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Master of Ossus wrote:I thought that the point was that the clones are pretty well genetically perfect (except they do have the slightest tendency to bump their heads). If that is the case, then it does not make sense to conscript others into officer programs, or to place others in charge of naval forces (which are the primary instrument through which power is conveyed and projected). You want the clones to fill the most important areas, particularly since they will also be fanatically loyal. You do not want to put regular conscripts in charge of more important things, and even in command of clones.

The point of the clones is that the Emperor can cultivate a fanatical army of elite soldiers.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Crazy_Vasey wrote:I don't think they ever mentioned Han going to the academy in the films themselves.

Strawman. I never claimed that they mentioned Han was going to the Academy. They DO mention that Luke dreamed of going to an academy, and that Biggs had already gone. This establishes the Academy as being canonical.

I took it to be some sort of Naval Academy.

I need to watch the DVD again and put on the commentary. I never did that with TPM. Either way to me, it was pretty well a set thing in my head that they would have been clones. I just don't see how you can conscript that many inidviduals and keep them loyal. Especually under the guise that thier family or planet or whatever will suffer if they don't. Really, after a few million get together it should be rather safe to assume you could rebel and not feel the wrath. Also I don't see how it's overridden that much of the EU. There are easy explanations to the Thrawn trilogy to keep it flowing. Besides, Lucas has said many many times in interviews (much like the ones at the beginning of the first SE realeases) that the books were there for the fans but not part of his vision. One thing that stuck out is he questioned everyone's devotion to Boba Fett. He gave one of those looks and said he knew that they brought him back. Either way, if he overrides EU so what. There are plenty of areas where the movies, the novels or the radio dramas just flatten the books. It's painfully blatant. Take the NJO. They are amazed that something can come INTO the galaxy. Had the officials at lucasfilms that head the book department even remotely researched the radio dramas (cannon mind you) they would have found that the Rebels went outside the outter rim to hide. No surprise there. In fact I need to look over, but the novelisation might say something about that too.

His Divine Shadow wrote:The point of the clones is that the Emperor can cultivate a fanatical army of elite soldiers.

No that is a brain bug. What we ARE told in the movies is that the clones have been altered to be less independant than the original host (Jango) AND TO FOLLOW ORDERS WITHOUT QUESTION. This is the important part. We see this in AotC. Clonetrooper; We need to get to the forward command cetre. Padme; No we don't. Clonetrooper; No we don't. See the problem? Here is someone which has absolutely NO standing in the military and yet she gives an order and he jumps!

This is the problem. Why make and army of 'fanatical elite' soldiers, and place them under the command of recruited officers? It's not in the stormtroopers (or more acurately clonetroopers) personality to refuse or contradict his superior/commanding officer. Lets not even get to the point where they, being especially designed to be weak minded, were particularly suseptable to Jedi. George if you are reading this it's a stupid idea. Don't do it.

It's quite obvious that the Clonetrooper commanders are also clones.

Yes they are, and yet they were under the orders of Yoda. Again they followed his instructions without hesitation. The point is they are always under someone else (officers) so you build this totally loyal army (questionable) but you place them under the command of recruited officers.

neoolong wrote:Is Kamino the only place that the Kaminoans have cloning centers on? Remember, the Republic clone army isn't the first clone army they have made.

Almost nobody know of the Kaminoans, and if they had cloning centers outside their homeworld, it would be harder to delete their homeworld from the Jedi Archives. It might still be possible that the Kaminoans own cloning centers on other planets, but that they are administered by non-Kaminoans.

One might say that the Kaminoans could pass for other species, as there are a few species who look much like the Kaminoans, such as the Quermians and Gasgano's species, but there are differences:

1. Quermians and Gasgano have 4 and 6 arms respectively - Kaminoans only have two.
2. Kaminoans appear much taller than Gasgano, and probably a bit taller than the Quermian jedi master Yarael Poof. (I can't access the Starwars.Com site currently - so I can't get exact data on their height but I know that most Kaminoans are 7-8 feet tall)
3. Quermians and Gasgano have no visible noses - but Kaminoans have something which looks like a nose.
4. The head shape of a Kaminoan is also unmistakable.

So - the Kaminoans could own cloning facilities offworld - but Kaminoans would rarely, if ever, visit these.

Outside of ANH, all stormtroopers are left-handed.

There's plenty of evidence that they were always intended to be clones, while the only thing against it is the low budget for ANH and some EU material. That latter isn't a problem, the former is.. but only if you want it to be. Clones doesn't all need to be just one copy, and in fact, it helps if they aren't. There's no problem with EU material either. Either the Empire started to fill out the ranks with recruits when cloning ran short, or they give memories to the clones to give them mental stability, plus they DO need training facilities such as Carida.. until the advent of Thrawn's cheaper clones, that is.

Also note that "elite" Stormtroopers selected for duties such as Royal Guards and Spacetroopers, 'simply' are Stormtroopers that have survived and been successful for years. Experience makes a difference.

No that is a brain bug.

No, its fact, it's already said that it's the reason the Stormtrooper corps was created to begin with.

What we ARE told in the movies is that the clones have been altered to be less independant than the original host (Jango) AND TO FOLLOW ORDERS WITHOUT QUESTION. This is the important part. We see this in AotC. Clonetrooper; We need to get to the forward command cetre. Padme; No we don't. Clonetrooper; No we don't. See the problem? Here is someone which has absolutely NO standing in the military and yet she gives an order and he jumps!

And who says the stormies have to be like the clones?
It's rather clear the Emperor re-modeled them to be fanatically loyal to him alone.

*snip*

nightmare wrote:Outside of ANH, all stormtroopers are left-handed.

There's plenty of evidence that they were always intended to be clones, while the only thing against it is the low budget for ANH and some EU material. That latter isn't a problem, the former is.. but only if you want it to be. Clones doesn't all need to be just one copy, and in fact, it helps if they aren't. There's no problem with EU material either. Either the Empire started to fill out the ranks with recruits when cloning ran short, or they give memories to the clones to give them mental stability, plus they DO need training facilities such as Carida.. until the advent of Thrawn's cheaper clones, that is.

Also note that "elite" Stormtroopers selected for duties such as Royal Guards and Spacetroopers, 'simply' are Stormtroopers that have survived and been successful for years. Experience makes a difference.

Yes, but the problem as in Crinsom Empire, each Guardsmen has indivuality. If Jax was so loyal why did he takeover the Empire? And experince only mkes a difference if you train them too learn other wise it is survival, mere survival. Unless you lax their clone 'training' too teach them flucate learning possibly becoming disloyal or being unorthodoxed.

Captain Lennox wrote:Yes, but the problem as in Crinsom Empire, each Guardsmen has indivuality. If Jax was so loyal why did he takeover the Empire? And experince only mkes a difference if you train them too learn other wise it is survival, mere survival. Unless you lax their clone 'training' too teach them flucate learning possibly becoming disloyal or being unorthodoxed.

So what if they have individuality? Is this like unlikely?
No it's not, plus anyone remember what we talked about just a few pages prior, variance of DNA materials and personalities?

*Mutter* Are you people trying to create contradictions or what?

His Divine Shadow wrote:

Captain Lennox wrote:Yes, but the problem as in Crinsom Empire, each Guardsmen has indivuality. If Jax was so loyal why did he takeover the Empire? And experince only mkes a difference if you train them too learn other wise it is survival, mere survival. Unless you lax their clone 'training' too teach them flucate learning possibly becoming disloyal or being unorthodoxed.

So what if they have individuality? Is this like unlikely?
No it's not, plus anyone remember what we talked about just a few pages prior, variance of DNA materials and personalities?

*Mutter* Are you people trying to create contradictions or what?

I dunno, I'm trying too just figure it out for myself. But HDS how different personality types they would make so, the Stormtroopers wouldn't notice all that much? Like a battalion or regiment of indivual personalties?

Captain Lennox wrote:I dunno, I'm trying too just figure it out for myself. But HDS how different personality types they would make so, the Stormtroopers wouldn't notice all that much? Like a battalion or regiment of indivual personalties?

They get different personalities as they use different DNA sources and therefore different mind-imprints, which makes them look less "clonish", plus we know that even the Jango clones where somewhat different too in apperance, and as they are trained and generally just living will result in divergence of personalities and individual looks.

His Divine Shadow wrote:

Captain Lennox wrote:I dunno, I'm trying too just figure it out for myself. But HDS how different personality types they would make so, the Stormtroopers wouldn't notice all that much? Like a battalion or regiment of indivual personalties?

They get different personalities as they use different DNA sources and therefore different mind-imprints, which makes them look less "clonish", plus we know that even the Jango clones where somewhat different too in apperance, and as they are trained and generally just living will result in divergence of personalities and individual looks.

Thanks, HDS. So, basically they use a randomizer?

Captain Lennox wrote:Thanks, HDS. So, basically they use a randomizer?

Beyond the natural randomizer of individual experience they've sure tried to, thats my theory anyway.

I love the way HDS just answers everyone's issues about this revelation and squares it away with the EU. I am supremely impressed.

Indeed, Starvo.

HDS, the randomizer would explain why the Rebels could never counter tactics or individualty.

Oh please stop my face is blushing, and when that happens I go on killing sprees

*shrug*

It works. I still think it would've been better to say they were just conscripts inspired by the clone troopers and been done. I still feel Lucas' comments are unnecessary and stupid.

I Yeah, Illuminatus I still prefer the Training Idea, though if George goes along the idea of cloning I'd rther know how it works.

Captain Lennox wrote:I Yeah, Illuminatus I still prefer the Training Idea, though if George goes along the idea of cloning I'd rther know how it works.

They could train troopers, they could create a totally artificial mind-pattern that'll leave the trooper pretty blank but with a functional personality of sorts, then they are trained in a conventional fashion.
There mere act of living and a slightly different body will create indviduality.

Thats just an idea though.

Eh, either way, it could work, stormies being clones is just like a big conspiracy the Emperor had hidden infront of the galaxies nose, kinda neat.

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:I need to watch the DVD again and put on the commentary. I never did that with TPM. Either way to me, it was pretty well a set thing in my head that they would have been clones. I just don't see how you can conscript that many inidviduals and keep them loyal.

Why not? People are conscripted all the time in real life. The Soviet Union did not have mass-mutinies. I think a lot of people have some severe misunderstandings of how hard it is to create a half-way decent army. And where have we seen the Army troopers?

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:There are easy explanations to the Thrawn trilogy to keep it flowing. Besides, Lucas has said many many times in interviews (much like the ones at the beginning of the first SE realeases) that the books were there for the fans but not part of his vision.

How can you correct the idea that the certain stormies were selected by Thrawn for cloning based on performance but not others if there were probably just a dozen or so variations of stormies anyway?

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:One thing that stuck out is he questioned everyone's devotion to Boba Fett. He gave one of those looks and said he knew that they brought him back.

What a hypocrite. He brought back Boba Fett to try and get more fans and to increase the popularity of AOTC.

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:Either way, if he overrides EU so what. There are plenty of areas where the movies, the novels or the radio dramas just flatten the books. It's painfully blatant.

Not really, most of it can be explained away massively easily.

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:Take the NJO. They are amazed that something can come INTO the galaxy. Had the officials at lucasfilms that head the book department even remotely researched the radio dramas (cannon mind you) they would have found that the Rebels went outside the outter rim to hide. No surprise there. In fact I need to look over, but the novelisation might say something about that too.

You can't be telling me about the retarded end scene of ESB. Saxton already debunked the retarded "galaxy" myth. What's more, they were suprised that a hyperdrive could penetrate the rim of the galactic halo, as they'd gone outside the Outer Rim many times, it's called the Unknown Regions, and it was invented by the EU.

And personally, I've enjoyed some EU more then the prequels.

His Divine Shadow wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:Is the idea that stormtroopers are clones but pilots, who always wear a modified version of the same helmet, are not? Or is Lucas going to go back and delete the part in ANH where Luke Skywalker talked about going to the Academy?

Well I figure it like this, after clone-wars, cloning outlawed, so everything else became "normalized", possibly even prior to it.

Ofcourse Palpy still wanted his own core-group of fanatical soldiers so he created the stormtrooper core, which noone really know how they where created or where they came from, and add to that lots of different DNA samples and methods to make the clones look different and it'd be hard for anyone to figure out they where clones.

Heck he might even start a rumor that says that stormies really come from this secret hard-ass planet on the rim, a humanoid like people of brutal warriors, which would also make people less suspicious if they saw they where a bit too like, that is if they ever saw them without their helmets.

So instead of thinking of cloning they think they got it all down, that stormies are some humans aliens from another planet.

I find the idea that he would come up with just elaborate randomization and modification and secrecy yet still waste money cloning to be laughable.

Most of the clones would still have been mostly identical, and there would've been little point in Thrawn's personal selection of the templates for his new clones.

Why would Thrawn been so specific about pick particular stormies to clone? And the guards?

I think the best way to fix things is either to decide that conscription eventually phased over cloning, or that Lucas' "clones are the stormtroopers" statement be taken to mean that the clonetroopers become the Empire's stormtroopers as in the inspiration for that later branch, or that the clonetrooper corps were the conceptual parent of the later stormtroopers. That one branch "evolves" into the other, and that the appearance of the clones marks the beginning of the Empire. This is why the above makes sense:

1) We already know that the clones cannot literally be the stormtroopers, as they age 2x as fast. They'd be in their 50's or 60's by ANH.

2) Kamino couldn't possibly turn out enough clones to supply the entire Empire.

3) Since it is established that Lucas' quote cannot be taken literally due to common sense, it follows that one could rationalize that the clonetroopers evolved into the stormtroopers, and that by the late OT were nearly all conscripts.

4) One cannot rationalize the Jedi Academy Trilogy's reference to Kyp Durron's brother and Zahn's references to the specific choosing of individuals that should've been clones anyway. Simply put, if they were clones there would've only been a limited number of variations to begin with, and Thrawn would've analyzed statistics on the various clone lines' performace to choose which to manufacture, he would not have choosen individuals based on peformance, that's what you would've done if they were all unique.

5) Since we're saying that clones were a small branch anyway (compared to the entire Empire), how hard would've it been to simply take mostly die-hard recruits, personally analyzed and likely coming from a Hitler-youth-like organization sponsered by COMPNOR, who were then genetically tested and augmented before being put through intense training and political indoctrination/brainwashing? The genetic modification (perhaps using genes of excellent troops and even remaining genomic information of Jango himself) retains a direct lineage with the original clones while simultaneously allow the EU to make sense without coming up with truly bizarre fixes.

6) Given the above, combined with the fact we already cannot take the Lucas quote correct 100%, and the fact it makes little sense that just the stormtroopers were clones that were somehow randomized and confused into thinking they were normal just doesn't hold logical water.

Compromise Theory:

The stormies are initially clones.

When the Emperor is crowned and the Empire established, the stormtroopers are formed from the best-performing veterans of the clonetroopers during the War. All of the stormtroopers at this time are veteran clone foot soldiers from the Clone Wars.

COMPNOR encourages enlistment, and the most fanatical recruits are tested and the best performing are recommended for stormtrooper placement.

The recruits are first tested for optimal genetic makeup for superior soldiers, and also to scan for any trace of non-human DNA. Those who pass are subjected to gene therapy for initial training that amps up basic intelligence strength/speed/endurance. Stormtrooper training graduates are placed in specialization groups, and given additional gene therapy for their specialization (cold weather, heavy armor, scouting, aqua environments, shipboard troops, command, etc). (These will be your more green-seeming troopers, like Kyp Durron's brother, Davin Felth, and such)
The expensive training and indoctrination infrastructure and gene samples for the stormtrooper program are highly controlled and are lost in the post-Endor chaos, leaving a shortage of true stormtroopers by the time of Thrawn's return.

Example: Stormtroopers on Tattoine at the beginning of ANH.

The remaining clone stormtrooper regiments are placed at the head of combat zones to thin their ranks, as the Empire doesn't wish to pay any sort of retirement benefit to manufactured troops. The surviving and excelling members of the all-clone regiments are promoted to stormtrooper officers and are subjected to gene therapy to slow their 2x aging and to reinsert command and independence traits edited out from Jango originally and given command of non-clone regiments in many cases.

A small-number corps of the overall stormtroopers, the secluded "Elite Stormtroopers" referred to in Shadows of the Empire are actually clones. Secretly manufactured and with little to no real personal identity they are suicidal, fanatical, and supremely skilled, they're the commandoes of the stormtroopers and are mysterious and anonymous even to the other stormtroopers. Never remove their helmets and are never promoted. Live and die as weapons for the Emperor. Their officers are veteran stormtroopers from the other cadre and Royal Guards are leave from the Guard itself as described in the Hand of Thrawn duology. (these are the true elites)

Example: Stormtrooper legion on Endor's surface refered to by Palpatine as some of his "best troops."

The non-clone stormtroopers which are better then any others and show Force potential are primed for training at Yinchoor and form the Royal Guard, which in turn has a higher cadre of virtual one-man-armies trained with limited use of the Dark Side known as the Imperial Soveriegn Protectors.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Why not? People are conscripted all the time in real life. The Soviet Union did not have mass-mutinies. I think a lot of people have some severe misunderstandings of how hard it is to create a half-way decent army. And where have we seen the Army troopers?

I like how you cut out most of post to make your point. While under the knowledge THAT THIER FAMILIES AND PLANETS are going to be harmed. That is mentioned all of the time in the EU. So I ask again.

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:There are easy explanations to the Thrawn trilogy to keep it flowing. Besides, Lucas has said many many times in interviews (much like the ones at the beginning of the first SE realeases) that the books were there for the fans but not part of his vision.

How can you correct the idea that the certain stormies were selected by Thrawn for cloning based on performance but not others if there were probably just a dozen or so variations of stormies anyway?

I think you answered your own question. But you made that one hell of a confusing line there. Why would Thrawn choose some stormies and not others? Hmm let's think. Oh yes because some suck? Not all of the stormtroopers are clones if we follow the EU. In fact I can see some troopers and personell not being clones if there is peolpe like Luke, or Han trying to join the Academy.

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:One thing that stuck out is he questioned everyone's devotion to Boba Fett. He gave one of those looks and said he knew that they brought him back.

What a hypocrite. He brought back Boba Fett to try and get more fans and to increase the popularity of AOTC.

Hyporcrite? Watch the movie again. Jango is all bad ass through the movie then suddenly he just stands there while Mace charges him. Then his head is lopped off. That and he probably knew of the origin created for Boba Fett. Seems more like a slap in the face to his officials who okay the books. Not only that it gives it an ironic twist now.

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:Either way, if he overrides EU so what. There are plenty of areas where the movies, the novels or the radio dramas just flatten the books. It's painfully blatant.

Not really, most of it can be explained away massively easily.

No it can't. The movies, novelisations, the scripts and the radio dramas form a huge fucking umbrella. I've been rereading my books again and I'm catching things constantly. I know you can't have 100%, but still, there are some glarin errors.

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:Take the NJO. They are amazed that something can come INTO the galaxy. Had the officials at lucasfilms that head the book department even remotely researched the radio dramas (cannon mind you) they would have found that the Rebels went outside the outter rim to hide. No surprise there. In fact I need to look over, but the novelisation might say something about that too.

You can't be telling me about the retarded end scene of ESB. Saxton already debunked the retarded "galaxy" myth. What's more, they were suprised that a hyperdrive could penetrate the rim of the galactic halo, as they'd gone outside the Outer Rim many times, it's called the Unknown Regions, and it was invented by the EU.

No numb nuts. Read my post, and if you quote it, quote the whole thing. The radio drama has it in there. Also for your information, the 'Unknown Regions' are not beyond the outer rim. It would be wild space anyways seeing how that beyond the rim is OPEN SPACE. Here is a passage from Vector Prime

p34 hardcover

Before this moment, no one had ever witnessed evidence of, let alone the actual event of, and extragalactic breach. Many scientists argued that such a breach could not even be accomplished. Certainly several brave explorers, and a couple of desperate outlaws being chased by the authorities, had gone inot the turbulence of the galactic rim over the last few decades, but none had ever been heard from again.

Never again? So then the Rebel fleet mentioned in the radio drama or as seen in ESB never came back?

And personally, I've enjoyed some EU more then the prequels.

You don't know how much that saddens me.

I find the idea that he would come up with just elaborate randomization and modification and secrecy yet still waste money cloning to be laughable.

Most of the clones would still have been mostly identical, and there would've been little point in Thrawn's personal selection of the templates for his new clones.

But by the time Thrawn comes to take over who says he still has all of those clones. In AotC novelisation it's stated they prefer samples from the original 'Jango Fett'. This could mean that the original samples deteriorate or become rather useless after a while. Therefore Thrawn needs new templates.

Why would Thrawn been so specific about pick particular stormies to clone? And the guards?

Maybe because he operates differently than Palpatine. Would you want Jango clones running around all dumbfounded or clones that match your tactical genius?

I think the best way to fix things is either to decide that conscription eventually phased over cloning, or that Lucas' "clones are the stormtroopers" statement be taken to mean that the clonetroopers become the Empire's stormtroopers as in the inspiration for that later branch, or that the clonetrooper corps were the conceptual parent of the later stormtroopers. That one branch "evolves" into the other, and that the appearance of the clones marks the beginning of the Empire. This is why the above makes sense:

1) We already know that the clones cannot literally be the stormtroopers, as they age 2x as fast. They'd be in their 50's or 60's by ANH

.

Why would they still be the same clones? In ANH they'd have newer clones. Make the old ones go out on deadly missions and poof, problem solved.

2) Kamino couldn't possibly turn out enough clones to supply the entire Empire.

Are you sure. The Geonosians were going to help with the Death Star and thier fucking grasshoppers. Why can't Q-Tips supply the Empire with clones. What if they find a way to grow them quicker.

3) Since it is established that Lucas' quote cannot be taken literally due to common sense, it follows that one could rationalize that the clonetroopers evolved into the stormtroopers, and that by the late OT were nearly all conscripts.

So now your reasons override Lucas' statements. I'll mark that down.

4) One cannot rationalize the Jedi Academy Trilogy's reference to Kyp Durron's brother and Zahn's references to the specific choosing of individuals that should've been clones anyway. Simply put, if they were clones there would've only been a limited number of variations to begin with, and Thrawn would've analyzed statistics on the various clone lines' performace to choose which to manufacture, he would not have choosen individuals based on peformance, that's what you would've done if they were all unique.

What the fuck? Kyp's brother, Zahn, what the hell are you going on about? Kyp's brother was conscripted harshly. That's more in support of what I said, that you can't have troopers like him. KJA tried to rationalize that he was brainwashed. Either way. Why would you not choose an individual based on performance? What would you choose them on otherwise?

5) Since we're saying that clones were a small branch anyway (compared to the entire Empire), how hard would've it been to simply take mostly die-hard recruits, personally analyzed and likely coming from a Hitler-youth-like organization sponsered by COMPNOR, who were then genetically tested and augmented before being put through intense training and political indoctrination/brainwashing? The genetic modification (perhaps using genes of excellent troops and even remaining genomic information of Jango himself) retains a direct lineage with the original clones while simultaneously allow the EU to make sense without coming up with truly bizarre fixes.

Who's coming up with bizarre fixes, besides yourself? Stormtroopers are clones. CLONES. C-L-O-N-E-S. You can toss in conscripts and willing joiners all day long. There are CLONES among them. If not the majority.

6) Given the above, combined with the fact we already cannot take the Lucas quote correct 100%, and the fact it makes little sense that just the stormtroopers were clones that were somehow randomized and confused into thinking they were normal just doesn't hold logical water.

Only you cannot take Lucas' quote at 100% because it doesn't support you. Who says they were confused to thinking they were normal. They're fucking clones. The Kaminoans fucked with thier genetic template. They don't have to think about anything except following orders.