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Ghost Rider wrote: I keep forgetting that because it is demonstrated the Emperor became more powerful in the time of RoTS to RoTJ that Lucas can supercede this, thus let us see which parisomny favors moron.

1. Some mysterious thing barred Vader to being more powerful then the Emperor because of potential.

The loss of four limbs, severe burns and lifelong dependence on a respirator as well as the emotional trauma of losing Padme and her child is hardly "some mysterious thing".

2. Vader still has the potential but is unable to supercede Palpatine because he doesn't have the same level of knowledge or resources that the old geezer has.

Fuck, I wonder which we can chose.

Again, it's not a matter of parsimony but a matter of whether we should accept the word of the creator over our own analyses based entirely on in-universe information. For a non-versus debate, there's no reason to rigidly adhere to suspension of disbelief.

Eframepilot wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote: I keep forgetting that because it is demonstrated the Emperor became more powerful in the time of RoTS to RoTJ that Lucas can supercede this, thus let us see which parisomny favors moron.

1. Some mysterious thing barred Vader to being more powerful then the Emperor because of potential.

The loss of four limbs, severe burns and lifelong dependence on a respirator as well as the emotional trauma of losing Padme and her child is hardly "some mysterious thing".

2. Vader still has the potential but is unable to supercede Palpatine because he doesn't have the same level of knowledge or resources that the old geezer has.

Fuck, I wonder which we can chose.

Again, it's not a matter of parsimony but a matter of whether we should accept the word of the creator over our own analyses based entirely on in-universe information. For a non-versus debate, there's no reason to rigidly adhere to suspension of disbelief.

Boba Fett is also dead according to Lucas...and yet he lives.

So dumbfuck...care to demonstrate observed phenomena vs creator words on this subject or are you so stuck up your ass you can't see beyond your shit stained goggles?

Ghost Rider wrote:

Eframepilot wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote: I keep forgetting that because it is demonstrated the Emperor became more powerful in the time of RoTS to RoTJ that Lucas can supercede this, thus let us see which parisomny favors moron.

1. Some mysterious thing barred Vader to being more powerful then the Emperor because of potential.

The loss of four limbs, severe burns and lifelong dependence on a respirator as well as the emotional trauma of losing Padme and her child is hardly "some mysterious thing".

2. Vader still has the potential but is unable to supercede Palpatine because he doesn't have the same level of knowledge or resources that the old geezer has.

Fuck, I wonder which we can chose.

Again, it's not a matter of parsimony but a matter of whether we should accept the word of the creator over our own analyses based entirely on in-universe information. For a non-versus debate, there's no reason to rigidly adhere to suspension of disbelief.

Boba Fett is also dead according to Lucas...and yet he lives.

So dumbfuck...care to demonstrate observed phenomena vs creator words on this subject or are you so stuck up your ass you can't see beyond your shit stained goggles?

The latter, I suppose. I accept that Boba Fett is dead per Lucas's words and think of his later appearances in EU as imaginary stories; ditto with Dark Empire Palpatine. This is just personal interpretation, though, and isn't something that can be debated. If Lucas said something that directly and obviously contradicted the movies ("Han Solo is a woman") then he would be wrong, but if he only offers an interpretation of the movies or "merely" contradicts the EU, I usually defer to his opinion. In the same way, in analyzing Tolkien's works, if Tolkien himself expressed an opinion in a letter or some notes, I accept that above any fan theories.

Eframepilot wrote:The latter, I suppose. I accept that Boba Fett is dead per Lucas's words and think of his later appearances in EU as imaginary stories; ditto with Dark Empire Palpatine. This is just personal interpretation, though, and isn't something that can be debated. If Lucas said something that directly and obviously contradicted the movies ("Han Solo is a woman") then he would be wrong, but if he only offers an interpretation of the movies or "merely" contradicts the EU, I usually defer to his opinion. In the same way, in analyzing Tolkien's works, if Tolkien himself expressed an opinion in a letter or some notes, I accept that above any fan theories.

Movies only, eh?

All fine by me, but it would have been a wise idea to inform people about it sooner. In any case, it has been established in EU that Palpatine also grew in power and knowledge and that's why Vader didn't move against him; however, by the ANH, Vader clearly has ideas about redistribution of power with his Sith master and in RotJ he has clear visions how the coup d'etat will come true. Both in Dark Lord and in Empire comic, Vader is still learning the dark arts of the Sith, so he doesn't yet make any (obvious) move to the throne.

Stravo wrote:

PayBack wrote: As to the final fight where he defeats Vader, I find that hard to explain his victory except for the fact he was fighting for the life of his sister, giving him greater motivation.

It's not hard to explain. Luke channeled the Dark Side and it made him much more powerful. That was raw fury he was using at the end. Vader was quite simply overwhelmed. Luke went from challenging opponent to unstoppable killing machine in a matter of seconds and Vader simply could not compensate in time and his defenses were battered down.

But also Look at the Beginning of the Fight. Luke was Fighting Defensively and it is clear at that point that that he was the stronger of the two. Both the ROTJ Novel and the comic allude and describe it so.

Cykeisme wrote:Dark Lord contradicts this.

While the ANH novelization refers to mental-level Force jockeying in the final duel between Vader and Kenobi, there is no mention of it in Dark Lord. It specifically states that Vader defeats multiple Jedi simultaneously simply through the application of superior swordsmanship (and, well, brute physical strength).

Then we are forced to wonder why Vader had deteriorated so much that, during ANH, his swordsmanship alone couldn't have bested a novice.

Either that, or both Obi-Wan and Vader slow each other down considerably, and that same situation occurs consistently during every OT duel.

Question on the Dark Lord 'sabre fights: was Vader dueling other high-level Jedi? Or were they the weak ones of the Order, who managed to hide away during Order 66? Because, remember, Obi-Wan is not an average Jedi: he ascended from padawan to council-member in less than three decades, and he managed to hold his own against Vader for a long time in RotS.

Surlethe wrote:Question on the Dark Lord 'sabre fights: was Vader dueling other high-level Jedi? Or were they the weak ones of the Order, who managed to hide away during Order 66? Because, remember, Obi-Wan is not an average Jedi: he ascended from padawan to council-member in less than three decades, and he managed to hold his own against Vader for a long time in RotS.

Shryne and Starstone's master were both reasonably skilled, probably above your average knight, but the rest were either padawans, very badly wounded, or lower-level (Agri-corps/Healers/Recruiters).

Eframepilot wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote: I keep forgetting that because it is demonstrated the Emperor became more powerful in the time of RoTS to RoTJ that Lucas can supercede this, thus let us see which parisomny favors moron.

1. Some mysterious thing barred Vader to being more powerful then the Emperor because of potential.

The loss of four limbs, severe burns and lifelong dependence on a respirator as well as the emotional trauma of losing Padme and her child is hardly "some mysterious thing".
snip

Emperor Palpatine in Dark Lord wrote: But Sith power rsided not in the flesh but in the will....Vader's real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical, and for Vader to overcome them he would need to be driven deeper into himself...

Surlethe wrote:Question on the Dark Lord 'sabre fights: was Vader dueling other high-level Jedi? Or were they the weak ones of the Order, who managed to hide away during Order 66? Because, remember, Obi-Wan is not an average Jedi: he ascended from padawan to council-member in less than three decades, and he managed to hold his own against Vader for a long time in RotS.

Actually a better showing was Purge(one shot of Vader).

He pretty much carves through 5 Jedi masters before they pool up and take him down, but get ambushed by a squad, and Vader TK holds another master as he gets riddled.

Eleas wrote:

Cykeisme wrote:Dark Lord contradicts this.

While the ANH novelization refers to mental-level Force jockeying in the final duel between Vader and Kenobi, there is no mention of it in Dark Lord. It specifically states that Vader defeats multiple Jedi simultaneously simply through the application of superior swordsmanship (and, well, brute physical strength).

Then we are forced to wonder why Vader had deteriorated so much that, during ANH, his swordsmanship alone couldn't have bested a novice.

Either that, or both Obi-Wan and Vader slow each other down considerably, and that same situation occurs consistently during every OT duel.

Look at the way that Dooku performed in AOTC and RotS, he is not a young guy. Moreover just because the ANH sabre fight did not have them both jumping around like hyper monkeys, does not mean much, only that they, to a degree, cancelled the other out.

Ghost Rider wrote:He pretty much carves through 5 Jedi masters before they pool up and take him down, but get ambushed by a squad, and Vader TK holds another master as he gets riddled.

They beat him? Not that losing to five Jedi Masters is anything to snort at, but did they actually beat him (or WOULD they have beaten him if his reinforcements didnt show up)?

NeoGoomba wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:He pretty much carves through 5 Jedi masters before they pool up and take him down, but get ambushed by a squad, and Vader TK holds another master as he gets riddled.

They beat him? Not that losing to five Jedi Masters is anything to snort at, but did they actually beat him (or WOULD they have beaten him if his reinforcements didnt show up)?

They would've beaten him. At this point he's pretty much hurting something serious, when the reinforcements come they take down one Jedi master, the last two try to mount an escape..and Vader TK grabs one as the other gets cut down, and the last one dies suspended in mid air being riddled by blaster shots.

This Purge comic sounds very, very interesting.

I feel very strongly about piracy and copyright infringement, and it would be a real crying shame if someone with a scan of the comic were to suddenly PM me about obtaining a copy of it!
A REAL CRYING SHAME.

Eleas wrote:Then we are forced to wonder why Vader had deteriorated so much that, during ANH, his swordsmanship alone couldn't have bested a novice.

Either that, or both Obi-Wan and Vader slow each other down considerably, and that same situation occurs consistently during every OT duel.

Note that I made a distinction between Vader's fighting in Dark Lord, and the ANH duel: in Dark Lord, he used pure swordsmanship, whereas in ANH, the novelization states that it was also a Super Mind Power Battle Extreme
Also, I don't know much about kendo, but I've been told that masters at advanced ages fight with a minimum of movement, but are easily able to defeat younger, more agile practitioners. Assuming there were two masters staring each other down and trying to overpower each others wills, it might end up looking something like what we see in ANH.

Cykeisme wrote: Note that I made a distinction between Vader's fighting in Dark Lord, and the ANH duel: in Dark Lord, he used pure swordsmanship, whereas in ANH, the novelization states that it was also a Super Mind Power Battle Extreme
Also, I don't know much about kendo, but I've been told that masters at advanced ages fight with a minimum of movement, but are easily able to defeat younger, more agile practitioners. Assuming there were two masters staring each other down and trying to overpower each others wills, it might end up looking something like what we see in ANH.

As a counterpoint we can look at ROTS where a much older than Obi Wan Count Dooku agilely defended against two oppoenents - one of whom was the chosen one and was not slwoed down a wit from making some rather acrobatic and physically powerful moves. Sort of flies in the face of the thought that Vader and Obi Wan were somehow frozen in place on the Deathstar.

As to the Kendo Masters not wasting movement point - Dooku (master of Form II), Obi Wan (THE Soresu Master) Anakin (adept/Master of Shien) were all quite acrobatic and twirly in their duel so how does that jibe with what we saw in ANH? Need I point out that Mace Windu and Palpatine both masters of their forms were also quite acrobatic and wasteful of movement. OH, and Yoda master of Ataru and Palpatine that's right they were also quite acrobatic and twirly.

Are we going to say that in all these examples none of these masters were also dueling on a mental plane or were slowed down by force walls or what have you?

You might say that Obi Wan's form demands less acrobatic moves - to which I point to the duel on Mustafar where he was keeping up with Anakin and was doing flashy twirling throughout and the earlier duel with Dooku on the Invisisble Hand.

IMO that duel in ANH looks worse and worse in comparison to what we've seen in the prequels and even later on in the OT and no amount of spin about mental battles and kendo masters is gonna save it.

Ghost Rider wrote:

Eframepilot wrote:

Tiriol wrote: No, I think that Ghost Rider is trying to say is that Palpatine also progressed in power and knowledge of the dark side (and I don't merely think so, since he bloody wrote it). Palpatine didn't have to limit Vader's growth in the dark powers, since the old man himself also kept growing in power and accumulating dark knowledge (it is spelled out in New Essential Guide to Characters: Grand Vizier Sate Pestage was practically running the Empire at some point because Palpatine's time was all but consumed by his studies of the dark side).

Yeah, I got that, but that is also not in agreement with Lucas as the Chosen One was supposed to be more potentially powerful than the Emperor no matter how skilled in the dark side the Emperor became. It's a matter of EU vs. Lucas.

I keep forgetting that because it is demonstrated the Emperor became more powerful in the time of RoTS to RoTJ that Lucas can supercede this, thus let us see which parisomny favors moron.

1. Some mysterious thing barred Vader to being more powerful then the Emperor because of potential.

2. Vader still has the potential but is unable to supercede Palpatine because he doesn't have the same level of knowledge or resources that the old geezer has.

Fuck, I wonder which we can chose.

Or he was physically and emotionally handicapped.

ROTS Novelization p417-418 wrote:
This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker, forever;...

...(And)you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end you cannot touch the shadow.

In the end you do not even want to.

In the end, the shadow is all you have left.

Because the shadow understands you, the shadow forgives you, the shadow gathers you into itself-
And within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame.
This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Forever.

While there is nothing that says Vaders power could not have increased, there are obvious physical restrictions on how far it could grow. The fact that he didn't possess the Emperors resources in further expanding his power just makes it worse for him.

Cykeisme wrote:
Note that I made a distinction between Vader's fighting in Dark Lord, and the ANH duel: in Dark Lord, he used pure swordsmanship, whereas in ANH, the novelization states that it was also a Super Mind Power Battle Extreme
.

Where does it say that?

Stravo wrote:
IMO that duel in ANH looks worse and worse in comparison to what we've seen in the prequels and even later on in the OT and no amount of spin about mental battles and kendo masters is gonna save it.

I have found in my close combat training that if you have two guys who know the others moves then you get a stalemate, then it comes down to reach and strength. When I trained with army NCO's, I lasted all of two seconeds 95% of the time because they knew more and were stonger. There was nothing flashy about it.
I have also 'dueled' a few guys who do kendo and have done so for some time {note I dont do any kind of sword training}and have successfully held them of by doing nothing more than what Vader/Obi do in ANH. There was nothing flashy about it.

Simply put, you do not need to be flashy to be effective, you only need to be effective.

Vaporous wrote:
While there is nothing that says Vaders power could not have increased, there are obvious physical restrictions on how far it could grow. The fact that he didn't possess the Emperors resources in further expanding his power just makes it worse for him.

Read the comments further up from Dark Lord. Vader got past it.

About the whole thing of Vader's powers being restricted by his physical condition, Yoda also had physical handicaps. Granted, they weren't as bad and his were mainly old age but other than that there is hardly any differences. Both were physically weak, Vader was slow and Yoda grunts when he walks and needs a cane.

During battle, Yoda obviously overcomes his physical shortcomings and hops around like Mario drunk on starman. Why isn't it the same for Vader? Couldn't he overcome some of his handicaps?

At a guess, I'd say that Vader's handicap is so much greater than Yoda's that to even function normally requires a similar effort that Yoda uses to fight.

Stravo wrote:MO that duel in ANH looks worse and worse in comparison to what we've seen in the prequels and even later on in the OT and no amount of spin about mental battles and kendo masters is gonna save it.

That was the only in-SoD explanation I can think of to explain why the ANH duel is the only realistic swordfight without twirling, flourishes and jumping

Stuart Mackey wrote:

Cykeisme wrote:Note that I made a distinction between Vader's fighting in Dark Lord, and the ANH duel: in Dark Lord, he used pure swordsmanship, whereas in ANH, the novelization states that it was also a Super Mind Power Battle Extreme
.

Where does it say that?

Referring to which, Dark Lord or the ANH novelization?

Darth Yoshi wrote:At a guess, I'd say that Vader's handicap is so much greater than Yoda's that to even function normally requires a similar effort that Yoda uses to fight.

Hmm, maybe Yoda is keeping himself alive with the Force, and when he died in RotJ, he consciously let go. Just a possibility.

It's possible. A Dathomiri witch lived to be 300 using the Force to stave off death. Of course, she was quite senile.

Cykeisme wrote:Referring to which, Dark Lord or the ANH novelization?

Sorry, ANH Novelisation.

Stuart Mackey wrote:

Cykeisme wrote:Referring to which, Dark Lord or the ANH novelization?

Sorry, ANH Novelisation.

Yarrr, I don't have the book with me.

Roughly, it describes Obi-Wan's vision clouding, his eyes looking bleary, sweat beading on his forehead, and Vader coinciding by telling him that his powers were weak.
Anyone have a copy of ANH on hand to provide a quote?