Enterprise 301 "The Xindi" *Spoilers*

[TheDarkling]

IIRC, you see some Tellarites at the end of ST IV.

Thanks I will check that out later, did they still look the same cheesy way as they did in TOS?

[Frank Hipper]

IIRC, you see some Tellarites at the end of ST IV.

Thanks I will check that out later, did they still look the same cheesy way as they did in TOS?

Remember, this is if I'm recalling correctly!
But yeah, piggy snouts and the whole nine yards. Slight improvements, but definetly TOS updates only.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

No, I don't see an inconsistency -- I see a large hole where information should be -- I see an effect with no apparent cause, and I am calling for a cause to be discovered -- or, since we're dealing with a fictional universe, to be provided.

So what do you think happened to the Gorn then?
Or the Sheliak we only encounter them once and then hear of them again?
Or the Nyberrite alliance who only got one mention?

None of these foreign governments had the political connections sufficient to end up with one of their nationals stationed on a Starfleet vessel. See the difference yet?

And we got more than just "one mention" of Tellarites in TOS and in TNG -- the Tellarites were seen on-screen in TOS, seen on-screen again in one of the TOS-era films (on Earth, I forget whether it was TMP, TVH or TUC) and mentioned in TNG. The Denobulans exist canonically in Enterprise and nowhere else is their presence felt in any form.

Interesting, which film was it because I remember the big hooplah about the Tellarites having there second ever apperence on Enterprise.[/quote]

Second-ever television appearance? Possibly. But if your source is claiming it's the second time ever they've appeared on screeen, stay tuned for next week's episode, when we will see what Romulans look like for the very first time!

Last, I'll offer you the following challenge -- since it's your claim that we may have missed a TOS-era forward reference to Denobulans, I challenge you to discover and provide such a reference.

Easy, that time in the bar or that time when Data mentioned them over poker or the Denobulan ensign who was assigned to DS9 for a while, oh you don't recall seeing that? Well I guess it must be because we don't watch them every minute of the day in fact we watch them for less than 24 minutes a week, in which usually an emergency is going on.

Can you provide some episode names for these references, or are you being facetious?

There is no contradiction you just realise they are a race created for Enterprise and thus can't have been mentioned which posses a problem, it however doesn't unless you think the 5 or 10 Fed races we have seen is all there are.

That's foolish -- I've already explained why Denobulans never getting mentioned poses a problem. Yes, they could be one of 150 species active in the Federation in the 24th century. The problem is that they are one of approximately six prominent AQ powers in the 22nd century. Considering the rate at which the other five powers (Terran, Vulcan, Andorian, Klingon & Romulan) gained power, and the time at which they began to form these alliances and acquire new territory, the Denobulans should be at least as prominent in the 24th century as the Tellarites or the Andorians.

Unless, of course, something happens that changes their current level of interaction with other spacefaring civilizations -- that is all I'm suggesting. Political revolution? Economic disaster? Denobulans are polygamous, did they all get divorced and spend 200 years tied up in court hearings and alimony payments? What happened?

[TheDarkling]

None of these foreign governments had the political connections sufficient to end up with one of their nationals stationed on a Starfleet vessel. See the difference yet?

Say it with me now..... two hundred years ago.

not to mention China crops up a lot in present day talk and Iraq and so on yet these places don't have the connections to get a guy on a US ship, you are just adding irrelevancies now and the you still haven't justified the Tellerites only showing up twice (although I can't spot a Tellerite in the crowd in ST IV) when they are Federation members.
What about the Deltans why aren't they mentioned again?
Why don't we see any of the other Federation member races?

Can you provide some episode names for these references, or are you being facetious?

Considering the Denobulans hadn't been created yet it would be a bit difficult to mention them wouldn't it? I was simply pointing out how odd I find your assertion that there is a problem here.

That's foolish -- I've already explained why Denobulans never getting mentioned poses a problem. Yes, they could be one of 150 species active in the Federation in the 24th century. The problem is that they are one of approximately six prominent AQ powers in the 22nd century. Considering the rate at which the other five powers (Terran, Vulcan, Andorian, Klingon & Romulan) gained power, and the time at which they began to form these alliances and acquire new territory, the Denobulans should be at least as prominent in the 24th century as the Tellarites or the Andorians.

Ah but the Tellerite aren't prominent in fact they aren't mentioned once in the 24th century, so it seems you have another mystery on your hands.

As for them being a major power, prove it. just because they have a few doctors visiting Earth doesn't mean they are a big mover and shaker, you are basing your analysis of the Denobulans status in the galaxy on one... well not even that you are basing it on nothing, we don't know anything about how many races are involved in the exchange program, we don't know if Phlox is a rare example, we don't know if his planet is largely a neutral one (after apparent war crimes committed in their past) and so on, we have no way to judge the Denobulans prominence.

Unless, of course, something happens that changes their current level of interaction with other spacefaring civilizations -- that is all I'm suggesting. Political revolution? Economic disaster? Denobulans are polygamous, did they all get divorced and spend 200 years tied up in court hearings and alimony payments? What happened?

What is their current level of integration?
Why should they automatically remain (assuming they were 200 years ago) prominent in the larger community, perhaps they are more willing to take a back seat than the arrogant Vulcans and aggressive Andorians.

I see nothing proving your assertion of high profile Denobulans in the 22nd century and I also see no reason to assume they aren't prominent Fed members (the Tellerites are and they don't get a mention) and finally I see no reason even if you prove the previous two to assume they still must be at the forefront (assuming no disaster) a lot can change politically in 200 years and perhaps the Denobulans decided to take a passive role in galactic politics once they were assured of security due to the Federation.

If you can address the three points above you may be on to something but for what I have seen there is nothing to support your position.

[Ender]

WRT the Breen attack and 9/11-Pearl Harbor attacks, I'd like to point out that PH was only about 60 years prior, ajnd alot fresher in peoples minds. How many people compared 9/11 with the sinking of the Maine? The time differences make that a better comparison.

[Admiral_K]

This discussion is REDICULOUS.

I can't believe some of you are actually pointing to this as if it were a big thing. There are "thousands" of planets in the Federation, with over 150 of them considered to be major systems.

The reason we don't hear about Denobulans in other trek series is because IT SIMPLY NEVER CAME UP.

You are making the ASSUMPTION that they are somehow a "key member" of founding the Federation - with no evidence whatsoever. They may not have even JOINED the federation, or joined it later.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

This discussion is REDICULOUS.

I can't believe some of you are actually pointing to this as if it were a big thing. There are "thousands" of planets in the Federation, with over 150 of them considered to be major systems.

It's my understanding that the size of the Federation as of FC is "over 150" member governments. One may assume that "over 150" sets the number at under 160. This simply does not equate to "thousands." And this is after 200 years of exploration and first contacts.

The reason we don't hear about Denobulans in other trek series is because IT SIMPLY NEVER CAME UP.

And yet dozens of other species we have never seen on screen do. Obviously, the Denobulans didn't contribute much in the intervening two centuries.

You are making the ASSUMPTION that they are somehow a "key member" of founding the Federation - with no evidence whatsoever. They may not have even JOINED the federation, or joined it later.

No, I'm making no such assumption whatsoever. I am, however, making the observation that they are in a prime political position to take that step, and since we can see from "later" Trek eras that they clearly have not taken that step, I would like an explanation for why that step was not taken. This is not terribly complicated.

[Peregrin Toker]

The reason we don't hear about Denobulans in other trek series is because IT SIMPLY NEVER CAME UP.

And yet dozens of other species we have never seen on screen do. Obviously, the Denobulans didn't contribute much in the intervening two centuries.

Hmm... maybe the Denobulans pulled a Kamino and isolated themselves from the rest of the galaxy and out of sheer paranoia ordered the Federation to delete all records of their homeworld??

[Isolder74]

That might work for the Doctor's Race but how do you explain the lack of mention of the Xindi? Unless they were wiped out and the Federation has erased the fact out of guilt or for some other strange reason.

[Admiral_K]

It's my understanding that the size of the Federation as of FC is "over 150" member governments. One may assume that "over 150" sets the number at under 160. This simply does not equate to "thousands." And this is after 200 years of exploration and first contacts.

Yes I believe that is what I said more or less when I said 150 major systems. The "thousands" of planets remark was based on a quote from ST:FC.

The reason we don't hear about Denobulans in other trek series is because IT SIMPLY NEVER CAME UP.

And yet dozens of other species we have never seen on screen do. Obviously, the Denobulans didn't contribute much in the intervening two centuries.

Ok we've got 150 members in the federation. So name 25 of them. Any 25. If you can do that, you'd deserve a prize. If you could name even 50 that have been mentioned or seen on screen you'd have to be considered a trek guru. I anxiously await your list.

No, I'm making no such assumption whatsoever. I am, however, making the observation that they are in a prime political position to take that step, and since we can see from "later" Trek eras that they clearly have not taken that step, I would like an explanation for why that step was not taken. This is not terribly complicated.

Absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. I can think of few better applications of that than here. Just because they don't come up in other trek series doesn't mean they aren't important or that they aren't federation members or somehow no longer exist.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

The reason we don't hear about Denobulans in other trek series is because IT SIMPLY NEVER CAME UP.

And yet dozens of other species we have never seen on screen do. Obviously, the Denobulans didn't contribute much in the intervening two centuries.

Hmm... maybe the Denobulans pulled a Kamino and isolated themselves from the rest of the galaxy

This is suitable as a basic explanation -- a suitable dramatic explanation would include the reason why the onset of isolationism happened, and why it was so extreme.

...and out of sheer paranoia ordered the Federation to delete all records of their homeworld??

I don't know if that kind of request would fly realistically.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. I can think of few better applications of that than here.

See: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

Also note that the phrase "Absence of Evidence is not evidence of absence," is a tautology and an Appeal to Ignorance, and in future I expect better from you, K.

It may be a mere assumption to conclude that Denobulans no longer interact with the Federation in the 23rd or 24th century, but it is nevertheless correct to state that we see no evidence of interaction. The Darkling may point out that there may be evidence we do not see -- but if we do not see it, how can we label it evidence? I have similar evidence to support my assertion that Tampax tampons are staging a coup of the Venezuelan government. I saw it in a bar, or there was that tampon I saw driving a HMMWV last week... I think you take my meaning.

Since we do see evidence of interaction in the 22nd century, we observe that the evidence disappears -- does so, in fact, rather abruptly within a 100 year timeframe (2150s to 2260s). Since the evidence declines, and since the evidence is a result of interaction, there is strength in the assumption that A=Interaction to B=Evidence, therefore B=Reduced evidence indicates A=Reduced interaction. The assumption may be proven false -- however, it has not been proven so by canon events yet.

Just because they don't come up in other trek series doesn't mean they aren't important or that they aren't federation members or somehow no longer exist.

It is equally implausible, in light of the decline in evidence of interaction, to suspect that they do still exist. All we have concretely is a decline of indications that they interact with the Federation. It's logical, again, to conclude that the decline in evidence of interaction indicates a decline of interaction. Since that decline of evidence most closely equals a drop to zero, it is reasonable until new evidence is presented to assume that the interaction which generates the evidence has likewise dropped to zero.

[Admiral_K]

See: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

Also note that the phrase "Absence of Evidence is not evidence of absence," is a tautology and an Appeal to Ignorance, and in future I expect better from you, K.

Its not an appeal to ignorance in this case. It is an appeal to reason. (See the converse listed on the link you provided). You state that the Denobluns must not be present, or at the least not important because we don't hear them mentioned on any of the trek series. It is not logical to formulate such a hypothesis since the trek series gives us an incomplete view of the Trek universe.

It may be a mere assumption to conclude that Denobulans no longer interact with the Federation in the 23rd or 24th century, but it is nevertheless correct to state that we see no evidence of interaction. The Darkling may point out that there may be evidence we do not see -- but if we do not see it, how can we label it evidence? I have similar evidence to support my assertion that Tampax tampons are staging a coup of the Venezuelan government. I saw it in a bar, or there was that tampon I saw driving a HMMWV last week... I think you take my meaning.

The point is, there is not evidence to support either conclusion. For you to come and state that the Denobulans were either not present or not important in TOS ot TNG's era is completely without supporting evidence. Just because you don't see any evidence of interaction does not mean their is no interaction. If I'm sitting in a large room, but only a small portion of it is lighted does not mean nothing is happening in the darkened areas beyond my field of vision.

Since we do see evidence of interaction in the 22nd century, we observe that the evidence disappears -- does so, in fact, rather abruptly within a 100 year timeframe (2150s to 2260s). Since the evidence declines, and since the evidence is a result of interaction, there is strength in the assumption that A=Interaction to B=Evidence, therefore B=Reduced evidence indicates A=Reduced interaction. The assumption may be proven false -- however, it has not been proven so by canon events yet.

That is horribly convuluted. IF you had evidence of a major inter-species convention, where you could see every race represented and found that the Denobulans weren't present, then that would be something substantial to demonstrate that the Denobulans don't interact with the rest of the Federation.

It is equally implausible, in light of the decline in evidence of interaction, to suspect that they do still exist. All we have concretely is a decline of indications that they interact with the Federation. It's logical, again, to conclude that the decline in evidence of interaction indicates a decline of interaction. Since that decline of evidence most closely equals a drop to zero, it is reasonable until new evidence is presented to assume that the interaction which generates the evidence has likewise dropped to zero.

Actually, it is quite plausible to assume they still exist because We KNOW they exist in the 22nd century. The burden of proof would be on YOU to prove that they do not exist. Further, you have failed to answer my challenge of naming 25 of the over 150 "member worlds" in the Federation. The denobulans could be ANY of the 100+ members that we have never seen or heard from in TOS or TNG and beyond.

[TheDarkling]

Raoul Duke, Jr:

I'm going to repeat my requests since it seems like you missed them.

1. Prove the level of Denobulan intervention in galactic affairs is high.

2. Prove it isn't high during the later trek series.

3. Prove that this discrepancy can't be explained with very mundane and natural explanations.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

[
Its not an appeal to ignorance in this case. It is an appeal to reason. (See the converse listed on the link you provided). You state that the Denobluns must not be present, or at the least not important because we don't hear them mentioned on any of the trek series. It is not logical to formulate such a hypothesis since the trek series gives us an incomplete view of the Trek universe.

In which case, as Mike has pointed out with regard to the unknown, (and correct me, Mike, if i'm misinterpreting this) the default state is nonbelief until evidence is presented.

So, until evidence is presented that the Denobulans are active and/or important beyond the 22nd century, the scientifically acceptable assumption is that they are not.

The point is, there is not evidence to support either conclusion.[/quote]

In which case, again, the logically responsible position is to assume that they are not until we see evidence that they are.

If I'm sitting in a large room, but only a small portion of it is lighted does not mean nothing is happening in the darkened areas beyond my field of vision.

But you must admit that it is equally illogical to assume that there is something happening when there is no evidence that anything is happening. Your position that we should assume activity in the dark corners of the room is precisely where the fear of the bogeyman comes from.


That is horribly convuluted. IF you had evidence of a major inter-species convention, where you could see every race represented and found that the Denobulans weren't present, then that would be something substantial to demonstrate that the Denobulans don't interact with the rest of the Federation.[/quote]

It's not convoluted at all -- apparently, though, it's just not simple enough for you. Let me restate it this way: If you hear and see cars in the street for five minutes, then nothing in the street for a second period of five minutes, is it reasonable to assume that there are still cars in the street during that second five minute period? Maybe they're there and you just don't see them?

Actually, it is quite plausible to assume they still exist because We KNOW they exist in the 22nd century. The burden of proof would be on YOU to prove that they do not exist.

And now you ask me to prove a negative. Are you new here, K?

Further, you have failed to answer my challenge of naming 25 of the over 150 "member worlds" in the Federation.

Shall I play Adam?

The denobulans could be ANY of the 100+ members that we have never seen or heard from in TOS or TNG and beyond.

And if we have never seen or heard from them, while we have seen and heard of many others, it is not without merit to state that they lack prominence in the affairs of the Federation in that time period, which is precisely my point.

Please pay attention, I'll state it as simply as I can, and this will be the last time: The Denobulans do not play a significant role in the 23rd or 24th century Federation compared to the role they play in the 22nd century. This indicates a decline in their prominence in the interstellar community.[/i]

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Raoul Duke, Jr:

I'm going to repeat my requests since it seems like you missed them.

1. Prove the level of Denobulan intervention in galactic affairs is high.

The Denobulans are engaged in an Interspecies Medical Exchange program with the Vulcans, (Ent. S1E1, "Broken Bow")

The Denobulans, by extension, are engaged with Earth in this same program.

A Denobulan national is serving as Chief Medical Officer (noncom) on an Earth Starfleet vessel; the only other foreign national on the vessel is Vulcan. Based on these facts, Denobulans appear to hold nearly as much political influence in regards to Earth as Vulcans do at this point.

2. Prove it isn't high during the later trek series.

Requesting that I prove a negative is ridiculous. The burden of proof rests on you to prove that it is high. However, I'll cut you some slack -- I'll be satisfied if you merely prove that interaction between the Denobulans and other species occurs at all during the 23rd and 24th centuries.

3. Prove that this discrepancy can't be explained with very mundane and natural explanations.

I believe it can be explained through mundane and natural explanations -- that's why I called for such an explanation.

[TheDarkling]

The Denobulans are engaged in an Interspecies Medical Exchange program with the Vulcans, (Ent. S1E1, "Broken Bow")

Is it your assertion that it is just Vulcan, Earth and Denobula in the program if not then they are no more involved in the universe then all the other members (and I must also point out that at one conference Phlox seemed to be the only Denobulan there yet there were many Vulcans and obviously many other delegations).

The Denobulans, by extension, are engaged with Earth in this same program.

Along with many other races.

A Denobulan national is serving as Chief Medical Officer (noncom) on an Earth Starfleet vessel; the only other foreign national on the vessel is Vulcan. Based on these facts, Denobulans appear to hold nearly as much political influence in regards to Earth as Vulcans do at this point.

Honestly man listen to yourself, did you see Denobulans dictating that Phlox must be along, do you see Denobulans hanging over Admiral Forrest shoulder all the time, did a Denobulan ship recover the Xindi pod, did Denobulans have people in the control room when the first Warp 2 ship was tested, we have never seen any level of political interaction between earth and Denobula, if instead of Phlox another member of the exchange program (of a different race) had been assigned to that post then you would claim they had the same level of political interaction with earth (and somehow you extend this to the local galaxy as well) so you base you argument on a piece of random chance in what species was assigned to that post, can you not see why i find this reasoning faulty?

Requesting that I prove a negative is ridiculous. The burden of proof rests on you to prove that it is high. However, I'll cut you some slack -- I'll be satisfied if you merely prove that interaction between the Denobulans and other species occurs at all during the 23rd and 24th centuries.

Fair enough I will rephrase my question -
2.Prove what their level of interaction is.

We both know you can't yet only I seem to understand that this makes your claims baseless.
I again repeat we have (possibly) 2 examples example of the Tellerite (who we know are Federation members) appearing in those 200 years (and none in the secoind half of that time period), so what happened to the Tellerites in TNG+ ??? why aren't you asking that question?

I believe it can be explained through mundane and natural explanations -- that's why I called for such an explanation.

The Denobulans naturally lost influence over time, mystery solved.

You haven't addressed the first two points and if you manage to do so we arrive at number 3 which reveals that there is nothing odd going on anyway..... ???

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

The Denobulans are engaged in an Interspecies Medical Exchange program with the Vulcans, (Ent. S1E1, "Broken Bow")

Is it your assertion that it is just Vulcan, Earth and Denobula in the program if not then they are no more involved in the universe then all the other members (and I must also point out that at one conference Phlox seemed to be the only Denobulan there yet there were many Vulcans and obviously many other delegations).

So far we have yet to hear of any other species involved in the "Interspecies Medical Exchange", unless that was the nature of the specific conference you refer to.

Along with many other races.

Which other races?

Honestly man listen to yourself, did you see Denobulans dictating that Phlox must be along, do you see Denobulans hanging over Admiral Forrest shoulder all the time, did a Denobulan ship recover the Xindi pod, did Denobulans have people in the control room when the first Warp 2 ship was tested,

Which is why I said they have nearly as much prominence as the Vulcans.

...we have never seen any level of political interaction between earth and Denobula, if instead of Phlox another member of the exchange program (of a different race) had been assigned to that post then you would claim they had the same level of political interaction with earth (and somehow you extend this to the local galaxy as well)

Yes, I would. Suppose a Nigerian national were stationed to a U.S. aircraft carrier -- would that not imply a climate of close cooperation between the two nations?

...so you base you argument on a piece of random chance in what species was assigned to that post, can you not see why i find this reasoning faulty?

No, because the same problem would apply to any species that had enough interstellar presence to station their nationals on an Earth ship but then virtually disappeared 110 years later.

Fair enough I will rephrase my question -
2.Prove what their level of interaction is.

I think I've done that above.

We both know you can't yet only I seem to understand that this makes your claims baseless.
I again repeat we have (possibly) 2 examples example of the Tellerite (who we know are Federation members) appearing in those 200 years (and none in the secoind half of that time period), so what happened to the Tellerites in TNG+ ??? why aren't you asking that question?

Because the Tellarites are at least mentioned by name, along with other TOS species, at least a handful of times in the later series. Hence there is still evidence of interaction, even if we never witness that interaction directly.

The Denobulans naturally lost influence over time, mystery solved.

The mystery is not in that they lost influence, but that they lost it so quickly and completely.

You haven't addressed the first two points and if you manage to do so we arrive at number 3 which reveals that there is nothing odd going on anyway..... ???

Not quite. I have addressed the first 2 (quite effectively, I believe) and the third, as I just pointed out, is a mystery by how thoroughly and rapidly it occurred.

[Admiral_K]

I'm not going to make another huge quote filled post. I'll just sum up your points here, and if I don't do them justice feel free to elaborate:

Lets deal with your "car" analogy first.

If 5 minutes ago I am looking at the street and I see cars, and 5 minutes later I don't see cars does that mean cars are no longer on the street? Absolutely not. It simply means I can't see the cars. That could be because I'm not looking at the street.

Look at it this way, I guess naming 25 of the federation members was too difficult. How bout you just name the top 10 governments.

Can't do it? That's because we simply do not hear very much about governments other than Earth and Vulcan. In TNG, Betezed is apparently considered a major government (although this is debatable). I'm sure its no coincidence that we hear more about those governments because they happen to be the races all of whom main characters belong, so ofcourse it is more likely to be brought up. If you knew a lithuanian, his homeland and government might come up in conversation where otherwise it would not. Thats 3 I've given you, so you only need to come up with 7 more.

It is also apparently your contention that our default status should be to assume the Denobulans are not present/important. Actually it should be just the opposite since we SEE they are present in the 22nd century. Therefore, it is logical to assume they remain unless evidence points otherwise.

[TheDarkling]

So far we have yet to hear of any other species involved in the "Interspecies Medical Exchange", unless that was the nature of the specific conference you refer to.

There was a exchange program conference, where there were no humans and Phlox was the only Denobulan unless the Vulcans were having a conference with themselves then there must be other races involved.

Which other races?

Who knows? Obviously being a member of the exchange program doesn't make a race high profile, gee could this support my position?

Which is why I said they have nearly as much prominence as the Vulcans.

The UK has nearly as much influence in Washington as Lichtenstein; spot the problem with my statement.

You say nearly but have no evidence of political influence at all; this makes your conclusion baseless.

Yes, I would. Suppose a Nigerian national were stationed to a U.S. aircraft carrier -- would that not imply a climate of close cooperation between the two nations?

Not if that Nigerian could have easily been any other nationality and just happened to a Nigerian by blind luck although remember the Doctor was just a normal doctor until asked by Archer to come along so it would be better analogy for a Nigerian doctor in the US, which doesn't imply close cooperation between the governments.

No, because the same problem would apply to any species that had enough interstellar presence to station their nationals on an Earth ship but then virtually disappeared 110 years later.

They didn't have the power to station him, Archer asked for him, if he US asked Joe Smith from Paraguay to come practice medicine in the US would that mean Paraguay had a huge cache of power with the US??? No it wouldn't, you can't seem to understand that random chance does not a case make.

I think I've done that above.

Indulge me; show me your evidence indicating the level of involvement the Denobulans have in TNG+.

Because the Tellarites are at least mentioned by name, along with other TOS species, at least a handful of times in the later series. Hence there is still evidence of interaction, even if we never witness that interaction directly.

No they aren't I have the scripts in txt files and a search for Tellerite brings up nothing, they AREN'T mentioned and neither are the Deltans, please explain why you don't see these as great mysteries.
The Bynars also only get one mention in 200 years, that seems odd as well, yet another mystery.....

The mystery is not in that they lost influence, but that they lost it so quickly and completely.

Not really they just were a big fish in a little pond, however you are getting ahead of yourself, we still have the two previous points to address.

Not quite. I have addressed the first 2 (quite effectively, I believe) and the third, as I just pointed out, is a mystery by how thoroughly and rapidly it occurred.

Well I'm afraid you haven't addressed the first two (you were completely wrong regarding mentions of Tellerites for a start). you haven't proved the Denobulans had huige power and you haven't proved they lost this power and finally this can be explained through very mundane means perhaps they had peaked yet the other nations still had a lot of growth potential so their relative power diminished, nothing interesting and no mystery.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I'm not going to make another huge quote filled post. I'll just sum up your points here, and if I don't do them justice feel free to elaborate:

Lets deal with your "car" analogy first.

If 5 minutes ago I am looking at the street and I see cars, and 5 minutes later I don't see cars does that mean cars are no longer on the street? Absolutely not. It simply means I can't see the cars. That could be because I'm not looking at the street.

You've changed the analogy. Here it is again, but we'll restrict ourselves, thank you, to the part of the street within your vision:

If you look at the street for five minutes and see and hear cars driving past, you may conclude based on the sight and sound of cars driving past you that, indeed, cars are driving past you.

In in the next five minutes the indications of cars driving past you in the street has disappeared, you may then conclude based on the lack of sights and sounds of cars driving past you that -- you guessed it -- there is no reason to believe that cars are still driving past you unless you simply choose to believe it with no basis in evidence.

Look at it this way, I guess naming 25 of the federation members was too difficult. How bout you just name the top 10 governments.

Can't do it? That's because we simply do not hear very much about governments other than Earth and Vulcan. In TNG, Betezed is apparently considered a major government (although this is debatable). I'm sure its no coincidence that we hear more about those governments because they happen to be the races all of whom main characters belong, so ofcourse it is more likely to be brought up. If you knew a lithuanian, his homeland and government might come up in conversation where otherwise it would not. Thats 3 I've given you, so you only need to come up with 7 more.

Red Herring. We're not talking about 7 other governments, or 10 other governments, or 150 other governments. We're talking about 1 government which has a high level of prominence in the 2150s and zero prominence only 110 years later.

It is also apparently your contention that our default status should be to assume the Denobulans are not present/important.

It is my contention that it's illogical to believe a thing exists without the benefit of evidence. My outlook on the Denobulans is based on that contention.

Actually it should be just the opposite since we SEE they are present in the 22nd century. Therefore, it is logical to assume they remain unless evidence points otherwise.

Their extinction is only one possible explanation for their lack of prominence in the 23rd century onward. As it stands, nothing has been established to show what happens to them, although as I've demonstrated, it is logical to assume that something does occur.

[apocolypse]

Ok we've got 150 members in the federation. So name 25 of them. Any 25. If you can do that, you'd deserve a prize. If you could name even 50 that have been mentioned or seen on screen you'd have to be considered a trek guru. I anxiously await your list.

Okay, I wanna try....

Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, Betazoids, Trill, Bajorans, Bolians, Bynars, Risans, Zakdorn, Antedeans, Alpha Centaureans, Benzites, Deltans, Arkarian?, Caitian, Anticans, Selaians, Berengarians, Grazerites, Klaestrons, Zaldans, Tessens, Bre'elians, the Cairn (pending?), and Delbians. There are a few others I've seen, but have no clue as to name.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Ok we've got 150 members in the federation. So name 25 of them. Any 25. If you can do that, you'd deserve a prize. If you could name even 50 that have been mentioned or seen on screen you'd have to be considered a trek guru. I anxiously await your list.

Okay, I wanna try....

Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, Betazoids, Trill, Bajorans, Bolians, Bynars, Risans, Zakdorn, Antedeans, Alpha Centaureans, Benzites, Deltans, Arkarian?, Caitian, Anticans, Selaians, Berengarians, Grazerites, Klaestrons, Zaldans, Tessens, Bre'elians, the Cairn (pending?), and Delbians. There are a few others I've seen, but have no clue as to name.

Don't forget the Denebians (of the famed Slime Devil) the Tarkelians (they make good tea) the Saurians (Brandy for them, thanks) the Rigellians, the Alpha Centaurii (Cochrane eventually ended up there before his inevitable meeting with the Companion)...

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Also, point to ponder: Phlox may have been personally requested by Archer, but that doesn't mean that it was quite that simple -- Phlox's posting to Enterprise still had to be approved by both governments, which still implies friendly political status between the two.

[TheDarkling]

Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, Betazoids,

No problem wih those 5.

Trill,

Some people don't think the Trill are members of the Federation although I learn towards the view point that they are.

Bajorans,

They weren't members by the end of DS9 but they may be by the end of Voyager, still they are an unknown.

Bolians,

We know they trade with he Romulans so they may/may not be Fed members, so they are in the same boat as the Trill.

Bynars,

See Trill.

Risans, Zakdorn,

No problem with those 2

Antedeans,

If you mean the fish like Antedian's then we don't know if they joined the Federation (there delegate did plan to blw up the conference).

Alpha Centaureans,

I'm not sure they exist.

Benzites,

Not sure they are fed members although I think they are we do know they have their own space navy... so its up in the air.

Deltans,

No problem there.

Arkarian?,

They are members (well their planet houses a Fed base so i assume they are).

Caitian,

Who are they? My STE has no record of them and a script search revealed nothing.

Anticans, Selaians,

Picard didn't seem to think they would get into the Federation.

Berengarians,

I find a reference to a planet (with Dragons) but no mention if it is a member of the Federation or just some colony.

Grazerites,

Yep.

Klaestrons,

I don't think so, they had to have an extradition treaty with (as a Klaestron put it) "your" Federation.

Zaldans,

Maybe, maybe not just because someone is a member of starfleet doesn't mean they are a Fed citizen but lets assume they are.

Tessens,

It is a Fed world but we don't know if it is a colony or not.

Bre'elians,

Yep

the Cairn (pending?),

Its possible they are, are on their way or have given up but I think the mnost likely outycome is that they are Fed members.

and Delbians.

Not sure but probable.