Why does everyone think Jellico's great?

[Durandal]

Well, let's put it this way: cutting the staff of a department in half is not likely to increase its capabilities, is it?

That depends on how much dead weight is hanging around. Sometimes cutting a few employees who do nothing can actually increase productivity.

[Darth Wong]

Well, let's put it this way: cutting the staff of a department in half is not likely to increase its capabilities, is it?

That depends on how much dead weight is hanging around. Sometimes cutting a few employees who do nothing can actually increase productivity.

That's because you're not just transferring them; you're firing them and setting an example.

[Uraniun235]

And what makes you think that the full staff in engineering necesarily was necessary? It's entirely possible that there were redundancies among the crew that were not necessary to the good operation of the ship while not at alert.

That's not the only issue here. The engineering department just worked for 48 hours straight; they're likely to be exhausted. Come on, we're all more than familiar with the "lol GCS warp cores explode" joke. Would you want an under-strength shift of bleary-eyed people working with the volatile warp drive of the E-D? While they're adjusting to not having people there that they've been used to counting on?

[Death from the Sea]

Name me an episode where you see anyone from Engineering sitting in the corner fingering their asses for lack of anything better to do? Every time you see them they are doing something. So your question about if they are all needed or not has no basis at all. That crew was there for every episode we go into engineering. It is not a great leap in logic to deduce that the number of them there is because that is how many that are needed.

Name an episode where LaForge isn't trying to come up with a more effecient something in engineering, that speaks volumes as to how much of the crew is actually needed to run the ship.
Think of it this way when you walk into an office building and see everyone typing away on the computers how do you know they are doing actual work and not instant messaging each other or working a pet project of their own? you don't unless you examine more closely what they are doing, same goes for the crew of the Enterprise, just because they are in the future doesn't mean people quit looking busy while screwing off on company time. Besides it was often those that just happened to be standing nearby or walking by were often given tasks by Geordi when he wanted things done.
Then there is the fact that we constantly see throughout Trek people on duty not at their station, how many time do we hear people say they are on duty but are in ten-forward or the holo-deck? I can't give an exact number but I would wager it is high.

[Darth Wong]

Did Jellico inspect the engineering dept. in order to decide which personnel to pull out and which personnel were necessary, so that he could confirm it would be a good idea to cut engineering to half strength? I don't get the impression that he did. In my impression, he was just out to show people who's boss. It's good to be unambiguous about the military chain of command, but it's not good to be arbitrary about the exercise of power.

[Trogdor]

I would just like to make a couple points here.

1. Riker was NOT the only qualified shuttle pilot on the Enterprise to perform what Jellico wanted done. He was just the best one. LaForge himself tells Jellico "I could do it, but the man you really want is Cmdr. Riker." It was simply that if the shuttle pilot screwed up, they were dead. Jellico knew he needed the chance of failure to be minimal, so he asks Riker, despite his dislike of him, to pilot the shuttle. Very professional. Point for Jellico.

2. There is no evidence that Jellico would do better in combat against the Cardie fleet than Picard would've. Jellico acted like a tough guy, but Picard has a manuver named after him. Has anyone here ever heard of a Jellico Manuver, because I know I sure haven't. Point for Picard.

[Lord Poe]

Did Jellico inspect the engineering dept. in order to decide which personnel to pull out and which personnel were necessary, so that he could confirm it would be a good idea to cut engineering to half strength? I don't get the impression that he did. In my impression, he was just out to show people who's boss. It's good to be unambiguous about the military chain of command, but it's not good to be arbitrary about the exercise of power.

No, he didn't do that. He asked GEORDIE to do that, to "get it done". Just as any new boss would; he'd ask the head of the department to take care of the details. We have to assume Jellico knows his way around a starship, and what he could and couldn't do to interfere with the ship's function without making it dangerous. Even Data backed Jellico's decision, which he wouldn't do if it wasn't sound.

[Trogdor]

Data, being an android, has little concept of human fatigue. He probably didn't fully realize what it was Jellico was asking. Either way, it's still stupid to go into a potential battle situation with a wiped out crew.

[Lord Poe]

Data, being an android, has little concept of human fatigue. He probably didn't fully realize what it was Jellico was asking.

Do we have proof that Data is incapable of evaluating human limitations? I never got that impression.

Either way, it's still stupid to go into a potential battle situation with a wiped out crew.

With 4 shift rotations, they'll be more rested than ever.

[Lonestar]

Did Jellico inspect the engineering dept. in order to decide which personnel to pull out and which personnel were necessary, so that he could confirm it would be a good idea to cut engineering to half strength?

How is that relavent? He may have came from a ship of similiar size/crew size and it was done there with no problem. There may be a Starfleet publication somewhere (it being a military org, it has a large beauracracy like any other) That says " A GCS may have as many as x amount of people assigned to engineering". There also seems to be an inordinate amount of random Technicians assigned to engineering, they're the guys who fix everything. Maybe he was moving Sensor Techs over to OPs, Weapons Maintenance men over to Combat, etc.

I don't get the impression that he did. In my impression, he was just out to show people who's boss. It's good to be unambiguous about the military chain of command, but it's not good to be arbitrary about the exercise of power.

So? He may have stepped on board and in less then 5 minutes seen that the crew was more "Family" than "military". He may have decided that (a) moving people around would be better for combat ops, and (b) the proper chain of command had to be re-asserted. Was he an Asshole? yes. Was he trying to bring discipline to the ship before the likely engaged the Cardies? Yup. Was he Competant? Well, in that case its's a dummy amoung idiots I think.

[Death from the Sea]

Just FYI the episodes in question that have Jellico in the or on TNN... er I mean SPIKE TV right now.

[Uraniun235]

He asked GEORDIE to do that, to "get it done".

That was with regard to his extensive ship modifications. Geordi says to Riker "and now he's transferred a third of my crew to security!" We never see Jellico ordering Geordi to pick the people to be transferred to security.

What about Geordi's complaints regarding Jellico's modifications? "I don't mind making changes and I don't mind hard work, but the man isn't giving me the time I need to do the work!" It sounds like Geordi thinks his orders are unreasonable.

[Death from the Sea]

He asked GEORDIE to do that, to "get it done".

That was with regard to his extensive ship modifications. Geordi says to Riker "and now he's transferred a third of my crew to security!" We never see Jellico ordering Geordi to pick the people to be transferred to security.

What about Geordi's complaints regarding Jellico's modifications? "I don't mind making changes and I don't mind hard work, but the man isn't giving me the time I need to do the work!" It sounds like Geordi thinks his orders are unreasonable.

LaForge is often seen whining and bitching in Trek, this is just another example. Data said it could be done in the given time.When told what needed to be done LaForge started talking about how much work it was going to be, not about how he needed more people to do it, this clearly indicates LaForge didn't want to do the work and therefore willing to make excuses to Riker.

[MrAnderson]

He asked GEORDIE to do that, to "get it done".

That was with regard to his extensive ship modifications. Geordi says to Riker "and now he's transferred a third of my crew to security!" We never see Jellico ordering Geordi to pick the people to be transferred to security.

What about Geordi's complaints regarding Jellico's modifications? "I don't mind making changes and I don't mind hard work, but the man isn't giving me the time I need to do the work!" It sounds like Geordi thinks his orders are unreasonable.

LaForge is often seen whining and bitching in Trek, this is just another example. Data said it could be done in the given time.When told what needed to be done LaForge started talking about how much work it was going to be, not about how he needed more people to do it, this clearly indicates LaForge didn't want to do the work and therefore willing to make excuses to Riker.

Has anyone ever asked what fucking purpose it would serve to move 1/3rd of the people in Engineering over to Security? I seriously doubt that 1/3 of Engineering is made up of non-com schleps with no serious skills. Which means that for no good reason Jellico movied Engineers over to security for what? So they could wear different colored shirts and walk the halls carrying phasers that do not shoot straight in the vague fear that additional security was needed?

Engineering is the MOST critical part of a starship. It is like the engineering section of a Nuclear Submarine. If the engines stop working everyone onboard dies. Anything that pulls people away from the highly unstable and volatile engines of a Federation Starship is insane and those orders are proof that the person giving them is a complete fucktard. Hell they can barely keep the engines from exploding under any sort of problem. Now they have to do it with only 2/3 the normal number of people and spread over 4 shifts.

That means when there is a problem only HALF the normal number of people can do something in those first few minutes when proper action is most needed to avert a disaster when it arises.

[Uraniun235]

LaForge is often seen whining and bitching in Trek, this is just another example. Data said it could be done in the given time.When told what needed to be done LaForge started talking about how much work it was going to be, not about how he needed more people to do it, this clearly indicates LaForge didn't want to do the work and therefore willing to make excuses to Riker.

Data said it could be done "if we utilize the entire Engineering department." Geordi said "Yeah, if everybody's working around the clock." Geordi did not complain about manpower because, as was said, two days was already with a full Engineering staff; Jellico had not yet transferred Engineering personnel to Security.

Also, when we see Geordi bitching to Riker, he talks about Jellico having assigned additional tasks to Engineering on top of the 2-day warp coil realignment while simultaneously cutting the strength of the Engineering department.

Yes, it could be done, but whether it's a good idea or not is not so certain; Data only said "feasible" and "attainable goal." Running a marathon's an attainable goal too (given prior training for it), but it can be rather hard on the body.

[Death from the Sea]

Has anyone ever asked what fucking purpose it would serve to move 1/3rd of the people in Engineering over to Security? I seriously doubt that 1/3 of Engineering is made up of non-com schleps with no serious skills. Which means that for no good reason Jellico movied Engineers over to security for what? So they could wear different colored shirts and walk the halls carrying phasers that do not shoot straight in the vague fear that additional security was needed?

They are about to get into a situation that put them in harms way and the beefed up security force could be needed to fend off borders or maybe even assault other ships or a planet. And seeing as how Jellico had these people moved to security a few days prior it is reasonable they were brushing up on their skills in the holodeck. Besides they are in a military organization, they have to have had some basic training with weapons and such.

Engineering is the MOST critical part of a starship. It is like the engineering section of a Nuclear Submarine. If the engines stop working everyone onboard dies. Anything that pulls people away from the highly unstable and volatile engines of a Federation Starship is insane and those orders are proof that the person giving them is a complete fucktard. Hell they can barely keep the engines from exploding under any sort of problem. Now they have to do it with only 2/3 the normal number of people and spread over 4 shifts.

You are not listening. If the shifts are shorter and there are fewer people around making more work for those that are on duty, there is going to be an improvement in efficiency. Why? 1. because there is always something to do. 2. shorter shifts means less chance the crew of growing tired on duty. 3. shorter shifts also means less chance of the crew getting bored on duty, this is also reinforced by the fact that they should be busier than previously. 4. more people at their stations and less crew roaming the ship on duty because the work space is taken.

That means when there is a problem only HALF the normal number of people can do something in those first few minutes when proper action is most needed to avert a disaster when it arises.

prove that Geordie, Data, Riker, Jellico or any other crewmember would reduce the the on duty crew to levels that would make it dangerous to operate the ship. The fact that Jellico is transferring the people around and changing the sift rotation points to the fact that the Enterprise had bloated engineering shifts. You forget that the Enterprise is used for exploration and discovery. This is not limited to space exploration but also lab experiments and things of that nature. It would be reasonable to say that a portion of the crew is conducting those experiments and we hear Jellico tell the senior officers that since they are going into a situation where battle may take place, the experiments are not needed. Also when general quarters are sounded the crew reports to their duty station whether they are on or off duty. General quarters would be yellow or red alert in Star Trek terms. so again how is the crew not as effective when they are allowed more time off?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Any half way decent military officer would do the same in his situation.

And that's exactly why people like him -- he actually is a halfway decent military officer. Compared to Picard, he's practically the fucking Rommel of Starfleet, and it was a breath of fresh air watching him do what any Captain worth his pips should do.

[The Yosemite Bear]

No Rommel/Drake of Starfleet would have come back with <4> Galor Prize ships. Rather then with his tail between his legs. <Which would make sense for attaching engineering to the security personeel, someone has to run those prizeships with a skeleton crew, while you have the Cardassian's over in your ship's brig.....>

[Uraniun235]

Besides they are in a military organization, they have to have had some basic training with weapons and such.

The same military organization that thinks it isn't one.

[Death from the Sea]

Besides they are in a military organization, they have to have had some basic training with weapons and such.

The same military organization that thinks it isn't one.

IIRC that was Picards retarded view. Not the truth.

[Lord Pounder]

I made prefect sense for Jellico to tansfer some less than essential personel to security when they where about to walk into a situation that could end up in hostile action. A few extra Red Shirts on duty is just what you need when surrounded my a couple of Cardies spoiling for a fight.