Circumcision..Child abuse or parental right?

[General Zod]

1.) You'd be surprised at what people will do to keep up with the Traditions of several thousend years, if they believe it, they will find a way to afford it, and buying a Plane ticket is not that expensive these days. As a quick proof of this I will now look at how much it would cost to fly from London to Zurich for a ticket flying out on the 23rd April, the first day of this route, for two Adults, it would cost if I was booking today £111.99 and if I was willing to wait one more day £51.99. The return fare anywhere from between £36.99 to £66.99 assuming the worst on this quick test I would be looking at a total fare of £178.98 for two Adults return.

this still does not justify the act of willfully mutilating an infant.

Hardly a great expense, so the argument that people could not afford to just jump on a plane and go seems a little defunct. As for why do it, tradition, a link to the past, and the road others have traveled before you.

newsflash: not all traditions are ethical. just because something is a tradition does not mean it should be allowed to continue being practiced. look up appeal to tradition fallacy.

Yes it's the Doctor that performs the act, but what does this matter, erm are you expecting a Doctor that performed an illegal act to write a nice little report on it, before his staff and submit it to the records! Of course not it would be done at home, or at a place of worship, by a doctor sympathetic to the religion or a Rabbi, so you'd still be reduced to seeking a third party to report the issue, or did that not occur to you?

no ethical physician would be willing to risk their license for the sake of keeping a questionable religious practice active.

Oh yes remove the Doctors Medical licence... erm you seem to be rather missing a key point... YOU have to prove the Doctor/Family guilty first, that is you either have to catch them in the act, or find concrete evidence. Any investigation is going to run into hurdles so overwhelming that it renders the point of an investigation moot, and a waste of resources, the conviction rate would be pitiful.

the threat of the license being removed would be reason enough for most not to do this. the very reason most doctors do not perform unethical or illegal acts is because they can have their license removed. there have been cases of doctors having it removed for unethical and/or illegal practice in the past.

unless you can think of any valid reason to continue circumcision beyond an appeal to tradition your argument holds very little weight.

[Keevan_Colton]

Skelron you really are a twat arent you?

First off, transcontinental travel costs are nowhere near as cosy as the internal costs of travel in europe. But lets not head down the side track there....

Age does not lend any validity to a practice of mutilation. If you cut of a kids ear lobes and said your god said it was ok, social services would have that kid off you in a flash.....the only difference here is that this is "tradition", things that exist as traditions do so because they have NO other justification.

People who go out of the country to do it can be treated in a similar fashion to those who do the same for FGM and forced marraiges.

Finally, your assanine bullshit about evidence and conviction rates could as easily be applied to things like rape.....does that mean rape should be legal as it would just be too much hassle to do anything about it?

In short your acting like the bastard child of a turnip and a retarded hedgehog.

[Skelron]

Rye, do you have any clue what so ever? Firstly the tradition of Circumsicion amongest the Jewish faith likely grew from a sensible need at the time, much as the point about the proper way to cook food grew. It is not weird, it was a tradition that grew from a legitimate need, and became a part of the heritage...

Now while it may seem that I am appealing to Tradition to prove acceptance of the Circumsicion which is a Fallacy I am not. I am providing it to show that any attempt to Ban it, would be rendered pointless, and would be ignored, because as much as you may not want to admit it, people will do a lot to follow their religion and their heritage... They will make sacrifaces, and I personally see it as not being worth the expense to start investigating every Jewish family that has a new born Boy in the country!

I love the wonderful condemnation of all those Jewish parents out there Rye, who follow their religion, and who love their children as much as anyone else here, I also love the idea you present that somehow because the law forbids something it will not happen... Naive and living in another world, It does not matter what laws you pass it matters what laws you can enforce, and any law on Circumsision would be impossible to enforce, on all but the poorest sections of society.

[General Zod]

Rye, do you have any clue what so ever? Firstly the tradition of Circumsicion amongest the Jewish faith likely grew from a sensible need at the time, much as the point about the proper way to cook food grew. It is not weird, it was a tradition that grew from a legitimate need, and became a part of the heritage...

what need would that be exactly? the only health risk for someone whose uncircumcised is if they're lazy fucks that don't take the time to wipe off their cock.

Now while it may seem that I am appealing to Tradition to prove acceptance of the Circumsicion which is a Fallacy I am not. I am providing it to show that any attempt to Ban it, would be rendered pointless, and would be ignored, because as much as you may not want to admit it, people will do a lot to follow their religion and their heritage... They will make sacrifaces, and I personally see it as not being worth the expense to start investigating every Jewish family that has a new born Boy in the country!

so far your only argument for allowing circumcision to continue is because it's a tradition.

I love the wonderful condemnation of all those Jewish parents out there Rye, who follow their religion, and who love their children as much as anyone else here, I also love the idea you present that somehow because the law forbids something it will not happen... Naive and living in another world, It does not matter what laws you pass it matters what laws you can enforce, and any law on Circumsision would be impossible to enforce, on all but the poorest sections of society.

so your only argument for keeping circumcision around so far is because it supposedly would be impossible to enforce and it's a tradition. real brilliant argument there.

[Keevan_Colton]

Rye, do you have any clue what so ever? Firstly the tradition of Circumsicion amongest the Jewish faith likely grew from a sensible need at the time, much as the point about the proper way to cook food grew. It is not weird, it was a tradition that grew from a legitimate need, and became a part of the heritage...

They had these great death sports in ancient rome....and I'm sure they grew to fill a sensible need....lets have people hack one another to death for entertainment.....

Oh wait, theres no need NOW for it and it causes HARM.

Now while it may seem that I am appealing to Tradition to prove acceptance of the Circumsicion which is a Fallacy I am not. I am providing it to show that any attempt to Ban it, would be rendered pointless, and would be ignored, because as much as you may not want to admit it, people will do a lot to follow their religion and their heritage... They will make sacrifaces, and I personally see it as not being worth the expense to start investigating every Jewish family that has a new born Boy in the country!

So you'd rather they all be mutilated instead because their parents favourite sky pixie says so and thus reduce their potential for sexual gratification....yay....

I love the wonderful condemnation of all those Jewish parents out there Rye, who follow their religion, and who love their children as much as anyone else here, I also love the idea you present that somehow because the law forbids something it will not happen... Naive and living in another world, It does not matter what laws you pass it matters what laws you can enforce, and any law on Circumsision would be impossible to enforce, on all but the poorest sections of society.

Look you dippy shit, those that abuse their children often say its done out of love...but here's a fucking clue if you REALLY love your children more that you love your sky pixie then you wouldnt lop bits off them to appease him. It's stupid, it's barbaric and did I mention it's FUCKING STUPID?

Here's a poser for you, what about those that tie their children up, starve and beat them as part of an exorcism, is that ok?

[Skelron]

Skelron you really are a twat arent you?

First off, transcontinental travel costs are nowhere near as cosy as the internal costs of travel in europe. But lets not head down the side track there....

Indeed lets not shall we after all, my argument was that it was simply to go abroad, which you may be surprised to learn is exactly what London to Prague is, going abroad. So erm fail to see what your point here was actually intended to be?

Age does not lend any validity to a practice of mutilation. If you cut of a kids ear lobes and said your god said it was ok, social services would have that kid off you in a flash.....the only difference here is that this is "tradition", things that exist as traditions do so because they have NO other justification.

People who go out of the country to do it can be treated in a similar fashion to those who do the same for FGM and forced marraiges.

Finally, your assanine bullshit about evidence and conviction rates could as easily be applied to things like rape.....does that mean rape should be legal as it would just be too much hassle to do anything about it?

Not really you see the point here is that the Parent would be going abroad to a nation where the act is LEGAL, thereby providing them a get out based on simply not having broken any laws while abroad. The difficulty I am addressing is that you have to prove they broke a Law, you also have to this when it is easy to provide an alibi, and where the crime will not be reported at the time of it occuring but much later on. As to forced Marriages and the way they are treated I would assume that a part of that factor is related to the effect that a Contract is created upon Marriage making it something the state can over turn when the person returns to the nation. ((I am Assuming FGM is Foreign gay Marriages?)) Legally a Circumsision is not a Contract, and so legally the state cannot intervene in the matter as it falls strictly under a foregn states laws.

Darth Zod makes the point that no ethical Physcian would be willing to risk his licence... What about a devout Jew? Would not they for the sake of their religion be willing to take the risk?

Oh I think they would surprise! Now the simple thing is, I will appeal to tradition because this is a debate that Actually attacks a peoples traditions and religious beliefs. I wonder do the people arguing for it's banning also argue that Parents should be arrested for smacking their Children for being naughty?

[Keevan_Colton]

And with every post you become dumber you asshole.

Right, first off FGM has been covered in this thread already, so if you'd actually read it you'd know its "Female Genital Mutilation" clearly reading is beyond your skills much like thinking.

Laws can be crafted to make it illegal to go abroad for the express purpose of mutilating your child, much as they are seeking in realtion to FGM which is also a fucking stupid tradition.....

[General Zod]

Darth Zod makes the point that no ethical Physcian would be willing to risk his licence... What about a devout Jew? Would not they for the sake of their religion be willing to take the risk?

a physician should do the ethical thing, which would be abide by the laws of practice in his country. doing otherwise would be unethical. if he's willing to break the laws for the sake of upholding an idiotic tradition then his license deserves to be removed.

Oh I think they would surprise! Now the simple thing is, I will appeal to tradition because this is a debate that Actually attacks a peoples traditions and religious beliefs. I wonder do the people arguing for it's banning also argue that Parents should be arrested for smacking their Children for being naughty?

so instead of trying to think of any valid reason to keep the tradition you're using the tradition itself as justification. congratulations, you're an idiot.

[Keevan_Colton]

It's great isnt it Zod?

"People do it, and it'd be hard to catch them doing it, so they should be allowed to do it."

So, Skelron, do you think those who sexually assult children should be allowed to get on with it, or just nip out into international waters and do it?
After all, they are hard to catch, unlikely to report themselves and there's no "contract" involved.

It's the same with those that beat or abuse children...it's hard to catch them.

You can offer no justification for your position beyond "it's not worth the hassle".

[Skelron]

[So you'd rather they all be mutilated instead because their parents favourite sky pixie says so and thus reduce their potential for sexual gratification....yay....

Oh yes favourite sky Pixie, yes the mature and balanced response I have come to expect, of course they MUST be Wrong because I don't believe in god myself. ERGO I am right they are wrong and I can dismiss it as a Sky Pixie... Get stuffed you dum shit, if you cannot even aknowledge that it is a real and vital belief to many people then you have no place commentating on people. If you will dismiss their beliefs as Sky Pixie then you have No right to even attempt to claim authority on the matter.

Your Inbuilt bias precludes you from seeing the situation through any other eyes than your own self-rightous stuck up your own ass view. At the very least you can respect the option of a person to believe in god, at the very least you can show that much respect and still debate this issue...

Look you dippy shit, those that abuse their children often say its done out of love...but here's a fucking clue if you REALLY love your children more that you love your sky pixie then you wouldnt lop bits off them to appease him. It's stupid, it's barbaric and did I mention it's FUCKING STUPID?

Here's a poser for you, what about those that tie their children up, starve and beat them as part of an exorcism, is that ok?

Oh so Circumsicion=Starving and abusing ones Children in the overall scheme of evils. Well done, I guess their are far more abused children out there than I ever thought, I guess I'll get in touch with my Sister, the Social worker. She's looking in the wrong places for those beaten abused children she should be taking all the male children born to a Jewish family in hull into care, because they are so abused! I am sure once I tell her this news she will be racing into work the next day ready to inform her department of the news, so they can all get in on the act!

Get lost you Arrogent little prick, thats a crap line of reasoning, it does not follow, and is something I will not respond to beyond this simply because it is not worth the effort.

[Skelron]

And with every post you become dumber you asshole.

Right, first off FGM has been covered in this thread already, so if you'd actually read it you'd know its "Female Genital Mutilation" clearly reading is beyond your skills much like thinking.

Laws can be crafted to make it illegal to go abroad for the express purpose of mutilating your child, much as they are seeking in realtion to FGM which is also a fucking stupid tradition.....

I apologise for making a mistake, in all honesty I mistook the context. You went from Forced Marriage to FGM in the same sentence.

[Keevan_Colton]

Oh yes favourite sky Pixie, yes the mature and balanced response I have come to expect, of course they MUST be Wrong because I don't believe in god myself. ERGO I am right they are wrong and I can dismiss it as a Sky Pixie... Get stuffed you dum shit, if you cannot even aknowledge that it is a real and vital belief to many people then you have no place commentating on people. If you will dismiss their beliefs as Sky Pixie then you have No right to even attempt to claim authority on the matter.

No you sick little fuck, its quite simple, REAL HARM trumps IMAGINERY BEING in this world.

Your Inbuilt bias precludes you from seeing the situation through any other eyes than your own self-rightous stuck up your own ass view. At the very least you can respect the option of a person to believe in god, at the very least you can show that much respect and still debate this issue...

Yes, respect the people cutting the bits off dicks of children....of course...because such a practice is worthy of respect

Oh so Circumsicion=Starving and abusing ones Children in the overall scheme of evils. Well done, I guess their are far more abused children out there than I ever thought, I guess I'll get in touch with my Sister, the Social worker. She's looking in the wrong places for those beaten abused children she should be taking all the male children born to a Jewish family in hull into care, because they are so abused! I am sure once I tell her this news she will be racing into work the next day ready to inform her department of the news, so they can all get in on the act!

Get lost you Arrogent little prick, thats a crap line of reasoning, it does not follow, and is something I will not respond to beyond this simply because it is not worth the effort.

You're the one claiming it isnt worth the hassle you fucking sick little bastard.

[Keevan_Colton]

I apologise for making a mistake, in all honesty I mistook the context. You went from Forced Marriage to FGM in the same sentence.

Both are "traditions", that's the connection.....just the same way as circumcision is.

[Skelron]

It's great isnt it Zod?

"People do it, and it'd be hard to catch them doing it, so they should be allowed to do it."

So, Skelron, do you think those who sexually assult children should be allowed to get on with it, or just nip out into international waters and do it?
After all, they are hard to catch, unlikely to report themselves and there's no "contract" involved.

It's the same with those that beat or abuse children...it's hard to catch them.

You can offer no justification for your position beyond "it's not worth the hassle".

And how many laws have ended because they where not worth the hassle.

Hmm lets look at the history shall we Probation. Most people ignored it, so it was repealled! Current Drug laws in the UK are getting softer and softer because many drugs are being taken no matter what the law says... so they are being dropped...

Smoking could be banned... but it wouldn't be worth the hassle so... guess what it isn't.

The government could stop the Booze and fags run, instead in order to catch the big time movers they upped the limit per person... because the small time guy who had bought a few packs of Fags for his mates... wasn't worth the Hassle!

AGAIN you seem to miss the point of if they go abroad the arn't breaking a law, EVEN in international waters Child molestering is an offence jack ass. so all that is left is your body Multilation issue.

So we will now have a new stop and search all babies coming through customns will be stripped and checked for Circumsision?

[Keevan_Colton]

No you stupid dick, PROHIBITION DID NOT WORK BECAUSE IT WAS INFRINGING ON THE RIGHTS OF RESPONSABLE ADULTS TO DO AS THEY WISH WITH THEIR OWN BODY.

It's the same with the drugs issue.

Circumcision is a matter of letting people ABUSE the body of a MINOR in their care!

Cant you see what's fucking wrong with that and why things should be done to stop it?

[Skelron]

No you sick little fuck, its quite simple, REAL HARM trumps IMAGINERY BEING in this world.

Prove it to be an imaginary being or shut the FUCK up you dum shit!

Yes, respect the people cutting the bits off dicks of children....of course...because such a practice is worthy of respect

Love the exgerration, Cutting the dicks off... well cutting the foreskin off, not the dicks, may seem a small point but Context! Anyway, no respect the beliefs of people, you don't have to respect the religion, you don't have to respect the practice... but I would expect you to respect the right of people to believe in a God, after all not all the people that believe in that God believe in Circumsicion... or did that little fact escape the notice of your little hate filled brain!

You're the one claiming it isnt worth the hassle you fucking sick little bastard.

And your the one who seems to think that Circumsision compares to the Sexual and Physical abuse that real abused children go through on a daily basis, you live in your own little dream world wjhere the worst thing in the world that can happen to you is centered around your tiny little prick. Get it through your thick skull you stupid little baby, Male Circumsision is not anywhere near equal to Sexual or physical abuse. It does not even belong in the same discussion, if the worst thing that could happen to you is to be circumsised you are a lucky man, my Mother, and my Sister have both seen true Abuse in the faces of the Children they see everyday, the only sick fuck is you for belitting that suffering with your self rightous talk. My moher as teacher at a shool in a poor area, where she has had refugees from Yugoslavia in her classes, and my sister as a Child Social Worker

Your a selfish little prick.

[Keevan_Colton]

Prove it to be an imaginary being or shut the FUCK up you dum shit!

Yeah you are a fucking retard.
You cannot prove the non-existance and so far no one has proven the existance of this sick psycho that demands the ritual scariffication of small children....so that makes the assertion of his no existance one YOU have to refute. Perhaps he'll post here for you?

Yes, respect the people cutting the bits off dicks of children....of course...because such a practice is worthy of respect

Love the exgerration, Cutting the dicks off... well cutting the foreskin off, not the dicks, may seem a small point but Context! Anyway, no respect the beliefs of people, you don't have to respect the religion, you don't have to respect the practice... but I would expect you to respect the right of people to believe in a God, after all not all the people that believe in that God believe in Circumsicion... or did that little fact escape the notice of your little hate filled brain!

So, you believe mutilating children in the name of a sky pixie is okay....and objecting to it is disrespectful.

For fucks sake, what happened to education down south...you've got the reading comprehension and reasoning skills of goats cheese.

And your the one who seems to think that Circumsision compares to the Sexual and Physical abuse that real abused children go through on a daily basis, you live in your own little dream world wjhere the worst thing in the world that can happen to you is centered around your tiny little prick. Get it through your thick skull you stupid little baby, Male Circumsision is not anywhere near equal to Sexual or physical abuse. It does not even belong in the same discussion, if the worst thing that could happen to you is to be circumsised you are a lucky man, my Mother, and my Sister have both seen true Abuse in the faces of the Children they see everyday, the only sick fuck is you for belitting that suffering with your self rightous talk. My moher as teacher at a shool in a poor area, where she has had refugees from Yugoslavia in her classes, and my sister as a Child Social Worker

Your a selfish little prick.

No you are for defending peoples rights to mutilate children because it isnt quite as bad as buggering them. You are the one with the serious moral problem here not I. You seem to think that so long as worse evils exist, lesser ones should be ignored....there's muder in the world so people who are just wounded should shut up and take it eh?

Fuck you, you sniveling little piece of pond scum.

[General Zod]

Prove it to be an imaginary being or shut the FUCK up you dum shit!

burden of proof fallacy cumstain. look it up.

Love the exgerration, Cutting the dicks off... well cutting the foreskin off, not the dicks, may seem a small point but Context! Anyway, no respect the beliefs of people, you don't have to respect the religion, you don't have to respect the practice... but I would expect you to respect the right of people to believe in a God, after all not all the people that believe in that God believe in Circumsicion... or did that little fact escape the notice of your little hate filled brain!

the infant involved doesn't exactly have a choice as to whether or not they can have it done to them now can they?

And your the one who seems to think that Circumsision compares to the Sexual and Physical abuse that real abused children go through on a daily basis, you live in your own little dream world wjhere the worst thing in the world that can happen to you is centered around your tiny little prick. Get it through your thick skull you stupid little baby, Male Circumsision is not anywhere near equal to Sexual or physical abuse. It does not even belong in the same discussion, if the worst thing that could happen to you is to be circumsised you are a lucky man, my Mother, and my Sister have both seen true Abuse in the faces of the Children they see everyday, the only sick fuck is you for belitting that suffering with your self rightous talk. My moher as teacher at a shool in a poor area, where she has had refugees from Yugoslavia in her classes, and my sister as a Child Social Worker

exactly how does this make circumcision an ethical practice, twat? it's mutilating someone that can't even give their own consent. you don't see that as unethical?

[Rye]

Rye, do you have any clue what so ever? Firstly the tradition of Circumsicion amongest the Jewish faith likely grew from a sensible need at the time, much as the point about the proper way to cook food grew. It is not weird, it was a tradition that grew from a legitimate need, and became a part of the heritage...

Listen cocktard, mutilating children is wrong, the fact it's old and may have had some use for some ancient jews doesn't make it not abuse.

Now while it may seem that I am appealing to Tradition to prove acceptance of the Circumsicion which is a Fallacy I am not. I am providing it to show that any attempt to Ban it, would be rendered pointless, and would be ignored, because as much as you may not want to admit it, people will do a lot to follow their religion and their heritage... They will make sacrifaces, and I personally see it as not being worth the expense to start investigating every Jewish family that has a new born Boy in the country!

Great for them, but it should still be illegal and the parents should be prosecutable for making their children undergo unnecessary surgery.

I love the wonderful condemnation of all those Jewish parents out there Rye

If they abuse their children, even in the name of religion (heh, like that's a good excuse) they are in the wrong, it's that simple. They are violating another human being because of an appeal to tradition. What would judaism lose by not circumcising their children? Fuck all, that's what, and by continuing with this outdated unnecessary and painful scarring ritual they are being immoral.

who follow their religion, and who love their children as much as anyone else here, I also love the idea you present that somehow because the law forbids something it will not happen...

Yes, i so said that didn't I? Dumbass.

It does not matter what laws you pass it matters what laws you can enforce, and any law on Circumsision would be impossible to enforce, on all but the poorest sections of society.

Children are recorded and go to frequent medical checkups in our country, early in life, unauthorised circumcision would be noticable at these screenings, and would be subject to the same legal processes as your average child abuse claim.

Prove it to be an imaginary being or shut the FUCK up you dum shit!

Read this and then this. Referring to gods as imaginary is quite accurate.

[Sir Sirius]

And how many laws have ended because they where not worth the hassle.

Hmm lets look at the history shall we Probation. Most people ignored it, so it was repealled! Current Drug laws in the UK are getting softer and softer because many drugs are being taken no matter what the law says... so they are being dropped...

Smoking could be banned... but it wouldn't be worth the hassle so... guess what it isn't.

The government could stop the Booze and fags run, instead in order to catch the big time movers they upped the limit per person... because the small time guy who had bought a few packs of Fags for his mates... wasn't worth the Hassle!

Do you know what all those laws have in common? They all illigalize activities that legal adults participate in willingly, most of the actual harm from acts is directed at a willing participant. This is no the case with infants being circumcized.

I have no problem with an adult having himself mutilated for religious reason, but allowing parents to inflict verifiable onjective harm on to their children because of their unverifiable and purely subjective religious beliefs is quite another matter. Only an idiot would place obidiance of an archaic tradition over the well being of his or her child.

AGAIN you seem to miss the point of if they go abroad the arn't breaking a law, EVEN in international waters Child molestering is an offence jack ass. so all that is left is your body Multilation issue.

Then why not make getting your kids circumcized abroad a crime as well? Pedophiliac sex tourism abroad has already been illigalized in some countries, a pedophile can be charged in his own country for a statuatory rape committed abroad.

As for your "circumstition shouldn't be illigalized because it will be difficult to enforce the law" arqument. Illigalizing circumsition would naturaly not prevent it totaly, but I'm willing to bet that it would reduce the number of circumsitions done annualy quite dramatically and save quite a few foreskins in the process. Not many doctors would be willing to risk getting their license revoked for performing a circumsition and even most parents would think twice before they risk losing custody of their child and/or jail time. A law doesn't have to be 100% effective for it to be worthwhile and while ideally all violators would be caught, the deterrance factor will work with a far lower percentage. Not to mention that the mere hazzle of getting an illigal circumsition would deter quite a few parents.

[Justforfun000]

There were so many idiotic things I read from Skelron, I don't even know where to start!!

First of all, I would find having a party to celebrate slicing off an infant's incredibly sensitive skin in a very painful, unaneasthized manner to be "weirdo" enough. Do you know what the old tradition was before mohels stopped doing it (not too long ago either)? They sucked the blood out of the wound after they cut it off. Can you imagine? That's absolutely disgusting.

Like the other people have been trying to say to you, it doesn't make any difference what you believe. You have the right to your beliefs, but if part of acting on those beliefs does harm to another human being, in a physically irreversible way especially, then it should be *drumroll* ILLEGAL. There are many, many traditions from the Judaism religion that are QUITE illegal, and you don't see anybody trying to enforce those bits.

Quite simply, there should be no such thing as religious exemption. The very idea is absurd. Basically you're allowing special concessions to people based on nothing more than faith related issues, and this is completely opposite to concessions being made for logical, purposeful reasons.

There is bound to be a reckoning with religion soon because they aren't content with just believing in a God. Religions always entail views on what you should and should not do as a "moral" person, and they are exepcted to be followed without any question. This is stupidity, and is inexcusable as a basis for perpetuating traditions such as circumcision.

Another point Skelron...What would you do if you circumcised your child and later on they sued you and the doctor for abusing you. would you think he has no right to do so because you "believed" it was right to mutilate him? A lot of this is starting to happen now, because many men are VERY pissed off that this was done to them. To the ones who are indifferent, good for them. They are lucky it doesn't bother them, but they should still decry it as an abuse that was performed on them against their will.

[Justforfun000]

Oh, and I forgot to mention, about the excuse that they'll just go somewhere else where it's legal.....

How do you think you get the whole practice illegal? You have to start somewhere. Once enough countries make it illegal, then the United Nations also typically considers it a human rights violation and condemns countries for these reasons, and therefore a lot of pressure is put on them to change this.

Of course as usual, it's a battle against religion which is always the problem as self proclaimed "martyrs" cry out that Satan is in charge of this world and we can't do right by our children anymore.

Wake up everyone. This world is moving towards a major clash with religion. Anyone with half a brain can see that we are far too informed these days to justify unsubstantiated claims in religious texts that go contrary to what we can see is reality, and ethical for that matter.

[Sporkzen]

Hell i'm religious but know what? If God made you with the Mr. Happy Hat, why in the flying fuck would he want you to remove it? If you werent supposed to have it.. uhm.. why would you have it? I'm all for religious freedom and such.. but like with all freedoms there are limits. Harming the innocent in a way they have no say in and that has lifelong effects is one of those things that goes past the limits of religious freedom. People gotta use their heads. Just cause its a tradition or is in a book does not make it right. Remember these books and traditions have passed through human hands, and those very hands have a very nasty habit of distorting things.

[Skelron]

Prove it to be an imaginary being or shut the FUCK up you dum shit!

burden of proof fallacy cumstain. look it up.

Ah shut up really I don't give a flying fuck if a person believes in God or not, thinks religion is the worst thing ever to happen and is bigoted against religion in that manner or or is a bigoted Southern wanker misusing religion.

the infant involved doesn't exactly have a choice as to whether or not they can have it done to them now can they?

Had exactly what to do with the point you where addressing, asking for people to respect the rights of a person to have a religion in general you answered with the above. Really the bigotry and hatred from some of the Atheissits on this board is staggering! Some of the most bigoted judegmental shits seem to race to the Science and Logic board and shout that Religion is EVIL... and insult anyone whoi has even a religious view at all. Let me make it clear I am a Liberal Catholic from the United Kingdom, never been down south, believe in Evolution and the Big Bang and am happy with the use of any and all pre-conception forms of contraception, but because I said that I would respect the right of a person to believe in God, I came from Down South in America....

And your the one who seems to think that Circumsision compares to the Sexual and Physical abuse that real abused children go through on a daily basis, you live in your own little dream world wjhere the worst thing in the world that can happen to you is centered around your tiny little prick. Get it through your thick skull you stupid little baby, Male Circumsision is not anywhere near equal to Sexual or physical abuse. It does not even belong in the same discussion, if the worst thing that could happen to you is to be circumsised you are a lucky man, my Mother, and my Sister have both seen true Abuse in the faces of the Children they see everyday, the only sick fuck is you for belitting that suffering with your self rightous talk. My moher as teacher at a shool in a poor area, where she has had refugees from Yugoslavia in her classes, and my sister as a Child Social Worker

exactly how does this make circumcision an ethical practice, twat? it's mutilating someone that can't even give their own consent. you don't see that as unethical?

Actually I was simply in this point doing something that may have gone over your head... Let me explain slowly, I was addressing the VERY Disgusting and hate filled crap that would compare Circumsicion to Sexual and Physical Abuse, I was not at this point addressing the rightness or wrongness of Circumsision but the Hate filled Shit that came from one little childs mouth, because a Mummy might have had a bit of a childs dick removed and he felt it would be as violating as a child who has been raped by his family members for years...

Basically I was addressing the incrediably disgusting piece of writing that would compare an entire religious group to Child Molestors... based on the issue of them doing Male Circumsision...

amaazing how obviously I am the one talking Shit while because he supports your view point you don't address that point... which is quite obviously a big steaming pile of Dog Shit...

Let us get a room full of Children the same age 50 of them will have been circumcised as Babys, the other 50 of the same age, have been sexually abused since childhood, which group would you honestly say is in need of Social Services?

[Keevan_Colton]

Skelron you're a fucking retard, the only thing that makes it not abuse is the fact its a tradition. That's no fucking defense and you should know it, so fuck up.