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Kartr_Kana wrote:I did spanky and all I got for it was a headache! This new cannon thing is not making much sense, like "we choose what is popular" well what is "popular" changes from time to time does the cannon change with it?

Cannon policy is easy;

Movies first (revised editions over originals) so;

TPM, AotC, RotS, ANH-Special Edition, TESB-Special Edition, RotJ-Special Edition are ultimate cannon followed by;

ANH, TESB, RotJ (original)

Then anything based on the movies;

Novelisations, Screenplays, etc.

This is known as 'G-Level' canon or ultimate canon, or simply canon. The 'G' stands for George.

Under this we have the EU, the games and such as 'C-Level' canon, or 'quasi-canon'. The 'C' stands for continuity.

And under that we have the 'Infinites' which are not canon, and have nothing to do with the continuity.

With all of these levels newer sources outweigh the older ones (newer>older), which is why the newer versions of the same movies (the special editions) are more authoritive than the the older ones (the original).

And why are the clone wars not clone wars like obi wan implied in ANH. Clone Wars means that clones are fighting each other not droids.

Because the 'flanelled one' makes it up as he goes along.

And if GL really did work with Zahn on the Thrawn Trilogy then why did he change the timing for the clone wars, the clone masters and berserk clones? If GL really did help Zahn with TT could the person said that please show evidence?

GL did not work with Zahn. Zahn was told; 'not to touch the clone wars as they were Lucas's domain'.

Who is the "flanneled one"? Thanks for laying it out Crown it makes much more sense now. But why did GL have to change what had already been implied? I mean the clone wars were perfect the way they were they just needed more filling out. Instead we have these three new movies which have to be the biggest mistakes in the history of Star Wars. Anyway thanks again Crown, though is AOTC more accurate the ANH SE?

Kartr_Kana wrote:Who is the "flanneled one"?

GL ... he wears flannel shirts ... Stravo coined it first (AFAIK) and I just repeated it.

Oh and your welcome.

Kartr_Kana wrote:though is AOTC more accurate the ANH SE?

No, all six films are on the exact same level of canonicity.

And you're actually wrong about the Clone Wars "before" the prequels. Until Lucas began work on the Prequel Trilogy, there was literally almost nothing about the Clone Wars, because for years that time period and those topics were among issues that Lucasfilm forbade EU materials and authors to discuss.

Crown wrote:

Kartr_Kana wrote:I did spanky and all I got for it was a headache! This new cannon thing is not making much sense, like "we choose what is popular" well what is "popular" changes from time to time does the cannon change with it?

Cannon policy is easy;

Except it is not what you have described ...
Is it really that hard to read over the previous pages?

The most important is that the borders of the canon policy no more match to the borders of resources. (Stamping wole resources (comics or books) as G, C or S rarely works anymore ...)
The other important thing is there are no favorites within the levels. (So, C part of the Thrawn trilogy has the same standing as the C part of Gloves of Darth Vader.)

G: Contains the things that originating from (or 100% supervised by) George Lucas. Within it is the absolute canon, the latest version of the movies. The absolute canon is special because it overrides anything. Also here are (as whole resources, except the overriden parts) the old versions of the movies, the screenplays, interviews, and actually anything GL thinks about Star Wars (even if it is not yet published and actually never will be, only will affect new material). As no movie adaptations are 100% supervised by Lucas, not even the movie novelisations fall (fully) into this level.
C: This is for things created by other authors.
S: (I have asked Chee about this only recently ...) This is a 'container' for [EDIT: otherwise C] items those were published before Lucasfilm (or its subsidiary) made efforts to keep the things consistent, and have not been yet checked whether they fit into the continuity or not. (And will not be checked unless an author want to reference them.)
N: Non- continuity (and noncanon). Bits, overriden by higher level items.
The Infinites and tales are basicly here, except the bits those were referenced on a higher level.

So, the old 'canon' fell apart. Part of the resources (small part of any novelisation and large part of any ICS category book, for example) became C, the rest G, and the quasi- canon now makes up the bulk of level C.
The newer the better still works as the newer is more likely to be referenced in upcoming resources.

vakundok wrote:

Crown wrote:

Kartr_Kana wrote:I did spanky and all I got for it was a headache! This new cannon thing is not making much sense, like "we choose what is popular" well what is "popular" changes from time to time does the cannon change with it?

Cannon policy is easy;

Except it is not what you have described ...
Is it really that hard to read over the previous pages?
<snip>

Aha, so 'except it is not what you have described' means missing out on pointing out 'S' level?

Tell me do you have a reading comprehension problem?

With Vakundok, shouldn't by now that be sort of a given?

Crown wrote:Aha, so 'except it is not what you have described' means missing out on pointing out 'S' level?

Tell me do you have a reading comprehension problem?

Let us see ...

Crown wrote:Movies first (revised editions over originals) so;

TPM, AotC, RotS, ANH-Special Edition, TESB-Special Edition, RotJ-Special Edition are ultimate cannon followed by;

ANH, TESB, RotJ (original)

Then anything based on the movies;

Novelisations, Screenplays, etc.

This is known as 'G-Level' canon or ultimate canon, or simply canon. The 'G' stands for George.

Is it how I defined the G canon? No.

vakundok wrote:So, the old 'canon' fell apart. Part of the resources (small part of any novelisation and large part of any ICS category book, for example) became C, the rest G, ...

Novelisations and anything based on the movies are not fully G canon. It was mentioned that approximately 95% of the text in the ICS books (based on the movies) belongs to level C.

Imagine that no G level resource (as my definition) applies to something. According to you, what was written in the novelisation automatically overrides any new (not movie) novel. This is just not the case, if you follow my definition/interpretation.

I think, you will agree that this is a valid difference between our descriptions and has nothing to do with "missing out on pointing out 'S' level". (Even if I had (or have?) reading comprehension problem.) BTW, 'canon' and 'continuity' appears to be interchangable now.

vakundok wrote:Novelisations and anything based on the movies are not fully G canon. It was mentioned that approximately 95% of the text in the ICS books (based on the movies) belongs to level C.

....

Tasty Taste wrote:In a nutshell, anything created by the author would be C-level. Anything in the the novels created by George Lucas (whether it comes from unpublished early script versions, unpublished author interviews with George, or George's revisions to the novelization manuscript) would be G-level unless contradicted by the films.

Yeah, thanks for that genius. Who brought up the ICS? If you are talking about the novelisations than clearly 80% of them are G level and the rest we have no idea about whether they are author inventions or Lucas revisions, but either way the novelisation fall more into the G level than C level.

vakundok wrote:Imagine that no G level resource (as my definition) applies to something. According to you, what was written in the novelisation automatically overrides any new (not movie) novel. This is just not the case, if you follow my definition/interpretation.

Which you haven't justified. The novelisations are not anywhere near the same level as the rest of the EU as they are at least 80% G level. And since we have no idea how much of the other 20% was author invention or Lucas editing, it is a moot point.

If you are worried about me putting the novelisations in the same line as screenplays and post it notes from Lucas, and in front of them, then fair call, but since the novelisations are clearly not EU, then your statement is bullshit.

vakundok wrote:I think, you will agree that this is a valid difference between our descriptions and has nothing to do with "missing out on pointing out 'S' level". (Even if I had (or have?) reading comprehension problem.)

Yes I agree; there is a valid difference between your interpretation of simple quotes and mine what I fail to see how mine was wrong and yours was 'right'.

vakundok wrote:BTW, 'canon' and 'continuity' appears to be interchangable now.

Well I certainly never said that; canon is the level of 'truth' and continuity is a logical sequence. I can't help that G-level is 'absolute' canon, 'ultimate' canon, and C-level is 'quasi-canon' or simply continuity by the different labels that have been slapped onto the different aspects of SW continuity over the years by others.

Crown wrote:

vakundok wrote:Novelisations and anything based on the movies are not fully G canon. It was mentioned that approximately 95% of the text in the ICS books (based on the movies) belongs to level C.

....

Tasty Taste wrote:In a nutshell, anything created by the author would be C-level. Anything in the the novels created by George Lucas (whether it comes from unpublished early script versions, unpublished author interviews with George, or George's revisions to the novelization manuscript) would be G-level unless contradicted by the films.

Yeah, thanks for that genius. Who brought up the ICS?

I brought up the ICS, because I thought it fell in the category that you described as:

Crown wrote:Then anything based on the movies;

Crown wrote:Then anything If you are talking about the novelisations than clearly 80% of them are G level and the rest we have no idea about whether they are author inventions or Lucas revisions, but either way the novelisation fall more into the G level than C level.

Exactly. More. And because it is only 'more' and not 'fully', you cannot place a "G- level" stamp on it. It is clear that you missed this:

vakundok wrote:The most important is that the borders of the canon policy no more match to the borders of resources.

Crown wrote:

vakundok wrote:Imagine that no G level resource (as my definition) applies to something. According to you, what was written in the novelisation automatically overrides any new (not movie) novel. This is just not the case, if you follow my definition/interpretation.

Which you haven't justified. The novelisations are not anywhere near the same level as the rest of the EU as they are at least 80% G level. And since we have no idea how much of the other 20% was author invention or Lucas editing, it is a moot point.

If I remember well, the ANH novelisation mentions that the S- foils doubled the maneouverability of the X- wings. Do you know whether this (amount) originated from Lucas? No. Have you placed it higher than any new C data? Yes. Not even if 99.9% of a resource is created or approved by Lucas places the rest of that resource into G.

Crown wrote:If you are worried about me putting the novelisations in the same line as screenplays and post it notes from Lucas, and in front of them, then fair call, but since the novelisations are clearly not EU, then your statement is bullshit.

Really? So, what was added by the authors and was not checked by Lucas was either
- addition that added nothing,
- or addition that for some reason was on the very same level as what was created by GL.
And you call my statement bullshit. Actually my problem is that there are very few resources those can be (as a whole) classified as G or C, and you made just that.

Crown wrote:Yes I agree; there is a valid difference between your interpretation of simple quotes and mine what I fail to see how mine was wrong and yours was 'right'.

You know, you missed that the classification is not about books, it is about items and bits of the books.

Crown wrote:

vakundok wrote:BTW, 'canon' and 'continuity' appears to be interchangable now.

Well I certainly never said that; canon is the level of 'truth' and continuity is a logical sequence. ...

Yes, I just added that as a side note. You never said that. It was Chee, when I asked whether canon= G+C+S and continuity=G+C. But he made an error, so I did not quote it. Forget it.

I did some thinking during the weekend.

In a nutshell:
- Everything is canon (or continuity canon), except: what is contradicted by the movies, the Tales and the Infinites (and I think game mechanics too).
- The 'highest' canon is the latest version of the movies (and they are on the same level).
- The newer material is more likely to be correct.

Addition:
- The canon is divided to levels (based on how close it is to GL) for (mainly) internal purposes and that applies only to items from the resources, not to whole resources.
- Since the fans do not know exactly what bits belong to what level, we cannot see a hard border line between the 'core' and the 'expanded' parts of the SW universe anymore.

"The movies are gospel, everything else is gossip."

-George Lucas

What more do you really need?

Or do you rank Chee and others above the Lucas?

Scrubula wrote:"The movies are gospel, everything else is gossip."

-George Lucas

What more do you really need?

Or do you rank Chee and others above the Lucas?

Oh, brother.

Let me explain this nicely, in terms that you will understand.

Think of a nice pyramid of legos. The top of the pyramid, a red block, that's the latest version of the movies-- the Prequel Trilogy and the Special Editions of the OT.

Below that, a few nice yellow and blue blocks, which would be the original editions of the OT. The movie novelizations and scripts are included here.

Underneath that, the Expanded Universe, ranging from the Clone Wars to the novels and so forth.

And there are a few blocks off to the side, which are called 'Infinities', and aren't part of our nice little pyramid except by virtue of being Legos too.

Do you maybe comprehend now? Or shall I have to put it in even more basic terms? Duplo blocks, maybe...

Scrubula wrote:"The movies are gospel, everything else is gossip."

-George Lucas

When and where did he say that?

Scrubula wrote:"The movies are gospel, everything else is gossip."

-George Lucas

What more do you really need?

Or do you rank Chee and others above the Lucas?

Post a link to a reputable source for that quote. I want to know a time, place, and context. I want to see the entire quote of what he said. And most importantly, it must postdate interviews where he says the EU authors fill in the rest of his work and add to "the Saga."

It's hearsay referenced on Darkstar's website, nothing more.

Yeah I figured as much. Fucking bitchy purists can't back up their shit so they stoop to making it up. What a fucking troll.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Yeah I figured as much. Fucking bitchy purists can't back up their shit so they stoop to making it up. What a fucking troll.

The funny thing is, even Darkstar knows its hearsay, and labels it as such, IIRC.

What about the fact that Lucas has said in interviews that Anakin did indeed fulfill the prophecy about the "Chosen One" by destroying the Sith, does this invalidate any reappearance of the Sith in the EU after RotJ?

hypnosifl wrote:What about the fact that Lucas has said in interviews that Anakin did indeed fulfill the prophecy about the "Chosen One" by destroying the Sith, does this invalidate any reappearance of the Sith in the EU after RotJ?

Aside from Palpatine's Clone (who is so insane he might not even be considered Sith, I'm not sure what the criteria are) there are no Sith post-ROTJ. Sedriss, Jerec, Desaan, Kyp, they're all Dark Jedi, not sith.

Pure Sabacc wrote:

hypnosifl wrote:What about the fact that Lucas has said in interviews that Anakin did indeed fulfill the prophecy about the "Chosen One" by destroying the Sith, does this invalidate any reappearance of the Sith in the EU after RotJ?

Aside from Palpatine's Clone (who is so insane he might not even be considered Sith, I'm not sure what the criteria are) there are no Sith post-ROTJ. Sedriss, Jerec, Desaan, Kyp, they're all Dark Jedi, not sith.

Palpatine's clone was the one I was thinking of, I wasn't sure if there were any others. I haven't read the story, but isn't it basically Palpatine's mind/soul in a clone body? If so it seems like he should still be considered a Sith.

Palpatine's clone was the one I was thinking of, I wasn't sure if there were any others. I haven't read the story, but isn't it basically Palpatine's mind/soul in a clone body? If so it seems like he should still be considered a Sith.

Perhaps. I'm still not entirely sure on that though.

this is how I get it
Any material straight from George Lucas is G (with newer versions outweighting the old)

Most of EU is C (with internal hierarcy unchanged)

EU of questionable standing (mostly really old stuff) is S

Stuff that's conterdicted by higher canon or is infinities is N (or non-canon).

Ugh.

Goddamn it. GCSN is not a classification system for bestowing canonical status; it is simply an in-house classification of convienence for Chee's Holocron. The canon is still judged by the "further from the films" tendency described by Chris Cerasi.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Ugh.

Goddamn it. GCSN is not a classification system for bestowing canonical status; it is simply an in-house classification of convienence for Chee's Holocron. The canon is still judged by the "further from the films" tendency described by Chris Cerasi.

So, does this mean that things really haven't changed with regards to classifying the ICS, ITW, and VD books by DK as low level canon rather than high level official under the traditional system?