because you and I both know that's crap.

The Denobulans are never seen, heard, heard of even once after 2265. Until something is produced on-screen that contradicts that fact, it is more reasonable to believe that they went extinct than it is to believe that they have spent 100+ years being just as active as everyone else while simultaneously hiding their activity from everyone they're active with.

[Admiral_K]

Look, apparently this is beyond your comprehension but I will attempt to explain it one more time.

Just because we don't happen to see or hear anything during the trek series means absolutely nothing to the importance or presence of the Denobulans.

We don't even hear much about them in Enterprise beyond Phlox himself.

Why do we need to know every single member species to know that the Denobulans were known once, and never spoken of after? Are you denying that no one ever mentions them? Are you denying that they're never seen? And please, no more of that, "We see them in that (scene that never happened on screen)" stuff, because you and I both know that's crap.

Lots of races are not see nor heard about. That is the point. The problem I have with your theory is that what you are trying to prove is not supported by cannon evidence. We never see or hear them talk about New York City in Trek, so does that mean that the city dropped on the face of the Earth? Just because something is not mentioned or doesn't happen to come up doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The Denobulans are never seen, heard, heard of even once after 2265. Until something is produced on-screen that contradicts that fact, it is more reasonable to believe that they went extinct than it is to believe that they have spent 100+ years being just as active as everyone else while simultaneously hiding their activity from everyone they're active with.

You say they are never seen, heard or heard of even once after 2265. The problem is YOU CANT MAKE A STATEMENT LIKE THAT. They may be mentioned LOTS of times, it just so happesn that in the 1 hour a week show they don't happen to come up. I know you think that its "crap" but the fact is life goes on beyond what we see in Trek, if we suspend disbelief and treat it as if it actually exists. One of the crew whom we don't get to know might have a favorite desert known as denobulan cheese cake.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

You say they are never seen, heard or heard of even once after 2265. The problem is YOU CANT MAKE A STATEMENT LIKE THAT. They may be mentioned LOTS of times, it just so happesn that in the 1 hour a week show they don't happen to come up. I know you think that its "crap" but the fact is life goes on beyond what we see in Trek, if we suspend disbelief and treat it as if it actually exists. One of the crew whom we don't get to know might have a favorite desert known as denobulan cheese cake.

You're not getting this, are you? What part of the simple concept of auto-epistemic reasoning didn't you grasp? Or did you even check the link and read up?

Let me state this very simply: If it doesn't shown or brought up on-screen, it doesn't happen. Put it another way: you can't just fucking make up evidence to support your claim! Jesus fucking Christ, why do I have to explain that to someone who's been here as long as you have?!

Since you were obviously too fucking lazy to look this up through the link, here it is:

Another type of reasoning is called "auto-epistemic" ("self-knowing") because it involves reasoning from premisses about what one knows and what one would know if something were true. The form of such reasoning is:

If p were true, then I would know that p.
I don't know that p.
Therefore, p is false.
For instance, one might reason:


If I were adopted, then I would know about it by now.
I don't know that I'm adopted.
Therefore, I wasn't adopted.
Similarly, when extensive investigation has been undertaken, it is often reasonable to infer that something is false based upon a lack of positive evidence for it. For instance, if a drug has been subjected to lengthy testing for harmful effects and none has been discovered, it is then reasonable to conclude that it is safe. Another example is:


If there really were a large and unusual type of animal in Loch Ness, then we would have undeniable evidence of it by now.
We don't have undeniable evidence of a large, unfamiliar animal in Loch Ness.
Therefore, there is no such animal.
As with reasoning using the closed world assumption, auto-epistemic reasoning does not commit the fallacy of Argument from Ignorance.

In other words, because we see no evidence of the Denobulans when we see plenty of evidence of everyone else, the Denobulans are NOT DOING ANYTHING TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE OF THEIR EXISTENCE. Get it?

Whether they still exist or not is not the fucking point! The only thing I'm fucking saying is they're not producing evidence of their existence!

SO, then, little man, DO YOU DENY THAT FACT OR NOT?!

[TheDarkling]

In other words, because we see no evidence of the Denobulans when we see plenty of evidence of everyone else, the Denobulans are NOT DOING ANYTHING TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE OF THEIR EXISTENCE. Get it?

The Tellerites and Deltans arent mentioned in TNG+ did they die out?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

In other words, because we see no evidence of the Denobulans when we see plenty of evidence of everyone else, the Denobulans are NOT DOING ANYTHING TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE OF THEIR EXISTENCE. Get it?

The Tellerites and Deltans arent mentioned in TNG+ did they die out?

I believe the Tellarites are mentioned at least once. As for the Deltans, it's a possibility. But nobody says they have to have died out -- Deltans don't usually serve on Starfleet ships because other species can't handle their pheremones. Maybe they decided the problem wasn't worth the potential benefit and withdrew from contact with humans for the most part.

[seanrobertson]

In other words, because we see no evidence of the Denobulans when we see plenty of evidence of everyone else, the Denobulans are NOT DOING ANYTHING TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE OF THEIR EXISTENCE. Get it?

The Tellerites and Deltans arent mentioned in TNG+ did they die out?

To play an extreme nitpicker, a Tellarite is actually mentioned in "Apocalypse Rising":

BURLY KLINGON
... I was the first to board their
starship. With one blow from my
Bat'leth, I beheaded their
helmsman.
(smiles cruelly)
A Tellarite. The pig didn't even
have time to raise his weapon.

The Burly Klingon's racist pun gets a snort of
appreciation from his listeners.

Looking over that episode's transcript, it'd appear several minor things were changed in the televised version, but I do remember hearing "Tellarite...pig."

That very minor point aside, you're right: the Deltans weren't mentioned again after TMP. We didn't see any of the Trek VI Federation President's race after that film either, FWIW.

I don't think "missing" those races is as potentially troublesome as not seeing a Denobulan again, but I dunno *shrugs*.

[TheDarkling]

I believe the Tellarites are mentioned at least once. As for the Deltans, it's a possibility. But nobody says they have to have died out -- Deltans don't usually serve on Starfleet ships because other species can't handle their pheremones. Maybe they decided the problem wasn't worth the potential benefit and withdrew from contact with humans for the most part.

I did write out a long response but I see little point in it, it has all been said before and it was just as true then and still not accepted or refuted, I just see no reason for me to continue wasting my time in this manner yet I fear my stubbornness will not allow me to stay quiet for long.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I believe the Tellarites are mentioned at least once. As for the Deltans, it's a possibility. But nobody says they have to have died out -- Deltans don't usually serve on Starfleet ships because other species can't handle their pheremones. Maybe they decided the problem wasn't worth the potential benefit and withdrew from contact with humans for the most part.

I did write out a long response but I see little point in it, it has all been said before and it was just as true then and still not accepted or refuted, I just see no reason for me to continue wasting my time in this manner yet I fear my stubbornness will not allow me to stay quiet for long.

I don't understand how you can blissfully ignore a refutation of one of your claims while blandly asserting that I never issued a refutation -- in the same post.

[Admiral_K]

*sigh*

You are extremely thick skulled. Look:

Denobulans ARE present in the time of Enterprise. We know they exist, we know what they look like. They may be important found members of the Federation, or maybe they joined later down the road or not at all.

Therefore, the default stance should be that they exist until proven otherwise.

You are attempting to justify your stance that they aren't important or do not exist because of the limited material of the Trek movies/series.

In other words, because we see no evidence of the Denobulans when we see plenty of evidence of everyone else, the Denobulans are NOT DOING ANYTHING TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE OF THEIR EXISTENCE. Get it?

WRONG. We DON'T see evidence of "everyone else". There are over 100 federation members that we have never seen nor heard about in ANY of the trek series. Does that mean they don't exist? The Denobulans may just happen to live a very boring lifestyle, on a stable relatively boring planet in a boring sector of the Galaxy. That would be the most likely reason they don't appear in Trek series post Enterprise.

Why don't you stop trying to make strawman attacks, and instead look at what I'm actually saying. I'm not trying to "prove" anything. I'm saying that the lack of them being mentioned in Trek is NOT significant in determining whether they exist or are important during 23rd and later centuries.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

[quote="Admiral_K"]*sigh*

You are extremely thick skulled. Look:

Denobulans ARE present in the time of Enterprise. We know they exist, we know what they look like. They may be important found members of the Federation, or maybe they joined later down the road or not at all.

Therefore, the default stance should be that they exist until proven otherwise.

You are attempting to justify your stance that they aren't important or do not exist because of the limited material of the Trek movies/series.

[quote]

I'm not saying they don't exist, either. I'm saying that that's a possibility.

But -- according, again, to auto-epistemic reasoning -- if they were there, and if they were important, we would know about it. We don't know about it. So either they're not there, or they're not important.

I have already demonstrated why that reasoning is perfectly sound, and you have yet to provide one shred of evidence demonstrating that they are either present or important beyond the 22nd century. God dammit, why is that so hard for you to understand?

Why don't we see those 100 other member species? Because they're not important! Why don't we see the Denobulans? Because they're not important anymore! But we do see that they are at least somewhat important in Enterprise era, so at some point (write this down) they stopped being important.

The only real question is how and why they stopped being important. If you don't like that question, fine. Just say so. But don't prance around proclaiming your superiority in the face of observed fact and sound reasoning and expect me to just concede to attitude.