Scrib wrote:I mean, Joff was always a sociopath, when he was young he showed warning signs but Robert could have worked with him instead of letting the boy latch onto the Hound.
Are we talking sociopath as in there was just something wrong with him in the head? Because I'm fairly sure that's not true and that he turned out all fucked up because of Robert and Cersei's wonderful parenting skills.
And yes I realize that Tommen and Myrcella aren't shitheads like them. But that's more because Joffery was the one being raised to be the heir and as such got the full benefit of that.
Not sure what you mean by "latch onto the Hound." All indications are that the Hound was nowhere near as bad of a person as he pretended to be, and probably significantly better than many of the others around Joffery.
Scrib wrote:I mean, Joff was always a sociopath, when he was young he showed warning signs but Robert could have worked with him instead of letting the boy latch onto the Hound.
Are we talking sociopath as in there was just something wrong with him in the head? Because I'm fairly sure that's not true and that he turned out all fucked up because of Robert and Cersei's wonderful parenting skills.
I think that there was always something wrong with him. When he was young he was told that a kitten was pregnant so his natural response was to...cut it open to see the kittens. Robert's response was to slap him, forcing Cersei to come to his defense and leading to him basically leaving the boy alone ensuring that no lesson was learned.
So while he was indeed failed by his parents, there definitely seems to have been some empathy problems at the very least when he was younger.
And yes I realize that Tommen and Myrcella aren't shitheads like them. But that's more because Joffery was the one being raised to be the heir and as such got the full benefit of that.
There's no reason his sociopathy has to be hereditary or it has to pass through every incest-baby. Westerosi would have you believe so but then, they would have you believe that bastards are inherently cruel.
Not sure what you mean by "latch onto the Hound." All indications are that the Hound was nowhere near as bad of a person as he pretended to be, and probably significantly better than many of the others around Joffery.
Cersei specifically says that Joff made the Hound into a father figure.
And the Hound is an asshole to put it lightly. He has absolutely no faith in any higher cause, or chivalry (though I sympathise, I can think of like one White Knight offhead.) and he is very good at rationalizing violence. Didn't he tell Sansa that every man loved killing or something like that. Is that the role model you want around a boy that has already cut open a cat and has unstable, inept parents?
Littlefinger and Varys are terrible people but they hide their evil under a veneer of charm and civilisation. Even if they were pushing for bad actions it's not that difficult for them to frame their strategies in some sort of logic or morally acceptable language that a young child can deal with. The Hound is a gruff bastard that doesn't even pretend to hide his misanthropy, disdain for social institutions or his complete willingness to kill.
The thing is, a Lannister could get away with marching into the Twins and then hanging Lord Walder as a traitor, because everybody expects that sort of thing from them. If anything it might be generally applauded; as has been mentioned, blocking off an allied army's passage is in fact treason.
But that's the Lannisters. Robb Stark? Everyone will be measuring him against his father, who would (quite literally) rather die than do anything even slightly underhanded, no matter how reasonable or sensible.
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Scrib wrote:
But I guess we're supposed to buy that they did it because Dany dropped the magic whip and they still followed her? Okay, I guess. I still think that the choice was there to make Dany feel better. Whether we're supposed to buy it...we'll see how the Unsullied react.
This is a bit unfair though because you're applying modern views on morality to a story based on historic attitudes of morality. Dany's decision to offer the Unsullied freedom to either fight for her or desert her would have been unheard of even 100 years ago in our world. Shit, if you haven't noticed, Armies today don't even give you the option of just leaving when you feel like it. Daenery's did. Think what you will about her making use of an army of former slaves, but that was extremely tough thing to offer given the attitudes of the medieval era.
Could it be argued that the Unsullied, given the brutality of their upbringing, could not be expected to fully understand the weight of such a decision? Sure. But that's expecting a lot of such a time.
I'm not quite sure what your argument is.
That Dany acted with the best intentions and she doesn't really understand how people raised in the most brutal conditions to ensure obedience will react to "freedom"? Possible, Dany is a child and, as later events show, she has her problems dealing with people and their reactions.
I'm just unsure about how we're supposed to take this. Are we supposed to go "Fuck yeah,Dany freed the slaves and she now has a freedmen army to march on Westeros with!" or are we supposed to go "Yeah, they all totally agreed to follow Dany, exactly like the slaves they are". The final shot implies the former, I'm skeptical of that particular view.
Why would this be black and white when so much of GoT has been varying shades of grey? What makes you think you are supposed to be feeling anything in particular? Who says you are supposed to cheer or boo this particular decision, or that everyone in the army whether the followed her or not feel the same way or follow for the same reasons? Its possible that many of them feel true gratitude at having been given the chance to strike back at their enemies and inspired to follow Dany. A number of others may feel as though they have no where else to go. More still may think simply be going along with the crowd because that's what they've always done, the concept of free will completely foreign. Are they all more or less mindless robots or do they actually have thoughts and feelings, kept concealed from years of training/conditioning/discipline? I expect we'll find out.
Well I think this episode revealed more clearly than ever how badly Tywin Lannister has fucked up his family. I particularly liked how much Tyrion fought back against the (morally) insane proposal to wed him to Sansa Stark. Sansa has become a pawn in Tywin's political games, much like his children have been for their entire lives. ells off.
Now if only Cersei wasn't also colossally stupid and selfish she might have seen years ago that cooperation with her younger brother would allow them to better oppose their father.
Meanwhile, in Riverrun, Robb has made what is probably the damning move of his career. Every one of his advisers were telling him to spare Karstark and deal with the murders after the war. Instead? He executes the guy and crashes morale in his army overnight. Robb is only too much like his father it seems. Utterly devoted to the preservation of his honor but not so much to common sense.
He later refused Jayne's advice to simply return North with his Army and prepare to wait out the winter. Robb refused this on the grounds that he'd be giving up the war. He's really just so arrogant that's he's lost sight of the most important objective, ensuring the North's independence. Bringing vengeance on the Lannisters was something he had to give up on the moment he chopped off Karstark's head.
I can't see how returning to the North wouldn't work better at this point rather than an extremely ambitious attack on Casterly Rock. (Something which Tywin has predicted he would do since Season 2.) If Robb returns North, he and his lords will be back in time to prepare for the winter. Attacking the North during a winter would be a no-go for the Lannisters, shit, attacking the North at any point ever again would be a bad idea. All those Northern Lords will set aside what they think of Robb if it means defending their home turf from invaders i'm sure.
Not to mention per the books if Rob had retreated back to the north and re-taken MK then southern cities would have been @#$@#$. The North is all about Winter is Coming and preparing for the long nights. It's harsh to the Riverlands but if Robb had fallen back, everything between Dorn and the Neck might have been depopulated come Spring since so much of the Riverlands and Westlands had been put the the torch. And while High garden might be fine for a time all those starving refugee's of Winter and war would head south. Dorn has giant deserts and a mountain range defending it, High-garden not so much.
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TheHammer wrote:
Why would this be black and white when so much of GoT has been varying shades of grey? What makes you think you are supposed to be feeling anything in particular?
Because most of TV is emotional manipulation. We are often meant to see things in a certain light, something like this is especially prone to being portrayed as an out and out victory. Now, because it's GoT it might be more grey, but then, the writers have stripped out gray from a topic before: (Tyrion's abuse of Shae, his controlling nature, etc.)
Who says you are supposed to cheer or boo this particular decision, or that everyone in the army whether the followed her or not feel the same way or follow for the same reasons? Its possible that many of them feel true gratitude at having been given the chance to strike back at their enemies and inspired to follow Dany. A number of others may feel as though they have no where else to go. More still may think simply be going along with the crowd because that's what they've always done, the concept of free will completely foreign. Are they all more or less mindless robots or do they actually have thoughts and feelings, kept concealed from years of training/conditioning/discipline? I expect we'll find out.
Of course, a large group may have different motives for following Dany, just as different people have different reasons for sleeping with their boss or parents. I'm concerned with the...average, I guess? Or the principle? In the absence of mind reading tech that's what we have. I'm concerned with how seriously we're supposed to take the assertion that these people after what they've done can be expected to make any other decision. As of the latest episode the answer seems to be:pretty seriously.
Not to mention per the books if Rob had retreated back to the north and re-taken MK then southern cities would have been @#$@#$. The North is all about Winter is Coming and preparing for the long nights. It's harsh to the Riverlands but if Robb had fallen back, everything between Dorn and the Neck might have been depopulated come Spring since so much of the Riverlands and Westlands had been put the the torch. And while High garden might be fine for a time all those starving refugee's of Winter and war would head south. Dorn has giant deserts and a mountain range defending it, High-garden not so much.
Winter is going to last a long fucking time. I'm pretty sure summer has gone on for a decade and the maesters are predicting a long winter so Robb need not put his hope on that. Also, I'm pretty sure that no matter how bad it gets for the south they're still in a better position, especially if they mop up the riverlands before he comes back. Well, unless Lysa comes to her senses.
Really, Robb cannot uproot Joff in any reliable timeframe. He can at best fight for his sisters and try to retire to his castle and sulk. Coming back and fighting an endless war will just exacerbate the current problem.
. Robb is only too much like his father it seems. Utterly devoted to the preservation of his honor but not so much to common sense.
He should try for peace but then he is a selfish asshole. First Jeyne, then Karstark, now this. Exactly like his father, who was willing to risk the lives of thousands so that he wouldn't personally have to worry about getting Dany's blood on his hands when her marriage was a clear pre-emptive maneuver.
That was quite an episode, particularly since (aside from the loss of the Karstark men and Lord Karstark) not a lot actually happened at a significant scale. Most of it was set up for events that are going to happen, or one-on-one conversations that were pretty great to watch.
I particularly loved how the show showed that Tywin utterly dominates his children. Cersei is the Queen-Regent - she speaks in the name of the King, and technically should be commanding him. Yet they live in fear of his whims, and that's something that the show has captured extremely well ever since the first time that we saw Tywin with Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion respectively. Man, when they do a wedding scene next episode between Tyrion and Sansa . . . Poor Sansa. That's going to be heart-wrenching.
CaptHawkeye wrote:I can't see how returning to the North wouldn't work better at this point rather than an extremely ambitious attack on Casterly Rock. (Something which Tywin has predicted he would do since Season 2.) If Robb returns North, he and his lords will be back in time to prepare for the winter. Attacking the North during a winter would be a no-go for the Lannisters, shit, attacking the North at any point ever again would be a bad idea. All those Northern Lords will set aside what they think of Robb if it means defending their home turf from invaders i'm sure.
Returning to the North would have been the best idea, easily. It has a more defensible land choke-point in the Neck, and the Winter would make military invasion vastly more difficult. Moreover, there's no indication that the Iron Men have seized the chokepoint at Moat Cailin, as they did in the books - meaning that it should be possible for him to march North as long as he doesn't have to use the Crossing at the Frey's Twins.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.” -Jean-Luc Picard
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them." -Margaret Atwood
. Moreover, there's no indication that the Iron Men have seized the chokepoint at Moat Cailin, as they did in the books - meaning that it should be possible for him to march North as long as he doesn't have to use the Crossing at the Frey's Twins.
Balon stated that they did and that it would leave Robb trapped "like a rat in a bottle"
Guardsman Bass wrote:That was quite an episode, particularly since (aside from the loss of the Karstark men and Lord Karstark) not a lot actually happened at a significant scale. Most of it was set up for events that are going to happen, or one-on-one conversations that were pretty great to watch.
I particularly loved how the show showed that Tywin utterly dominates his children. Cersei is the Queen-Regent - she speaks in the name of the King, and technically should be commanding him.
She can't. She has no independent power base. Every single piece of 'muscle' she has is Lannister, and none of them would back her against Tywin. None of the children do for that matter.
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spaceviking wrote:Rob Stark was an idiot in the books, but I dislike him far more in the show. They even have him dressing like a douche.
Though shouldn't the North have enough strength remaining to defeat the Ironmen, even without their armies in the south?
[strike]Well, if Robb's plan to bypass the Moat worked yes, well, most likely. If not...nope, he's fucked.[/strike]
Oh, I misread you. Nope. The Ironborn have the castles and the experienced men, the northmen have the boys and old people. Not really a good idea to attack them.
spaceviking wrote:Rob Stark was an idiot in the books, but I dislike him far more in the show. They even have him dressing like a douche.
Though shouldn't the North have enough strength remaining to defeat the Ironmen, even without their armies in the south?
EDIT:
Oh, I misread you. Nope. The Ironborn have the castles and the experienced men, the northmen have the boys and old people. Not really a good idea to attack them.
Terralthra wrote:Weren't the Crannogmen pretty much destroying the Ironborn via poison arrows by the time Robb could've gotten north?
Yep, although Robb didn't know that. Spoiler
They were also basically a bunch of leftovers that Balon and his men left behind, because they don't care about the North anymore.
On the episode-
That was a great opening scene, and it reminds me of how much I love the show's use of fire and fights in the darkness. It's interesting that the fire-healing can return someone to life, but it can't really save much of their minds. Drogo was healed, but he was more or less a vegetable. Beric is brought back almost immediately after his death, but he still loses part of who he is every time it happens (and the healing doesn't seem to replace anything that was lost, hence why he's still missing an eye). There's a phrase that comes up down the line - "fire consumes, but ice preserves" - which seems to describe resurrection by the Others as well as by Fire Priests (the Wights are described as basically not rotting or smelling at all).
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.” -Jean-Luc Picard
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them." -Margaret Atwood
Well I assume Jon is not the only one who knows about the Northern clans, and good men like Reed remain.
Bolton's bastard had a force of capable men, I assume other house do to.
And Bolton's bastard was repelled from the North (the weaker side of the Moat) when he had or lost (I can never quite remember) almost three times as many men as his enemy who were leftover scum.
And that is a castle with a weakness from the front. You want to go siege the others with a force that is either on par or slightly stronger than the enemy who can reinforce from sea (what about your own lands)? Go ahead. Well, after you've crossed the huge land that is the north that is.
Weren't the Crannogmen pretty much destroying the Ironborn via poison arrows by the time Robb could've gotten north?
The Leftovers? They were having problems.But before that the Ironborn didn't seem like they were giving up the keep anytime soon before Balon died and Victarion and his ilk were taking precauations.
Terralthra wrote:Weren't the Crannogmen pretty much destroying the Ironborn via poison arrows by the time Robb could've gotten north?
Books and background materials made it pretty clear that the North had plenty of spare military capacity that Robb hadn't taken south with him. The reason being that was all he could muster on short notice since the shear scale of the North makes full mobilization a drawn out affair.
Which is why in the books the Greyjoy attack was pretty stupid. Their naval advantage only helps them on the North's west coast, when the key population centers and major strongholds are on the east side or center (lands of the Starks, Karstarks, Manderleys, Boltons and Umber). They fight at a disadvantage island (no cavalry) and their logistics are nightmarish away from the sea. At the height of their relative strength to the Northern lords, holding Winterfell in the middle was beyond their grasp.
Basically they screwed over the only faction that would have been willing to ally with them for an empty victory netting them unproductive shoreline and forests. The plan Theon brought his father was better, the Ironborn's best chance is to forment the disintegration of a unified Westeros back into its component Kingdoms, which means ending the Lannister bid for supremacy. But he had a bug up his butt about Ned Stark. Spoiler
Both Euron and Asha seemed to realize this, Asha figured the best move was an alliance with the Northmen, Euron saw that holding the North was worthless and refocused on the real threats and real prizes in the South
Best part of this week's episode - in an episode full of great parts - was the Dragonstone scenes. Shireen stole every scene she was in, and Stannis' interactions with both her and his wife were really good.
Naturally, Jaime's scene in the bath with Brienne was also excellent.
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and please people stop watering down true sociopathy, the tyrell girl shows that he does have emotions and considerations for people other than himself, he's just got the value of life completely screwed where as royal he's above everything they don't matter, spoiled rotton, etc. with a bit of sexual sadist tossed in as well. I'm aware there are varying degrees of disasociative behavior running from your average fine dining waiter to serial killers and dictators.
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CaptHawkeye wrote:.
Meanwhile, in Riverrun, Robb has made what is probably the damning move of his career. Every one of his advisers were telling him to spare Karstark and deal with the murders after the war. Instead? He executes the guy and crashes morale in his army overnight. Robb is only too much like his father it seems. Utterly devoted to the preservation of his honor but not so much to common sense.
Its pretty clear given the discussion about how he lost and now needs back the Frey's, prompting him to head that direction, that his marriage to his useless wife is by far his most damning move.
As far as Karstark goes he had been openly voicing defiance to Robb in front of everyone with ears for some time and had been publically warned over and over again about the issue. Given Robb is already having trouble with disobedient commanders such as Edmure screwing up his plans, and WE know that other more important commanders such as Bolton obviously don't fear him given his activities, I really can't criticize his actions. For all we know his failure to severely punish such open treason might have caused his whole army to disintegrate instead of just losing the Karstarks.
He later refused Jayne's advice to simply return North with his Army and prepare to wait out the winter. Robb refused this on the grounds that he'd be giving up the war. He's really just so arrogant that's he's lost sight of the most important objective, ensuring the North's independence. Bringing vengeance on the Lannisters was something he had to give up on the moment he chopped off Karstark's head.
I can't see how returning to the North wouldn't work better at this point rather than an extremely ambitious attack on Casterly Rock. (Something which Tywin has predicted he would do since Season 2.) If Robb returns North, he and his lords will be back in time to prepare for the winter. Attacking the North during a winter would be a no-go for the Lannisters, shit, attacking the North at any point ever again would be a bad idea. All those Northern Lords will set aside what they think of Robb if it means defending their home turf from invaders i'm sure.
1.) The only part of Westros significantly effected by the war is the River Lands primarily and the North itself to a lesser degree. The Westlands, Crownlands, Reach and Highgarden are near untouched and I am not sure why you are assuming any of them need the River Lands given we know it was the loss of access to Highgarden that caused the lion's share of the trouble in King's Landing and now that it has been restored things seem to be fine. No mention of trouble in the Westlands, the Reach, Highgarden or even the Vale has been mentioned as far as provisions.
So we have the two territories controlled by Robb being the devastated ones, and honestly there is little reason to assume the North is self sufficient during winter especially give near the entire west half of it has just been pillaged by the Iron Born. For all we know and far more likely its the North that relies on the River Lands during winter.
2.) At this point Moat Cailin is in the hands of the Iron Born, Robb can't return north without taking it and its been mentioned many times that would be a long and costly process from the Southern side.
3.) As Robb points out his army will not reform for another campaign once they get North, and as we an see given his army's current state that shouldn't be hard to believe. Given they will essentially return defeated, blaming it on the boy king who would now be seen as a failed pretender compared to his father, I don't even think he could rely on them to rally to defend the North under his banner given the inevitable crown counter attack. Many will probably make separate peace with the crown or via for taking the North for themselves with crown support.
4.) Robb would be letting his enemies enjoy years of unmolested opportunity to rearm, refit, and otherwise strengthen their participation all while Robb is sitting under feet of snow unable to do any of those same things while the southern kingdoms enjoy far milder winters in their non devastated lands. The North will be weaker relative to the South after such a hiatus than they are now. Spoiler
5.) The Crown, Highgarden, and Lannisters between them have fleet more than capable of invading the North around Moat Cailin. I am not sure if they will have Cersi rebuilding the crown fleet post Black Water, but even with just Highgarden and the fleet at Lannisport thats far more than Stannis has to move his left overs to the wall.
Just a few reasons who simply retreating North is not automatically a good idea. I don't think attacking Casterly Rock is a good one either, but there is no better way to ensure eventual defeat then pretending you can hind in snow dirfts forever either.
The Yosemite Bear wrote:and please people stop watering down true sociopathy, the tyrell girl shows that he does have emotions and considerations for people other than himself, he's just got the value of life completely screwed where as royal he's above everything they don't matter, spoiled rotton, etc. with a bit of sexual sadist tossed in as well. I'm aware there are varying degrees of disasociative behavior running from your average fine dining waiter to serial killers and dictators.
Well, sociopaths/psychopaths (dealing with this distinction is just not important to me now) aren't always incapable of feeling emotion. They just happen to have really shallow emotion and temporary guilt/they can be extremely charming when they want something before they flip. Joffrey has shown enthusiasm when it comes to dealing with Margaery, but apart from that...what? Wonder at the fact that people actually like him after he tried to kill them all with crossbows? After a few months torturing others?
I really can't criticize his actions. For all we know his failure to severely punish such open treason might have caused his whole army to disintegrate instead of just losing the Karstarks.
