Enterprise 301 "The Xindi" *Spoilers*

[TheDarkling]

Also, point to ponder: Phlox may have been personally requested by Archer, but that doesn't mean that it was quite that simple -- Phlox's posting to Enterprise still had to be approved by both governments, which still implies friendly political status between the two.

So if I wanted to work in the US, the US would have to be on friendly terms with my government?

And how friendly are we talking here?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Also, point to ponder: Phlox may have been personally requested by Archer, but that doesn't mean that it was quite that simple -- Phlox's posting to Enterprise still had to be approved by both governments, which still implies friendly political status between the two.

So if I wanted to work in the US, the US would have to be on friendly terms with my government?

If you wanted to work in a civilian job anywhere in CONUS, the answer is probably no; but if you wanted to work on a U.S. Naval vessel, I would expect the answer is a resounding yes.

And how friendly are we talking here?

For a civilian foreign national to be stationed aboard a quasi-military vessel? Let's just say that "friendly" doesn't cover it.

[TheDarkling]

Ah but there is the rub, the Enterprise is closer to being some civilian vessel than a military one.

Imagine a boat owned by some university wanted to study ice caps and decided to hire a Norwegian (don't ask me why) it would be between the two groups not the governments.

We can play these games all day but if you wish to continue go back and address the message I posted at Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:34 pm because at the moment you are stating that Earth has close political ties with every member of the exchange program and since we haven't even heard many of those races names your assertion of close political ties not only falls flat on its face it burst into flames as it hits the ground.

[Admiral_K]

Thats a nice try, but several of those you named aren't actually Federation members.

Even if they were that still leaves 125 more un-named

[TheDarkling]

Upon reviewing Broken Bow and Stigma, I have reached some shaky conclusions - there are 8 races involved in the exchange program and humans are not one of them!

It seems (from looking at the banners of the various species represented) that humans are not among them and Phlox talks about the Vulcans initiating the medical exchange in Broken Bow, making it look like Phlox was on Earth at Vulcan request and not human(or he wanted at look at humans and was there under a Vulcan umbrella).

Again however these aren't set in stone but if humans are a member of the exchange (and only species at the conference had banners up) then the number of races has a lower limit of 9 (or 10)and probably a lot higher.

Edit: I found evidence that humans are in the exchange program, which means 9 is the lower limit on species involved.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Ah but there is the rub, the Enterprise is closer to being some civilian vessel than a military one.

Untrue. Despite Admiral Forrest's comment in "The Expanse", Starfleet is a military organization. It uses a military command structure, possesses military assets, and most importantly of all, serves the functions of a planetary (and later interstellar) military. Pollyanna-esque delusions aside, Starfleet is a military organization. The obsessive habit of its officers denial of this fact is the only thing, by the way, which for most of the 24th century kept it from being an effective military organization.

Imagine a boat owned by some university wanted to study ice caps and decided to hire a Norwegian (don't ask me why) it would be between the two groups not the governments.

Why shouldn't I ask you why? It seems to me that your point develops a rather large hole if we ask why.

We can play these games all day but if you wish to continue go back and address the message I posted at Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:34 pm because at the moment you are stating that Earth has close political ties with every member of the exchange program and since we haven't even heard many of those races names your assertion of close political ties not only falls flat on its face it burst into flames as it hits the ground.

That's a strawman. I am not remotely stating that Earth has close political ties with every member of the exchange program. I am stating that they have close political ties with a government whose nationals can be approved for service on Starfleet vessels merely at the whim of a Starfleet captain.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Thats a nice try, but several of those you named aren't actually Federation members.

Even if they were that still leaves 125 more un-named

And yet this entire tangent of naming 150 races is still a Red Herring.

[TheDarkling]

Untrue. Despite Admiral Forrest's comment in "The Expanse", Starfleet is a military organization. It uses a military command structure, possesses military assets, and most importantly of all, serves the functions of a planetary (and later interstellar) military. Pollyanna-esque delusions aside, Starfleet is a military organization. The obsessive habit of its officers denial of this fact is the only thing, by the way, which for most of the 24th century kept it from being an effective military organization.

Yeah and cruise ships have a ranking structure as well, it isn't a military as we have them now and let us also not forget that Phlox isn't really in the inner circle, we know from "The Expanse" that Archer usually doesn't even invite him to briefings, there is no need for close cooperation in the manner you think of after all a Ferengi got into Starfleet and there is no close cooperation between the Feds and he Ferengi and Phlox isn't even in Starfleet.

Phloe just happened to be on Earth at that point and just happened to be the right man for the job, unless you can prove to me Starfleet even had to contact Denoubula let alone have close ties yuo have to let this silly stance go.

Why shouldn't I ask you why? It seems to me that your point develops a rather large hole if we ask why.

Fine the Norwegian is an expert in his field, doesn't seem important to me but if you think it is there is your reason.

That's a strawman. I am not remotely stating that Earth has close political ties with every member of the exchange program. I am stating that they have close political ties with a government whose nationals can be approved for service on Starfleet vessels merely at the whim of a Starfleet captain.

Rubbish, you are implying that Phlox is somehow special and that any other any other member of the IME wouldn't have got his post, we have zero evidence of these political ties, we know that TNG+ non federation members are often onboard Fed ships so unlike today (on military vessels) it isn't a big deal, we know they are far more lax then modern militaries and having foreign nationals onboard is obviously not a big deal.

Have we ever seen Phlox consult his government for permission to remain no Enterprise? No
Is he official attached to Starfleet? No
Is he still just a member in the IME but acting as ships physician on a Starfleet vessel? Yes.

You have zero evidence for close political ties other than the fact that Starfleet isn't paranoid about letting non humans n its ships, face it you have diddle squat.

Oh and by the way you did use the IME participation as evidence for Denoubulans were big men on the galactic scene but now you are back pedalling from that because you realise that it isn’t correct, so now you are down to them just being important with regards to Earth, this is fairly easily to explain, as Earth grew in relative power they became just another race, see easy however you are still yet to prove they are important to Earth (or as you put it nearly as important as the Vulcans).

[apocolypse]

Thats a nice try, but several of those you named aren't actually Federation members.

Even if they were that still leaves 125 more un-named

Proof? Several of the members were either applying for membership or can't be proved that they aren't members. Like the Trill and Benzites, widely assumed to be members. The Anticans and Selaians, I can't remember if Picard said they weren't going to be members or not, but we never heard otherwise. Regardless, we still do see quite a few of the Federation's members. It's not quite as sparse as people make it out to be.

[Admiral_K]

Proof? Several of the members were either applying for membership or can't be proved that they aren't members. Like the Trill and Benzites, widely assumed to be members. The Anticans and Selaians, I can't remember if Picard said they weren't going to be members or not, but we never heard otherwise. Regardless, we still do see quite a few of the Federation's members. It's not quite as sparse as people make it out to be.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that they aremembers. You've just raised questions on at least 4 of them alone and thats probably without thinking much about it.

And as I said, even if you COULD name those 25, then that still leaves 125 others un-accounted for.

[Admiral_K]

Thats a nice try, but several of those you named aren't actually Federation members.

Even if they were that still leaves 125 more un-named

And yet this entire tangent of naming 150 races is still a Red Herring.

How is it a red herring? You claim they don't exist or aren't part of the Federation because we don't see them mentioned, yet you don't explain the over 100 other Federation members we don't see or hear being menitond

[apocolypse]

Proof? Several of the members were either applying for membership or can't be proved that they aren't members. Like the Trill and Benzites, widely assumed to be members. The Anticans and Selaians, I can't remember if Picard said they weren't going to be members or not, but we never heard otherwise. Regardless, we still do see quite a few of the Federation's members. It's not quite as sparse as people make it out to be.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that they aremembers. You've just raised questions on at least 4 of them alone and thats probably without thinking much about it.

And as I said, even if you COULD name those 25, then that still leaves 125 others un-accounted for.

Well, then I guess that leaves us at an impasse. I can't prove that they are, although it's widely assumed so. And I will still believe that the Trill et all are members, because we've never been told or lead to think otherwise.

For that matter, I have mixed feelings about the Denobulan thing. I don't mind them so much as I think it was a waste. Instead of bringing in yet another race that we've never heard of later on, they could have just stuck with something more cohesive. Like a Deltan or something.

[TheDarkling]

Proof? Several of the members were either applying for membership or can't be proved that they aren't members. Like the Trill and Benzites, widely assumed to be members. The Anticans and Selaians, I can't remember if Picard said they weren't going to be members or not, but we never heard otherwise. Regardless, we still do see quite a few of the Federation's members. It's not quite as sparse as people make it out to be.

You have 10 confimred and another few that are dodgy, given the fact that even if those are correct that only amounts to around 15% of the Fed members it is still very low, I'm willing to bet most Americans could name more than 7 states.

[Admiral_K]

Well, then I guess that leaves us at an impasse. I can't prove that they are, although it's widely assumed so. And I will still believe that the Trill et all are members, because we've never been told or lead to think otherwise.

For that matter, I have mixed feelings about the Denobulan thing. I don't mind them so much as I think it was a waste. Instead of bringing in yet another race that we've never heard of later on, they could have just stuck with something more cohesive. Like a Deltan or something.

If they don't start naming some new races, how in the HELL are they ever going to get up to the 150+ members that will one day comprise the Federation?

There is no continuity gaff or problem.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Thats a nice try, but several of those you named aren't actually Federation members.

Even if they were that still leaves 125 more un-named

And yet this entire tangent of naming 150 races is still a Red Herring.

How is it a red herring? You claim they don't exist or aren't part of the Federation because we don't see them mentioned, yet you don't explain the over 100 other Federation members we don't see or hear being menitond

Those are a red herring because none of them are represented as having been posted to Earth's first exploratory starship.

[TheDarkling]

Those are a red herring because none of them are represented as having been posted to Earth's first exploratory starship.

Just because he happened to be on earth instead of one of the other 8 or more races in IME program, you have still yet to explain how this indicates any level of interaction above those of the other members of the IME.

[Admiral_K]

Those are a red herring because none of them are represented as having been posted to Earth's first exploratory starship.

Explain to me how having a member of ones species serve aboard Enterprise somehow elevates their entire government to some prominent position.

Phlox was hand picked by Archer because of his experience treating multiple species (mainly to help with the wounded Klingon they had in their first mission). He wasn't placed their by any government.

[apocolypse]

Proof? Several of the members were either applying for membership or can't be proved that they aren't members. Like the Trill and Benzites, widely assumed to be members. The Anticans and Selaians, I can't remember if Picard said they weren't going to be members or not, but we never heard otherwise. Regardless, we still do see quite a few of the Federation's members. It's not quite as sparse as people make it out to be.

You have 10 confimred and another few that are dodgy, given the fact that even if those are correct that only amounts to around 15% of the Fed members it is still very low, I'm willing to bet most Americans could name more than 7 states.

You underestimate the stupidity of the human race. Seriously though, we do have many more member worlds that we know of, but IIRC they can't be proven canonically. (I think that's the word I'm looking for) I actually used to have a book that listed all the Federation members, but it has no canon standing.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Those are a red herring because none of them are represented as having been posted to Earth's first exploratory starship.

Explain to me how having a member of ones species serve aboard Enterprise somehow elevates their entire government to some prominent position.

Phlox was hand picked by Archer because of his experience treating multiple species (mainly to help with the wounded Klingon they had in their first mission). He wasn't placed their by any government.

You're missing this point -- Archer picked him, but Archer is only a Captain. The posting still had to be approved by someone over Archer's head in Starfleet. Presumably, Starfleet answers to Earth's government. The Denobulan government would have to agree, since I'm sure tooling around in unexplored space was not in the program for the IME. Unless you're suggesting that not only Starfleet, but every organization in Star Trek is run like a chess club -- no rules, no guidelines, no protocols, just do whatever the hell you want.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

(referring to Military nature of Starfleet:)

Yeah and cruise ships have a ranking structure as well, it isn't a military as we have them now...

Again, the fact that they use a Naval chain of command is a superficial resemblance -- but the fact that they serve military functions is pretty tough to dismiss. Already, Enterprise has performed military functions (see the ep. with the freighter being raided by Nausicaans -- I forget the name; and the ep. "Marauders".) Not to mention the whole Xindi mission. Would you define that mission profile as something a civilian ship would be sent to deal with? I defy you to name a cruise line that behaves that way.

...and let us also not forget that Phlox isn't really in the inner circle,

So? Do you the CMO on a real military vessel is privy to every single sitrep?

we know from "The Expanse" that Archer usually doesn't even invite him to briefings, there is no need for close cooperation in the manner you think of after all a Ferengi got into Starfleet and there is no close cooperation between the Feds and he Ferengi and Phlox isn't even in Starfleet.

Exactly. Phlox isn't even in Starfleet, but he was given a posting that should've gone to a Starfleet CMO -- if not for the Q'onos mission, then almost certainly after Enterprise returned to Earth for refit and before it left for the Expanse.

Phloe just happened to be on Earth at that point and just happened to be the right man for the job, unless you can prove to me Starfleet even had to contact Denoubula let alone have close ties yuo have to let this silly stance go.

All right, have it your way -- Enterprise takes off with a civilian foreign national. Nobody has to approve it, they just scoop him up and off they go. No paperwork necessary, no "May I"s or red tape at all. After all, he's "the right man for the job" and gee whiz, that's all it takes.

Meanwhile, two years go by, Enterprise returns to Earth, drops people off, picks people up -- but nowhere among those people is a Starfleet doctor. (No wonder McCoy always seemed bitter -- Starfleet Medical was 200 years behind the rest of the service.)

Why shouldn't I ask you why? It seems to me that your point develops a rather large hole if we ask why.

Fine the Norwegian is an expert in his field, doesn't seem important to me but if you think it is there is your reason.[/quote]

Even experts in their field have to clear red tape.

That's a strawman. I am not remotely stating that Earth has close political ties with every member of the exchange program. I am stating that they have close political ties with a government whose nationals can be approved for service on Starfleet vessels merely at the whim of a Starfleet captain.

Rubbish, you are implying that Phlox is somehow special and that any other any other member of the IME wouldn't have got his post, we have zero evidence of these political ties, we know that TNG+ non federation members are often onboard Fed ships so unlike today (on military vessels) it isn't a big deal,

Except that -- supposedly -- we're dealing with an era which is more like today, where it would be a big deal.

we know they are far more lax then modern militaries and having foreign nationals onboard is obviously not a big deal.

In TNG+. Even as far ahead as TOS, Kirk stationed security all over the damn ship simply because there were foreign diplomats aboard Enterprise ("Journey To Babel").

So why does it go from today's sensible military protocols, to 2150s half-assed "whatever you feel like" protocols, to 2260s sensible military protocols, to... why the constant flip-flopping, especially when my explanation makes perfect sense and reduces the discrepancies?

Have we ever seen Phlox consult his government for permission to remain no Enterprise? No.

You're using exactly the same argument to claim Phlox doesn't interact with his government as I am to claim that Donubulans don't interact with other species beyond the 22nd century. Maybe he does and it just never comes up?

Is he official attached to Starfleet? No.

Again, perhaps it doesn't come up. It would make sense, though, wouldn't it? He's been on that ship for 2 years, and it seems pretty unlikely that Starfleet wouldn't at least say, "Hi!" in all that time.

Is he still just a member in the IME but acting as ships physician on a Starfleet vessel? Yes.

Maybe.

You have zero evidence for close political ties other than the fact that Starfleet isn't paranoid about letting non humans n its ships, face it you have diddle squat.

Even if all I have is circumstantial evidence, I still have approximately one metric shitload of it.

Oh and by the way you did use the IME participation as evidence for Denoubulans were big men on the galactic scene but now you are back pedalling from that because you realise that it isn’t correct, so now you are down to them just being important with regards to Earth, this is fairly easily to explain, as Earth grew in relative power they became just another race, see easy however you are still yet to prove they are important to Earth (or as you put it nearly as important as the Vulcans).

I used the IME participation to show that the Denobulans participate in early AQ affairs, and are on good terms with the Vulcans.

[TheDarkling]

So? Do you the CMO on a real military vessel is privy to every single sitrep?

They do on later Starfleet ships.

Exactly. Phlox isn't even in Starfleet, but he was given a posting that should've gone to a Starfleet CMO -- if not for the Q'onos mission, then almost certainly after Enterprise returned to Earth for refit and before it left for the Expanse.

Starfleet had nobody to replace him with that had the abilities he had.

All right, have it your way -- Enterprise takes off with a civilian foreign national. Nobody has to approve it, they just scoop him up and off they go. No paperwork necessary, no "May I"s or red tape at all. After all, he's "the right man for the job" and gee whiz, that's all it takes.

I imagine Archer was given the ability to choose his crew by Forest, Phlox had to agree but it is made out to be his decision we don't see him ask to come along on the initial mission, we never hear about him clearing it with his government to stay on board after that either when they start the mission or when they go into the expanse (when Phlox clearly states it is his decision and admonishes T'Pol for leaving the decision to her government).

Meanwhile, two years go by, Enterprise returns to Earth, drops people off, picks people up -- but nowhere among those people is a Starfleet doctor. (No wonder McCoy always seemed bitter -- Starfleet Medical was 200 years behind the rest of the service.)

Archer doesn’t ask for one, remember Archer requested the MACO's and Forest let it slide but asked him whether he was sure, it seems that Archer has a free hand on who makes up his crew.

Even experts in their field have to clear red tape.

Most governments have a degree of red tape between them, I'm sure red tape is involved in the IME yet you don't claim the close cooperation between all IME races (because you know it sinks your argument).

Except that -- supposedly -- we're dealing with an era which is more like today, where it would be a big deal.

People starve today; people are bigoted today etc the times have changed in the 100+ years that has elapsed.

In TNG+. Even as far ahead as TOS, Kirk stationed security all over the damn ship simply because there were foreign diplomats aboard Enterprise ("Journey To Babel").

I have explained the relative level of militancy in the various trek series before, suffice to say that the Romulan war changed things (not to mention variations in command style between Archer and Kirk).

You're using exactly the same argument to claim Phlox doesn't interact with his government as I am to claim that Donubulans don't interact with other species beyond the 22nd century. Maybe he does and it just never comes up?

No I'm not I am using an incident where government permission for staying on Enterprise was mentioned and Phlox didn't say he needed his government permission and even if he did it still doesn't help your case.

Is he still just a member in the IME but acting as ships physician on a Starfleet vessel? Yes.

Maybe.

There is no maybe about it, the show makes it clear he is still a member of the IME and serving aboard Enterprise in that capacity.

Even if all I have is circumstantial evidence, I still have approximately one metric shitload of it.

You have Phlox and in that case you have nothing, explain this to me why if the two governments have such close ties, does the Denobulan government send a request for aid to Phlox who asks Archer for the favour instead of them going to their best pals at Starfleet and asking them to order Archer to do it? Could it be that Phlox is in an unusual position or closeness to Earth than the Denobulan government can't match on a large scale?

I used the IME participation to show that the Denobulans participate in early AQ affairs, and are on good terms with the Vulcans.

As do many other races, IME participation does not show what you want it to show.

[Admiral_K]

You're missing this point -- Archer picked him, but Archer is only a Captain. The posting still had to be approved by someone over Archer's head in Starfleet. Presumably, Starfleet answers to Earth's government. The Denobulan government would have to agree, since I'm sure tooling around in unexplored space was not in the program for the IME. Unless you're suggesting that not only Starfleet, but every organization in Star Trek is run like a chess club -- no rules, no guidelines, no protocols, just do whatever the hell you want.

That is mere speculation on your part. For all you know Archer may have had free reign to choose the members of his crew.

The Denobulan Government may not have been involved at all since I don't belive Phlox was a member of their military. It would seem to me that he is a private citizen who happens to volunteer for a medical exchange program.

I have yet to have seen Phlox step in as a "Denobulan Representative" on any political or military matter. He doesn't constantly communicate with his government reporting on the status of Enterprise as Tapoll(sp) does.

You need to face facts. Phlox is merely a private Doctor who happens to be a Denobulan. Nothing about that would indicate that his government is any more or less influential than any other.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

So? Do you the CMO on a real military vessel is privy to every single sitrep?

They do on later Starfleet ships.

Key word? Later.

Exactly. Phlox isn't even in Starfleet, but he was given a posting that should've gone to a Starfleet CMO -- if not for the Q'onos mission, then almost certainly after Enterprise returned to Earth for refit and before it left for the Expanse.

Starfleet had nobody to replace him with that had the abilities he had.[/quote]

Starfleet also didn't have a captain with sufficient experience to explore deep space until Archer. That's the whole point of sending them out there.

All right, have it your way -- Enterprise takes off with a civilian foreign national. Nobody has to approve it, they just scoop him up and off they go. No paperwork necessary, no "May I"s or red tape at all. After all, he's "the right man for the job" and gee whiz, that's all it takes.

I imagine Archer was given the ability to choose his crew by Forest, Phlox had to agree but it is made out to be his decision we don't see him ask to come along on the initial mission, we never hear about him clearing it with his government to stay on board after that either when they start the mission or when they go into the expanse (when Phlox clearly states it is his decision and admonishes T'Pol for leaving the decision to her government).

Again, maybe we're supposed to infer that the Denobulan government agreed to let Phlox stay as an unofficial extension of the directives of the IME.

Meanwhile, two years go by, Enterprise returns to Earth, drops people off, picks people up -- but nowhere among those people is a Starfleet doctor. (No wonder McCoy always seemed bitter -- Starfleet Medical was 200 years behind the rest of the service.)

Archer doesn’t ask for one, remember Archer requested the MACO's and Forest let it slide but asked him whether he was sure, it seems that Archer has a free hand on who makes up his crew.

Is it your contention that, because Archer has been successful there was never a possibility that he couldn't have his way?

Even experts in their field have to clear red tape.

Most governments have a degree of red tape between them, I'm sure red tape is involved in the IME yet you don't claim the close cooperation between all IME races (because you know it sinks your argument).

No, I don't claim it because we see no evidence of it. We do see evidence of cooperation between Earth and Denobula.

Except that -- supposedly -- we're dealing with an era which is more like today, where it would be a big deal.

People starve today; people are bigoted today etc the times have changed in the 100+ years that has elapsed.

So do you argue that because one thing has changed, all things have changed? And why did they change back 100 years later on this point?

In TNG+. Even as far ahead as TOS, Kirk stationed security all over the damn ship simply because there were foreign diplomats aboard Enterprise ("Journey To Babel").

I have explained the relative level of militancy in the various trek series before, suffice to say that the Romulan war changed things (not to mention variations in command style between Archer and Kirk).

The Romulan War might account for them wising up between Archer and Kirk, but it doesn't account for them dumbing down between now and Archer. And "differences in command style" can only account for minor things -- some of Archer's dumbass decisions would've gotten Kirk court-martialed sans benefit of mitigating circumstances.

You're using exactly the same argument to claim Phlox doesn't interact with his government as I am to claim that Donubulans don't interact with other species beyond the 22nd century. Maybe he does and it just never comes up?

No I'm not I am using an incident where government permission for staying on Enterprise was mentioned and Phlox didn't say he needed his government permission and even if he did it still doesn't help your case.

You're saying that, since we never witnessed Phlox make, receive or reply to communiques from his government, it doesn't happen. How is that different from me saying that because no one ever says the word "Denobulan" in the 23rd or 24th centuries, no one interacts with Denobulans?

Maybe.

There is no maybe about it, the show makes it clear he is still a member of the IME and serving aboard Enterprise in that capacity.

I'd really like to know where this is specifically stated.

You have Phlox and in that case you have nothing, explain this to me why if the two governments have such close ties, does the Denobulan government send a request for aid to Phlox who asks Archer for the favour instead of them going to their best pals at Starfleet and asking them to order Archer to do it? Could it be that Phlox is in an unusual position or closeness to Earth than the Denobulan government can't match on a large scale?

It could be a case of the "only ship within fifty light-years" cliche, but this time with a twist -- if Enterprise really is the fastest ship available, it would only make sense to ask for them. Also, if humans aren't involved in the IME, there may not be a human doctor with sufficient expertise to deal with the Denobulans' problem. For that matter, why not ask why the Denobulans needed Phlox in particular at all? Couldn't their own medical staff, on site, handle the problem?

As do many other races, IME participation does not show what you want it to show.

Then I'll return your challenge -- name the other races involved in the IME.

[Admiral_K]

I used the IME participation to show that the Denobulans participate in early AQ affairs, and are on good terms with the Vulcans.

As do many other races, IME participation does not show what you want it to show.

Then I'll return your challenge -- name the other races involved in the IME.

I'll field this one as it is a rather pathetic attempt at a red herring.

The fact that it is called the Inter-species Medical Exchange and not the Vulcan/Denobulan Medical exchange would imply it involes more races.

Sadly, the other participants are not made known to us. Much the same way we don't know of many of the Federation governments.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

You're missing this point -- Archer picked him, but Archer is only a Captain. The posting still had to be approved by someone over Archer's head in Starfleet. Presumably, Starfleet answers to Earth's government. The Denobulan government would have to agree, since I'm sure tooling around in unexplored space was not in the program for the IME. Unless you're suggesting that not only Starfleet, but every organization in Star Trek is run like a chess club -- no rules, no guidelines, no protocols, just do whatever the hell you want.

That is mere speculation on your part. For all you know Archer may have had free reign to choose the members of his crew.

And I agree -- he may very well have had free reign to choose them -- that doesn't necessarily mean that choosing is all there is to it. I'm sorry, but I'm old enough to know that the real world is just not that simplistic, and even a fictional one shouldn't be just to accomodate an abuse of creative license.

The Denobulan Government may not have been involved at all since I don't belive Phlox was a member of their military. It would seem to me that he is a private citizen who happens to volunteer for a medical exchange program.

So there are only two levels of involvement with government -- military and not at all? Someone should inform the staff at the CDC.

I have yet to have seen Phlox step in as a "Denobulan Representative" on any political or military matter. He doesn't constantly communicate with his government reporting on the status of Enterprise as Tapoll(sp) does.

Just for the sake of argument, how do we know that? Maybe (to paraphrase) IT JUST DOESN'T COME UP.

You need to face facts. Phlox is merely a private Doctor who happens to be a Denobulan. Nothing about that would indicate that his government is any more or less influential than any other.

Right -- no more, and no less. There's are two foreign nationals aboard the ship, one by government order and one by governmental permission. (Unless Phlox is there without permission? Do you suppose the Denobulan authorities just don't care what happens to their citizens? Do you think maybe they told him he couldn't go and he flipped them a very optimistic single-digit salute?)

You need to face these facts: Phlox is a foreign national aboard the vessel of a Terran government sponsored exploratory spacecraft. Whether his government ordered him to be there or merely permits it, it would do neither unless it was on good terms with Terran government.

If it's on good terms with Terra, Denobula is aware of and to some degree involved in AQ affairs. The IME participation is an example of such an involvement.

For them to maintain such involvements in the 22nd century and be apparent unknowns as early as the 23rd suggests a rapid decline of interstellar presence. It. Is. Not. Difficult. To. Comprehend.