Transporter Reliability Myths

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-18 07:13pm

You have a quote from one guy, ONE quote that says its spilt up meanwhile NOWHERE ELSE is this EVER mentioned or show
You have NO quotes showing that SW can not indeed scan ALL of subspace not just one Domain or one suggestion
You have NO QUOTES NO EVIDANCE that ST can USE any of these other dominans
You have no Condratory evidance to prove that SW shields don't block all transports from regular to Subspace
AND YOU HAVE NO EVIDANCE OF ANY KIND THAT SUBSPACE TRANSPORTERS AND COMMUNCATIONS ARE NOT THE SAME THING
Transporters break somthing down into RAW energy and send it someplace else for it to be reasembled while Communcations send raw energy where its broken down and reasembled into a message

Face it Darkling your grasping at straws, you have as much chance of winning now as you do of spontaniously turning into a five hundred foot tall, break-dance pink Monkey

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-07-18 07:13pm

Scanning all of subspace just aint possible with one scanner

Prove it.

Antediluvian · Post by **Antediluvian** » 2002-07-18 07:26pm

Yes the DS9 episode was before the TNG episode.

I'm afraid that is incorrect Darkling, the subspace transporter was shown in the S3 episode "The High Ground", which would be before DS9 even aired.

The Federation also figured out how to track someone using this technology, and if needed, the Empire can as well, given the fact that they have used subspace technology for much longer. Which is canon.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-18 07:32pm

Antediluvian wrote:Yes the DS9 episode was before the TNG episode.

I'm afraid that is incorrect Darkling, the subspace transporter was shown in the S3 episode "The High Ground", which would be before DS9 even aired.

The Federation also figured out how to track someone using this technology, and if needed, the Empire can as well, given the fact that they have used subspace technology for much longer. Which is canon.

Thanks for clearing that up, Antediluvian.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-18 07:39pm

SPOOFE:ST Subspace comms jamming cant stop subtrans - I have already shown this, thus comms and subtrans work differently in how they react to jamming.

The Imps do produce subspace comms jamming but see above.

MrBean:

1. Is it ever contradicted? NO does it fir in with other things? YES - you cant disregard quotes for no reason? why should it be disregarded?.
2.Scanning all of ST subspace would take a huge amount of energy and differing devices? not to mention that it doesnt have military uses? the ALL of subspace quote refers to comms thus means all Subspace as far as comms is concerned.
Conclusion: ST and SW subspace arent the same thing or that SW only treat the comms level as subspace.
3.I evidence that indicates it howver I have no solid proof.
4.Can I prove they wont - no however if they werent designed to stop extra subspace levels why would they?
5.Yes I do - PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD READ THE THREAD. I have said this over and over again if jamming affects Subcomms but not Subtrans how could they be the same? HOW COULD THEY?
6. Mode of movement is different obviously since Subcomms can be blocked yet Subtrans cant.

Im grasping at straws? you have posted anything new at all.

I cant win - I never could, its not like you could be forced to be reasonable or to see anything beyond your pro wars stance.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-18 07:43pm

Antediluvian: Yes It (the DS9 first episode ) was before the episode in question (Bloodlines which is the episode the quote comes from) and yes the feds could track it in The High Ground.

So you are incorrect but also correct.

That being said im not sure the Imps could because there scanners arent science designed - Ref SD.net

However even if they could it doesnt negate the tech.

Im not even sure that Subspace sensors are still in use - they are ancient after all.

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-18 07:45pm

Again: SW SHIELDS BLOCK SUBSPACE. Deal with it.

Pardon me, but what have you been smoking? Are you seriously saying they have to lower their shields to communicate with each other?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-18 08:01pm

John Clark wrote:Again: SW SHIELDS BLOCK SUBSPACE. Deal with it.

Pardon me, but what have you been smoking? Are you seriously saying they have to lower their shields to communicate with each other?

They have to lower their shields to use long-range comms. Yes. Not short range, but they do for long range.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-18 08:02pm

Pardon me, but what have you been smoking? Are you seriously saying they have to lower their shields to communicate with each other?

No you comical man when they rasie thier shields to full power it cuts off long range Communcation
Thier Shields are ALWAYS on to some extent, When a ship of war is going to just that they raise there full powered shields and we assume all of them which by the by includes Subspace shields as it blocks communcation when the rasie them all

They have thier shields running at low strength at all times and as any fool with half a brainstem might grasp on its own

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-18 08:06pm

SirNitram: I have jheard this before but how does the emperor contact Vader while he in the asteroid field.

When the guy walks in and says "the emperor wishes you to contact him" and Vader says "talk us out of the asteroid field so we may get a clear signal"

How did he know the emperor wanted them to make contact - that info couldnt have come by local comms because the emperor wasnt in system.

Does that mean a long range low grade system can get past shields?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-18 08:15pm

TheDarkling wrote:SirNitram: I have jheard this before but how does the emperor contact Vader while he in the asteroid field.

When the guy walks in and says "the emperor wishes you to contact him" and Vader says "talk us out of the asteroid field so we may get a clear signal"

How did he know the emperor wanted them to make contact - that info couldnt have come by local comms because the emperor wasnt in system.

Does that mean a long range low grade system can get past shields?

I find it amusing you call the privatized holonet 'low grade'. Then again, I shouldn't expect anything more from you at this point...

Obviously they would need their shields at full power to survive in the asteroid belt, so they probably left to send the signal with their Deflector shields.. Which, as stressed before, cut off all subspace... down. Their ray shields can probably stay up while transmitting, but not Deflectors.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-18 08:19pm

SirNitram: I have jheard this before but how does the emperor contact Vader while he in the asteroid field.

Acutal I can answear this one very easliy
Are ALL communcations in SW done by Holo?
Nope they are not some are done pure Voice some pure text

The Emperor however would not want just voice or just text he wants to SEE you bowing before him while he delives his message

They could still contact him by Long Range Communcations(They had to have ships outside the Astroid belt in case Solo snuck out) so they probably Long Ranged it to those shields, who short ranged(Which goes through shields) to Vadars command ship letting him know The Emperor wants to talk to him
IE
Kneel down while I spew forth vauge sayings at you!

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-18 08:21pm

Your dislike of me is clouding your judgement im afraid - I never described the Holonet as low grade (it aint no holo communicator however but the better range/realtime advantage makes up for it).

Ill put it in stages to make it clear.

SSD in Asteroid field with shields on full.
SSD gets comunication from emperor saying "Oi Vader give me a call".
Officier tells Vader "The emperor wants to talk with you"
Vader says "Take us out of the asteroid field to get a clear signal".
They leave the Asteroid field and presumably drop shields.
Holonet comms come on.

What im saying is a long range comms transmission got poast the shields - or so it would seem.

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-18 08:21pm

Pardon me, but what have you been smoking? Are you seriously saying they have to lower their shields to communicate with each other?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No you comical man when they rasie thier shields to full power it cuts off long range Communcation
Thier Shields are ALWAYS on to some extent, When a ship of war is going to just that they raise there full powered shields and we assume all of them which by the by includes Subspace shields as it blocks communcation when the rasie them all

Then, indeed yes... you're saying that when they go into battle, they are unable to communicate with each other because their own shields block their comms!

Now the problem for the Imps, according to the Warsie posts in this very thread! is this: Since they use subspace communications, if they lower shields enough to communicate with each other, they open themselves up to subtrans incursion. Conversely, the only way for them to block subtrans incursion is to totally block their own communications within their forces. Can you reasonably deny this?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-18 08:23pm

Mr Bean: Thanks, I was wondering if he sent a probe like the one from "Truce at Bakura" but if ships were outside the Field thats probably what happened.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-18 08:23pm

TheDarkling wrote:Your dislike of me is clouding your judgement im afraid - I never described the Holonet as low grade (it aint no holo communicator however but the better range/realtime advantage makes up for it).

Ill put it in stages to make it clear.

SSD in Asteroid field with shields on full.
SSD gets comunication from emperor saying "Oi Vader give me a call".
Officier tells Vader "The emperor wants to talk with you"
Vader says "Take us out of the asteroid field to get a clear signal".
They leave the Asteroid field and presumably drop shields.
Holonet comms come on.

What im saying is a long range comms transmission got poast the shields - or so it would seem.

Alright. Conceeded.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-18 08:25pm

John Clark: The shields only block long range comms - the in system EM comms arent affected, however this does show that the fellow who said SW shields block everything was wrong.

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-18 08:28pm

Right. Now let's take a look at just how prevalent the use of subspace technology is in SW. I'm betting not as prevalent as the "Imperials can defend against everything" crowd wants us to think.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-18 08:30pm

Apparently the holonet uses Subspace comms and theres a seperate subspace comms system that has a range of 100LY.

Subspace sensors existed 25,000 years ago but im not certain they are still in use (I would guess not since I have heard reference of hyperspace sensors).

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-18 08:33pm

No point concided if they lower there shields enough for LONG range communcation they indeed open up the vunrability to Subspace Transports

However that does not factor in Short Range Communcations which SW has in plenty from old Fashion Radio(Ref-Showdown at Centerpoint, Lando) to Line of Sight IR emergancy back-up systems present in all ships, to normal short-range communcations(Its mentioned in ICS but I can't remeber of the top of my head its name)

Also some ships have drones or craft that can act as Repeaters(IE short-ranged to them, then they send it long-range)

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-18 08:36pm

Mr Bean: Fed Shields block sensors and comms aswell - thats why they have the frequency window.
Agreed?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-18 08:38pm

Subspace sensors existed 25,000 years ago but im not certain they are still in use (I would guess not since I have heard reference of hyperspace sensors).

Err realy
Hmm
Then why when we found we could send things Via Micro-waves and Lasers did we not remove Radios from everything?

Why?
One its good sense, Two its COMMON sense,

Ok so now all ships use Hyperspace to go Superlimianal, Why not get rid of the Subspace Scanners?
Because theres always the chance that an enemy would take advantage of this and send his ships through Subspace and get a suprise attack

Heck the SW ships of maybe 50,000 years in the future still have equipment for Dececting and Intercepting and even USING Radio waves for bob sake!
Hardly anyone uses them anymore but still the tecnology is on every ship to do just that!(If not trasmit)

LMSx · Post by **LMSx** » 2002-07-18 08:41pm

I'll have to go aginst a couple of other posters here, I thought that the Emperor's communication was a hypercomm message.

There have been several examples of ISDs having hypercomm units onboard, which are different, and instantaneous. I doubt that the Emperor was willing to put up with a laggy communication with his diciple.

Vader's communication with the ISD captains was most likely subspace, but the ships were so close that any lag between sending and reception probably would have been neglible.

Anyway, in Descent part 1, did the Enterprise know where they were sending the team, or was it beaming down people to a place that didn't appear to be 20 feet under?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-18 08:42pm

Mr Bean: Ok then another question if a Cap ships shields block all subspace (at least that level) does that mean subspace sensors are deactivated aswell meaning that EM sensors are employed?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-18 08:45pm

LMSx: Those ships were in the asteroid field so it couldnt have been subspace unless their shields were down(not at full power).

They managed to put the people down on the surface near a shuttle (which they could see on sensors).