Question about Riker in Nemesis

[Darth Wong]

There are 2 problems with having a powerful backup force for the Duras sisters:

• They are pariahs among the Klingons for siding with the Romulans; where are they getting this support from? The Romulans? The Romulans will see no advantage in helping them now.
• If they had enough firepower to overwhelm a Galaxy-class starship through conventional means, why bother with this whole annoying visor subplot at all?

[Imperial Overlord]

One of the advantages of superior backup is that you can get rid of the stupid visor subplot. This will decrease the suckitude of Generations.

Where is this support coming from? Other Duros loyalists. There was a civil war going on before their support collapsed. Instead of them fleeing with one ship of supporters, give them several ships worth of die hards. No need for a visor, the Enterprise can demonstrate its power against impressive opponents, and Riker can save the day with good tactics.

[brianeyci]

...and Riker can save the day with good tactics.

"Evasive pattern omega-alpha-zeta-beta-Riker-one! Separate the saucer section! Eject the warp core and blow it up! Launch shuttles to draw fire! Use the tractor beam to fuck with their targeting! Slingshot around the sun! Ramming speed!"

Brian

[Uraniun235]

If they had enough firepower to overwhelm a Galaxy-class starship through conventional means, why bother with this whole annoying visor subplot at all?

I would have no problems with completely excising the visor subplot.

[Crazedwraith]

They are pariahs among the Klingons for siding with the Romulans; where are they getting this support from? The Romulans? The Romulans will see no advantage in helping them now.

Easy just imply the House of Duras was so big, two BoPs and a Vor'cha are just mere scrapings on their scale.

[Lord Pounder]

As it was in TNG, untill Picard intervened, the Duras where about to win the civil war with a lot of help from Sela. House Durasmust have had a lot of clout just to be in a position to challenge Gowron (sp?)

[Lord Revan]

As it was in TNG, untill Picard intervened, the Duras where about to win the civil war with a lot of help from Sela. House Durasmust have had a lot of clout just to be in a position to challenge Gowron (sp?)

IIRC they have support of X number fleet commanders who probaly didn't know the Romulan supported the sisters.

[CaptJodan]

No. In ST:III Kirk had forever to fire at the BOP while it was "charging weapons". Such a tactic is not feasible. Also, as soon as a ship decloaks, it cannot recloak and decloak again because a ship could fire spatial charges (REF:VOY) which forces a ship to decloak. They can't use spatial charges if they don't know that a ship is there, but if they know the ship is decloaking and recloaking they could use them. And the decloaking and recloaking and powering weapons and raising sheilds process is not that fast, it takes up to a minute.

Actually, just to bring this point back up, it is pretty feasible to use cloaking/decloaking tactics as referenced by the DS9 episode during Worf's trial where he attacked a Klingon civilian transport whilst under fire by two seperate Klingon ships, a BOP and an older battlecruiser. We saw in the episode that it didn't take that long to charge weapons, or cloak and decloak, and the tactics displayed were effective in drawing the Defiant away from the convoy.

In terms of the Enterprise battle, and with just one BOP, I doubt it would have been a huge factor that would have helped the Duras sisters. They had only one ship, and even if they didn't, the Enterprise doesn't have the fire arc limitations of the Defiant, and could probably lock a target and fire before they could raise their shields.

Also, at least at the time of DS9 and the Klingon/Federation war, they didn't seem to be using these spatial charges.

[Alyeska]

Worf was limited in that episode because there were two ships AND Worf had orders to protect the convoy. None of these situations exist in Generations.

[Lord Revan]

No. In ST:III Kirk had forever to fire at the BOP while it was "charging weapons". Such a tactic is not feasible. Also, as soon as a ship decloaks, it cannot recloak and decloak again because a ship could fire spatial charges (REF:VOY) which forces a ship to decloak. They can't use spatial charges if they don't know that a ship is there, but if they know the ship is decloaking and recloaking they could use them. And the decloaking and recloaking and powering weapons and raising sheilds process is not that fast, it takes up to a minute.

Actually, just to bring this point back up, it is pretty feasible to use cloaking/decloaking tactics as referenced by the DS9 episode during Worf's trial where he attacked a Klingon civilian transport whilst under fire by two seperate Klingon ships, a BOP and an older battlecruiser. We saw in the episode that it didn't take that long to charge weapons, or cloak and decloak, and the tactics displayed were effective in drawing the Defiant away from the convoy.

In terms of the Enterprise battle, and with just one BOP, I doubt it would have been a huge factor that would have helped the Duras sisters. They had only one ship, and even if they didn't, the Enterprise doesn't have the fire arc limitations of the Defiant, and could probably lock a target and fire before they could raise their shields.

Also, at least at the time of DS9 and the Klingon/Federation war, they didn't seem to be using these spatial charges.

The GCS has fire arc, limitations (almost as bad as Defiant (the Defiant has more phasers then just th pulse phasers) and it takes more then second to get a lock on decloaked ship (more then enough time to fire and recloak)

[Alyeska]

The Galaxy class has no fire arc limitations. The BOP could have appeared anywhere and the Enterprise could have swatted the BOP with no less then three phaser arrays.

[brianeyci]

I wonder if separating the saucer section gives any advantage at all. It would only be an advantage if you could outmaneuver the opponent, but I don't recall any time in Trek where Galaxies separated for some tactical advantage other than vs the Borg. Definitely during the Dominion War, Galaxies stayed together for the most part.

Brian

[Alyeska]

Actualy seperating can concievably give a significant advantage to the Galaxy class. They can effectively put twice as much power into the shields because its only half the surface area. I think the shield boost outweighs the potential weapon loss of outright loosing the saucer section.

[brianeyci]

They can effectively put twice as much power into the shields because its only half the surface area.

That doesn't necessarily follow. Just because they have a lesser area to shield, doesn't mean that they can put twice the "power" into shields (I say "power" because I don't really know what you mean by that, I think the most popular theory is that shields are a cloud of exotic particles).

Separating might not give such a huge advantage. The saucer section kind of protects the stardrive section, if you approach from the right angle. Also the saucer has the main phaser array, and the stardrive the warp core, so separating would mean they couldn't do the trick of "transferring all warp power to the main phaser array" that I believe we've heard (if not, at least we've heard "transfer all warp power to the shields").

<edit>Actually I remember now, in ST:TMP Decker says that phasers are fed directly by warp power.</edit>

Brian

[Batman]

They can effectively put twice as much power into the shields because its only half the surface area.

That doesn't necessarily follow. Just because they have a lesser area to shield, doesn't mean that they can put twice the "power" into shields (I say "power" because I don't really know what you mean by that, I think the most popular theory is that shields are a cloud of exotic particles).

While the 'power' nitpick is pretty pathetic, I happen to agree: While halving the surface area theoretically allows you to double shield strength, what if your shield generators aren't designed to handle that much power, or such a shield intensity?

Separating might not give such a huge advantage. The saucer section kind of protects the stardrive section, if you approach from the right angle.

If you rely on the physical shielding the primary hull provides, you've already lost, as it means shields are down.

<edit>Actually I remember now, in ST:TMP Decker says that phasers are fed directly by warp power.</edit>

Not only does that not apply to the E-D, but only the E-nil refit, but just about EVERYBODY agreed that this was a stupid idea on account of the phasers being inoperative when the Warp drive was off-line. As a matter of fact, Decker and Scotty were already working on a bypass when the matter came up. There's no reason to assume they stuck with that stupid idea.

[Uraniun235]

Actualy seperating can concievably give a significant advantage to the Galaxy class. They can effectively put twice as much power into the shields because its only half the surface area. I think the shield boost outweighs the potential weapon loss of outright loosing the saucer section.

Er, doesn't that assume that you'd still have the same number of shield generators after the separation?

Yes, if two shield generators suddenly have to only cover half the area, it might well be stronger for it, but what if by doing so you also take one of the shield generators away?

[Alyeska]

We already know that shields are not typicaly powered by the warp core and they can be super charged in power by the warp core. This tells us that the shield emitters can handle more energy then they typicaly put out. Battle Section can get effectively double the normal shield power the combined ship has.

[Kamakazie Sith]

The GCS has fire arc, limitations (almost as bad as Defiant (the Defiant has more phasers then just th pulse phasers) and it takes more then second to get a lock on decloaked ship (more then enough time to fire and recloak)

Exactly what fire arc limitations does a GCS have?

[brianeyci]

We already know that shields are not typicaly powered by the warp core and they can be super charged in power by the warp core. This tells us that the shield emitters can handle more energy then they typicaly put out. Battle Section can get effectively double the normal shield power the combined ship has.

If you have a better reason why Trek ships don't fight in warp and use warp strafing more often... actually scratch that, I need to ask you a question. Do you think Trek ships can warp strafe? I certainly do. Go to warp, line your ship up with an enemy and fire away. We know ships in warp can interact with ships in realspace. If not, you could line up your ship and come out of warp in front of the enemy, "Picard Maneuver". Why aren't there a shitload of Picard Maneuvers in DS9, it is a superior tactic seemingly.

The only way to justify them not fighting at warp or using Picard Maneuver more often (without Trek commanders being idiots) is that there is some advantage to staying sublight. I have proposed two explainations in the past. One being when Worf suggests on a BOP that they use some technobabble to disable the warp cores of ten Dominion ships. Since Worf suggests it, and none of the Klingons were aware of this tactic, perhaps this is standard Federation battle proceedure and in a large fleet could be dedicated ships making sure the enemy stays sublight. The other suggestion that doesn't involve technobabble is that warp power shunted to the shields or phasers provides a greater advantage than more maneuverability.

Just because Geordi says "warp power diverted to the shields", that doesn't mean that it isn't a standard Federation tactic to do so. Other instances could be implied. We don't see fighting in warp, warp strafing, or Picard Maneuver as often as we should, so it could be an implied tactic to shunt warp power to the shields or weapons and we don't hear it.

Also just because Decker and Scotty were working on a bypass to the phasers, that doesn't mean that warp power isn't generally used by phasers on Fed ships in battle. The very fact that they have to work on a bypass shows that the Ent-Nil was hardwired to fire phasers with warp power. They wouldn't do this unless there was an advantage to staying sublight and shunting warp power to the phasers in a normal combat situation.

If you have a better explaination (or don't believe that warp strafing or Picard Maneuver is possible/good idea) why Fed ships don't use warp to fight more often, I'd like to hear it.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

Alyeska, logically speaking, the fact that you can increase shield emitter output by an unspecified amount does not prove that you can necessarily double it.

[Uraniun235]

We already know that shields are not typicaly powered by the warp core and they can be super charged in power by the warp core. This tells us that the shield emitters can handle more energy then they typicaly put out. Battle Section can get effectively double the normal shield power the combined ship has.

We know that they can be ramped up for one blast which they saw coming in TNG The Nth Degree. I don't think it necessarily follows that they could be held at those levels for extended combat operations; it might overstress the deflector grid and lead to premature hardware failure, which could explain why they don't always throw warp power into the shields.

They wouldn't do this unless there was an advantage to staying sublight and shunting warp power to the phasers in a normal combat situation.

...or, the phasers don't take nearly the amount of power required by the nacelles, and so they could operate at the same time as the warp drive.

If you have a better explaination (or don't believe that warp strafing or Picard Maneuver is possible/good idea) why Fed ships don't use warp to fight more often, I'd like to hear it.

At warp speed, as a ship passed by, phaser shots would probably be smeared all over the shields rather than in a concentrated point, as well as being in a rather short burst. As a result, phasers lose a lot of effectiveness.

We don't know the manuevering capabilities of photon torpedos at warp speeds; they may not be able to fire sufficiently off-axis in order to make "strafing" a feasible maneuver. (i.e. the miniature warp engines the torpedos use may not be able to sustain the warp field if fired off-axis, or they may not permit sufficient manuevering to allow post-launch course correction, or they may not be able to sustain warp long enough for the ship to fire and then veer off before risking collision)

I remember now, in ST:TMP Decker says that phasers are fed directly by warp power.

No, he said phaser power was boosted by channeling it through the warp engines, which (along with the very feasibility of a bypass) implied that they have the energy to fire the phasers without the warp engines; the designers just didn't ever have the foresight to think the warp drive might be disabled.

As for the whole bloody comment which started this hootenanny...

Actualy seperating can concievably give a significant advantage to the Galaxy class.

I think this has been covered in the past, with such notes as Riker's remark about possibly needing the saucer's powerplants in combat against the Borg, the very large phaser strips present on the saucer, and (as mentioned in this thread) the continued presence of saucers during the Dominion War.

[BenRG]

Wasn't there some early early early version of the story where the Romulans were involved and the E-D chopped off the nosepiece of a Warbird by ramming the neck?

That was in the giant novel "The Devil's Heart". IIRC, the E-D had been ambushed by a pair of D'deridex warbirds who fired first after decloaking. Despite taking a lot of battle damage, the E-D managed to hold them both off until Picard, in a slightly-OOC moment of fury, has the ship ram one of the Warbirds with the SIF and IDF set at maximum. The impact, under full impulse acceleration, is enough to throw every circuit breaker on the ship but the leading edge of the saucer cuts through the warbird's two dorsals like they are made of wet paper. Either as a secondary effect or possibly due to some kind of design fault, the ramming also makes the Romulan main power system go supercritical and it blows, vaporising the severed 'head' at the same time.

Worf practically has an orgasm when he has a moment to think about what has just happened.

It occurs to me that this is a vaild tactic for countering the Duras BoP in 'Generations'. Simply set the main navigational deflector to maximum and charge at full impulse. Even if the impact wasn't crippling, it would have everyone on the smaller ship bouncing around for a few seconds, more than enough time to let fly with the E-D's rear guns and torpedo launchers.

[Crazedwraith]

chopped off the nosepiece of a Warbird by ramming the neck?

That was in the giant novel "The Devil's Heart". IIRC,

I've got that book. Never managed to get into it. Myabe that will give me an incentive...

[Sir Sirius]

I was under the impression that the saucer seperation was a way of getting the civilians out of harms way, rather then to improve the ships combat cababilities. After all the Odyssey took the time to unload the civilians on to DS9 in DS9:"Jem'Hadar" and the flew in to combat with the saucer attached. It doesn't seem too likely that they would do so if the ship was significantly more effective in combat with out the saucer.

[Chris OFarrell]

chopped off the nosepiece of a Warbird by ramming the neck?

That was in the giant novel "The Devil's Heart". IIRC,

I've got that book. Never managed to get into it. Myabe that will give me an incentive...

It didn't happen. It was in the novel 'Federation'

A 'Defecting' warbird was being confronted by an attacking warbird inside Federation space. Picard fired a torpedo volley at the attacker then blasted in to point blank range of the defecting warbird to beam its crew off. The defecting warbird then cloaked and the E-D was cloaked along with it. This caused the E-D's warp core to fry and shut down (the writer made this the reason UFP ships don't use cloaking devices).

Picard had no power to the phasers. The IPS system was charing at maximum but would take a good 15 minuites to fully charge the shields and phasers, not enough torpedoes could possibly be launched in time to destroy the attacker, before they shot the unshielded E-D to hell. And the IPS system at full blast was releasing enough waste products to make detection possible through the cloak after a few minuites. So he changed the rules.

Here is what happened then:

He told himself he was the captain of the Enterprise. Even now, with only seconds left in which to make his decision, he thought of the other vessels who had carried her name-all on the sculpted mural in his ready room. He thought of the company he kept: April, Pike, Kirk, Harriman, Garrett. They had never abandoned their ship or their crews. Picard would not either. There had to be some way out he hadn't considered. Some ...

... Something deep within him spoke to him ... an echo of Sarek's mind... an echo of another mind Sarek had touched ... he couldn't be sure. But he was reminded at once that there had been other Enterprises even before the ones that plied the stars. Other captains. Other ...

Picard could almost feel the wind against his face, hear the flap of the sails, smell the smoke from the cannons as the seas raged all around him.
Something in him told him to change the rules of the encounter -not to concentrate on the Enterprise's limitations, but on Traklamek's.
He saw the way.

Data gave the countdown. "Thirty seconds."

"Distance to Traklamek's Warbird," Picard said.

"Two kilometers," Data answered.

Picard stood behind Data, put his hand on the back of the android's chair.
"Residual cloaking bleed, Mr. Data-how long does it last?"

Data angled his head questioningly. "A few tenths of a second, sir."

Picard nodded. "Then ten kilometers per second should do it. Mr. Data, transfer all power to the structural integrity field."

Data carried out the command instantly, but Riker moved to Picard's side to swiftly question him. "All power to the SIF? We're not in atmosphere, and without warp speed, the Enterprise doesn't even need the SIF."

"Where we're going," Picard said, "we don't need warp speed." He looked behind him to tactical. "Mr. Worf, target the dorsal bridge spine of
Traklamek's ship. Then feed those coordinates to the helm. Now."

Worf immediately acted as directed, without questioning his captain's order. But Riker looked at Picard with wide eyes, at last understanding.

"Captain, you can't be serious," he said.

"Five seconds to detection," Data announced.

"Number One," Picard said, "I have never been more serious in my life. Ensign McKnight-on my mark."

Then as he pointed his finger at the screen, he gave an order that had not been heard aboard an Enterprise for centuries-

"Ramming speed!"


Instantly the Enterprise sprang forward, her inertial dampers protecting all aboard from the monstrous force of the 10^3-gravity acceleration her impulse engines could achieve.

Traklamek's Warbird didn't have a chance.

Its defensive shields were tuned to the frequencies required to protect it from Federation phasers and photon-torpedo radiation. At relative rest under battle conditions, its navigational shields were configured to deflect dust and debris, and to leave energy available for weapons. They would only draw more power when the ship began to move again, or when sensors picked up incoming objects.

Undoubtedly, in the ship's last microseconds of existence, its sensors did pick up one incoming object-the 3.71-million-tonne mass of the U.S.S. Enterprise. But the residual cloaking bleed from Tarl's cloaking field distorted the Enterprise's sensor image and Traklamek's computers automatically requested verification before altering the allocation of power to the shields under battle conditions. Romulan programmers had foreseen that danger might arise if shield frequencies were permitted to change in response to spurious sensor ghosts.

But even running at one billion operations per second, there was no time for
confirmation of any sensor readings.

The Enterprise passed through the Warbird's navigational deflectors as if they did not exist.

The defensive shields set for radiation did not even register the Enterprise's presence.

And on the Warbird's bridge, destruction was so swift that there
was not even time for realization of their fate to form in the minds of the crew.

The leading edge of the Enterprise's saucer section hit the dorsal bridge spine of Traklamek's ship at 36 thousand kilometers per hour. The Galaxy-class starship's internal forcefield system was designed to augment her structural integrity under the strains of warp acceleration. The system was tuned to the highest setting it would require to withstand velocities in excess of 1.78 trillion kilometers per hour-giving her a rigidity that rivaled that of degenerate matter at the heart of neutron stars.

Contact lasted less than one-hundredth of a second. If the Enterprise's warp core had been active, the shock-wave feedback through the ship's structural integrity field would have triggered an instant antimatter compression wave, destroying the ship at once. But the warp core was off-line, and the Enterprise sliced the Warbird's head from its body and flew on intact.
In the Warbird's main hulls, the shock of the Enterprise's passage crystallized duranium. The mechanisms of that ship's artificial singularity reactor shattered so suddenly that all gravitational containment fields failed at once in a massive implosion. In the Warbird's bridge, all power conduits were severed at once. Immediately, its own inertial dampers and artificial gravity systems shut down. The force with which the accelerating bulkheads then hit the suddenly motionless crew members reduced them to superheated pulp in less than a thousandth of a second. Mere thousandths of a second after that, that pulp was consumed by the energy release of the singularity implosion erupting from the ship's other half.

In less than a second, there was nothing physical left of Traklamek's ship larger than an isolinear chip.

Resolute, the Enterprise flew on.


On the bridge, every alarm built into every console and piece of equipment sounded at once. Picard heard obscure warning chimes he had heard before only in simulations. All lights flickered, display screens rolled. The bridge speakers squealed as they were momentarily overloaded by the messages inundating them. The straining inertial dampers sent fluttering shivers through the ship as they tried repeatedly to reset themselves, making the superstructure creak and groan.

Picard blinked.

It had taken no longer than that for the Enterprise to have obliterated her enemy. Then he moistened his suddenly dry lips. He glanced over at Ensign McKnight. Her face was drained of any color. Strands of blond hair hung in sweat-soaked tangles on her forehead.

Riker stared at Picard with an expression the captain could not read. "When Starfleet hears about this, I don't know if they're going to give you a medal or a court-martial."

"I'll settle for a refit," Picard said. He turned to tactical. Worf was also staring at him with a strange expression.

"Yes, Mr. Worf?" Picard asked.

Worf grinned, baring his teeth as only a Klingon could. His dark eyes sparkled beneath his heavy brow. "It is an honor to serve with you, Captain Picard. Songs will be sung about what you did here today." Then he went on speaking in Hoi, so rapidly that Picard couldn't pick up any of it.

"Mr. Worf? Mr. Worf."Picard said to interrupt what he took to be his tactical officer's praise. "Damage report, please."

Worf nodded and looked down at his board as he sighed. "It is difficult to know where to begin," he said.

In the end, it would have been briefer to list those ship's systems which had not sustained some type of damage in the collision. When Lieutenant La Forge was informed what had caused the severe shock to the ship, after a pause his response had been, "No, seriously, what just happened?"