More on Terri Schiavo--UPDATE: Schiavo dead 31 Mar 05

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Elfdart
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Post by Elfdart »

And here I thought the bill of attainder was a relic of the days of Oliver Cromwell! :roll:

What's really going on here is plain as day: The GOP owes the fundies. They haven't delivered on abortion, school prayer or putting homosexuals in their place. So now they're meddling in this case to show the fundie lemmings that their votes were well cast last November and would be appreciated in 2006.

In a perverse way, I hope they do send US marshalls out to drag Schiavo's corpse to Congress to testify. Maybe they could get Bob Woodward and Miss Cleo (both of whom claim expertise in speaking to the brain dead) and hold a seance.

These people are political corpsefuckers.
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Post by Joe »

Woodward? Really? Never figured him for a nut.
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Post by Elfdart »

Joe wrote:Woodward? Really? Never figured him for a nut.
Woodward claimed that he talked to CIA director William Casey (and Casey talked back) in 1987. Casey had suffered a massive stroke. According to his doctors, family and people who actually did visit him, Casey couldn't talk.*

He was in pretty much the same state my father was in right before he died from a cerebral hemorrhage in Nov 1986 (no, he couldn't talk or respond, either) and the state Schiavo is in now.

*Casey was under heavy guard and surveilance at the hospital, yet Woodward claims he just walked right into the private room of the CIA director. :roll:

Alexander Cockburn compared Woodward to Hamlet: both carried on conversations with dead men that they -and they alone- heard.
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Post by Hamel »

After talking to people about this issue, I've determined (like you guys have) that those who want to keep her alive are just whoring the pro life issue. It's a political thing for them. Personally I think they should be put in straitjackets and locked up in mental institutions. Why? Because it's obvious that they don't give two fucks about her and are just talking shit.
Fucking delusional idiot that should be put in the madhouse wrote: Echoing your request, I ask that all LP'ers who value the sanctity and dignity of Human Life, which is God's Gift to each of us, fast and pray tomorrow for Terri Schiavo.

I invite you to join me in 24 hours of prayer and fasting.
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Post by The Dark »

Legally, there is no basis for this case. Upon marriage, the parents' right of legal guardianship is terminated indefinitely, unless divorce occurs. Her husband is still her legal guardian. Unless there is a direct written order to the contrary, his wishes are what is legal in her case.

Medically, she is dead and beyond help. I spoke with a friend of mine who is an RN working at a hospice, and he said she cannot recover. However, due to the feeding tube, she should not be in hospice care, as that is not a pallative measure. Only measures intended to reduce pain and assist a "good death" are legal within hospice care. Incidentally, the removal of a feeding tube and the subsequent natural death are considered among the most humane ways of death. The brain naturally suppresses hunger when it is dying, and even conscious people feel no pain when they stop eating at the end of terminal disease (and yes, there are studies that have been done on it). Given that the portion of her brain that would feel hunger appears to have been subject to necrosis, "starvation" is a very poor term to use for the natural death she would undergo (assuming she lived long enough to die of caloric loss...more likely she would die of other complications due to reduced caloric intake first, rather than starve to death).

Terri Schiavo should be allowed to die a dignified death, or as close as she can get after the right-wing nutjob media circus that her corpse is involved in.
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Post by Lord Poe »

Where were these people when they could have saved that extra head on that egyptian girl that blinked and moved its mouth?
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Lord Poe wrote:Where were these people when they could have saved that extra head on that egyptian girl that blinked and moved its mouth?
People who are pro-life do tend to be anti-head aswell...
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Post by Elfdart »

Just when I thought the Necrophile Right couldn't sink any lower:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mp ... an/3073295

March 8, 2005, 12:33AM
Hospitals can end life support
Decision hinges on patient's ability to pay, prognosis
By LEIGH HOPPER
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

A patient's inability to pay for medical care combined with a prognosis that renders further care futile are two reasons a hospital might suggest cutting off life support, the chief medical officer at St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital said Monday.

Dr. David Pate's comments came as the family of Spiro Nikolouzos fights to keep St. Luke's from turning off the ventilator and artificial feedings keeping the 68-year-old grandfather alive.

St. Luke's notified Jannette Nikolouzos in a March 1 letter that it would withdraw life-sustaining care of her husband of 34 years in 10 days, which would be Friday. Mario Caba-llero, the attorney representing the family, said he is seeking a two-week extension, at minimum, to give the man more time to improve and to give his family more time to find an alternative facility.

Caballero said he would discuss that issue with hospital attorneys today.

Pate said he could not address Nikolouzos' case specifically because he doesn't have permission from the family but could talk about the situation in general.

"If there is agreement on the part of all the physicians that the patient does have an irreversible, terminal illness," he said, "we're not going to drag this on forever ...

"When the hospital is really correct and the care is futile ... you're not going to find many hospitals or long-term acute care facilities (that) want to take that case," he said. "Any facility that's going to be receiving a patient in that condition ... is going to want to be paid for it, of course."


Patient showed emotion
Caballero said he believes the hospital wants to discontinue care because Nikolouzos' Medicare funding is running out.

Spiro Nikolouzos, a retired electrical engineer for an oil drilling company, has been an invalid since 2001, when he experienced bleeding related to a shunt in his brain. Jannette Nikolouzos, 58, had cared for her husband at their Friendswood home, feeding him via a tube in his stomach. Her husband couldn't speak, she said, but recognized family members and showed emotion.

On Feb. 10, the area around the tube started bleeding, and Nikolouzos rushed her husband to St. Luke's for emergency care. Early the next morning, she said, the hospital called and said he had "coded" and stopped breathing and had to be placed on a ventilator.

A neurologist told her, she said, that he is not brain-dead and the part of the brain that controls breathing is still functioning. Although his eyes were open and fixed when he first was placed on the ventilator, he has started blinking, she said.


A missed opportunity
Dr. Marcia Levetown, director of palliative care at The Methodist Hospital, said moving Nikolouzos to a nursing home or other type of facility may not be an option if his body is dependent on several types of technology, such as mechanical ventilation and kidney dialysis.

Levetown said when families and hospitals take their disagreements to court, it often means the hospital has missed an important opportunity in the family's emotional healing.

Often missing from aggressive medical care is empathy for family members and acknowledgment of grief, she said.

"The acknowledgment of 'You clearly love your husband very much. You've done the good fight' " makes a difference, she said. Levetown also tells families, "Whatever might be beneficial, you've made sure he's gotten that. We all wish he could get better ... How can we best honor this man ... as we accompany him in his next journey?"

Law allows removal
State law allows doctors to remove patients from life support if the hospital's ethics committee agrees, but it requires that the hospital give families 10 days to find another facility.

A similar case is still in the courts. Texas Children's Hospital wants to discontinue life support on 5-month-old Sun Hudson, who was diagnosed shortly after birth with a fatal form of dwarfism. His mother, Wanda Hudson, wants her son's care to continue at the hospital.

On Wednesday, a judge will consider whether Harris County Probate Court judge William McCulloch may remain on the Hudson case. Caballero, who represents Wanda Hudson, filed a motion that McCulloch remove himself from the case after making what Caballero said were biased statements.

=-=-=-=-=-=-


http://atrios.blogspot.com/

"In 1999 then governor Bush signed a law which allowed hospitals to withdraw life support from patients, over the objections of the family, if they consider the treatment to be nonbeneficial."

=-=-=-=-=-=-

So if you're the spouse of someone who is brain dead or in a PVS, Dubya says you can't pull the plug or remove the tube. But if you're a hospital looking to cut financial losses on a hard luck case when there there really is a question of whether the patient is a goner, you can. What a fucking scumbag! :finger:
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Post by Iceberg »

When hundreds of thousands of people were dead in the most devastating natural disaster of our time, and President Bush was on vacation, what did he do? He kept his vacation going. His press monkeys said it was too "presumptuous" for the president to get his head out from under the mistletoe to actively do something about 1.5 million people dead or homeless. But for ONE brain-dead clump of meat and bone, he can't get back to the White House fast enough.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

I'm sick and tired of this subjective horseshit "we felt that he recognized us and showed emotion blah blah blah."

People anthropomorphize their pets, including fucking fish and rats all the time and believe it earnestly. Medical science is medical science. Family emotional reactions are not.
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Post by EmperorSolo51 »

Iceberg wrote:When hundreds of thousands of people were dead in the most devastating natural disaster of our time, and President Bush was on vacation, what did he do? He kept his vacation going. His press monkeys said it was too "presumptuous" for the president to get his head out from under the mistletoe to actively do something about 1.5 million people dead or homeless. But for ONE brain-dead clump of meat and bone, he can't get back to the White House fast enough.
Nit-pick: A President by definition is never on vacation. He is still being briefed by his cabinet and joint chiefs daily.
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Post by Iceberg »

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
Iceberg wrote:When hundreds of thousands of people were dead in the most devastating natural disaster of our time, and President Bush was on vacation, what did he do? He kept his vacation going. His press monkeys said it was too "presumptuous" for the president to get his head out from under the mistletoe to actively do something about 1.5 million people dead or homeless. But for ONE brain-dead clump of meat and bone, he can't get back to the White House fast enough.
Nit-pick: A President by definition is never on vacation. He is still being briefed by his cabinet and joint chiefs daily.
It doesn't change the fact that his priorities are clearly and demonstrably massively misaligned.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Iceberg wrote:It doesn't change the fact that his priorities are clearly and demonstrably massively misaligned.
Nonsense. George W. Bush is merely putting forth this effort because he can identify with poor Terri Schiavo's plight. Who better to understand a person with no brain functions than George W. Bush?

Perhaps he's hoping to appoint her as his new Secretary of Defense.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Ah, so that's why Wolfowitz was sent to the World Bank; Bush didn't want him completely overshadowed by Terri's intellect.
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Post by Frank Hipper »

Hehe, I told my mom today how Operation Rescue is deeply committed to the fight to keep Terry Schiavo's feeding tube in; she said "Now I KNOW that it's wrong to keep her hanging on like this!"

Mom despises Operation Rescue with a purple passion. :D
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Post by Fire Fly »

The interesting thing about this case is that the vast majority of Americans would not want to be kept in the same position that Terri Schiavo is currently in. In a poll conducted by Fox News (you know its gotta be true if the results show up in an opposite manner as that of Fox News):

-50% say that the spouse should be the one who decides who pulls the plug while 31% say the parents should

-61%, if they were the legal guardian, would remove the tube while 22% would not

-71%, if they were in the position of Terri Schiavo, would want the plug pulled while 16% would not

The following link is an PDF file: Fox News Poll

[rant]Clearly, this entire case is being blown out of proportions by a small but passionate/zealous, religious conservative minority with the aid of the media. This case should've ended years ago but has been kept in the spot light by people ruled by emotions and irrationality and by Republican politicians who are interfering with state laws and individual rights/matters. Honestly, Republicans have been wrong on almost every issue in the past but are just masters of masquerades. And fuck to the President for being a fucking hypocrite, not that that isn't well known by now.[/rant]
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Don't the fundies always scream about "the will of the people" in regards to gay marriage?

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Post by The_Nice_Guy »

What right does anybody have with regards with what is essentially a breathing corpse?

My take on it is simple. The state has no business deciding the matter, and as long as there're suckers willing to pay the money for life support, le 'em keep the breathing corpse, as long as they're not taking taxpayer money. The rest of the pro-lifers can put their money where their big mouths are.

The rest of us get on with our lives.

That said, maybe more people would specify in some form of will or whatnot exactly under what circumstances they would willingly pull the plug and die with dignity.

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Post by Durandal »

Jalinth wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Seperation of Powers? What's that..?
Be interesting to see SCOTUS give a very strong (7-2, 8-1) slapdown. I could see most justices with the exception of Thomas saying no way.

But most likely they'd just agree with the Court of Appeals decision slapping down any new legislation and deny it ceritori just because the answer should be obvious and they don't want to waste time on answer idiots.
They already gave the decision to remove the tube their blessing. When the family appealed the verdict of the (I believe) Florida Supreme Court that Mr. Schiavo had the right to decide whether to remove the feeding tube, SCOTUS refused to hear the case. In other words, they could find absolutely nothing questionable, procedurally or constitutionally.

If SCOTUS does step in, it'll almost certainly be a strong majority, if not unanimous opinion that the husband's wishes be carried out with no further political meddling. This is one of those cases where the law is absolutely crystal clear.
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Post by Panzer Grenadier »

Drudge has a sound clip on his website that was made by the family. It is suppossed to show Terry in distress because her feeding tube has been removed. Sounds like random moaning to me though.
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Post by Vympel »

Crystal clear law, you say? Damn those activist judges!

I didn't know this woman literally had no brain in there. I find the parents obsession to be damn creepy. It's really sick- they need therapy I think. Not to mention their persistent attempts to assassinate her husband's character. She's been gone since fucking 1990, they expect him remain married to what is for all intents and purposes a breathing corpse?
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

This post is to inform my family that, in the case of me lapsing into a coma and being brain dead: Pull the plug after a year, okay?
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Post by The Dark »

Well, the House voted to allow a Federal court to review the Florida court's decision...because the Federal court didn't decide to pass on it and the SCOTUS didn't decide to pass on it. I don't care about rogue judges, I'm more concerned about rogue legislators! We've got 208 of them in the House.
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Post by Vympel »

Is it possible for SCOTUS to strike down this new law?
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Is it possible for SCOTUS to strike down this new law?
It better be, because this law could be applied to "review" other rulings against gay-marriage bans, evolution vs creationism, etc.
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