widebeam on starships?

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2004-03-25 01:49am

Was there a episode of Voyager where Voy's phaser arrays were used to fire off a widebeam? I seem to remember there being so but I'm not sure.

Also, what effects do you think it would have on the effects of the phaser beam?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-03-25 02:07am

I have never seen starships fire widebeams in any episode. Starship phasers may be able to fire widebeams though because they are based on the same technology as hand phasers.

Widebeams would probobly do less damage than regular phaser beams since the beams energy is dispersed over a large area.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-03-25 02:20am

As I recall from the TOS episode "A Piece of the Action" Kirk called on the Enterprise to shoot a phaser strike, from orbit, set to "stun" - make of that what you will, but it covered a "wide" area (a city block). This is important, because in the episode "The Apple" I recall the Enterprise's phaser strike on the god-machine to be somewhat... thin.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-03-25 12:31pm

Presumeably, most phaser technology can fire at wide beam settings at various levels. However, in order to have the same effect upon targets within the confines of the wide beam, the energy expenditure must be greater by several orders of magnitude. Thus is makes sense we don't see phasers fired at these wide beam settings very often. Drains existing power sources far more vastly in comparison to narrow beam shots.

Damnit, I wish the bastards as paramount would show us a phaser set to wide beam maximum power(ie: vaporize or explosive). Level a building by example rather than simply implying so by dialogue.

Thag · Post by **Thag** » 2004-03-25 01:15pm

Actually, they used phasers to level Apollo's temple in TOS, and normal beams were sufficient for that. Full power wide beam would be more appropriate for burning a city/city block.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-03-25 03:01pm

Robert Walper wrote:Presumeably, most phaser technology can fire at wide beam settings at various levels. However, in order to have the same effect upon targets within the confines of the wide beam, the energy expenditure must be greater by several orders of magnitude. Thus is makes sense we don't see phasers fired at these wide beam settings very often. Drains existing power sources far more vastly in comparison to narrow beam shots.

I imagine that the narrow-beam shots are also better at damaging starships, simply because they will need to penetrate less material and shielding in order to affect critical systems. In combat, I'd say that they were shooting narrow-beams all the time to help them punch through body-armor and obstacles but... well... I've never seen them punch through body armor and obstacles with narrow-beam shots.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-03-25 04:38pm

Wide beam was used in A Piece Of The Action, but was stun.

Wide beam was used in, IIRC, 'Homefront' DS9. The one where they use low stun settings to force a Changeling out of it's disguise. Again, stun.

It was used in a VOY episode against the bridge crew. Again, stun.

Anyone else noticing a pattern here?

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2004-03-25 05:04pm

SirNitram wrote:Wide beam was used in A Piece Of The Action, but was stun.

Wide beam was used in, IIRC, 'Homefront' DS9. The one where they use low stun settings to force a Changeling out of it's disguise. Again, stun.

It was used in a VOY episode against the bridge crew. Again, stun.

Anyone else noticing a pattern here?

Wider beam only works for Stunning?
Might work.....

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-03-25 06:03pm

It'd be useful for room-securing operations... poke your hand into the door and shoot the hell outta it with a phaser on wide-beam. don't even have to expose yourself to fire. alternatively, send a redshirt to do the job...

more seriously, it would certainly be useful in situations of that kind, especially hostage-rescue missions. that way you could take out the bad guys without too much possibility of damage to the hostages, unlike a flashbang.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-03-25 06:17pm

LadyTevar wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Wide beam was used in A Piece Of The Action, but was stun.

Wide beam was used in, IIRC, 'Homefront' DS9. The one where they use low stun settings to force a Changeling out of it's disguise. Again, stun.

It was used in a VOY episode against the bridge crew. Again, stun.

Anyone else noticing a pattern here?
Wider beam only works for Stunning?
Might work.....

Wider area, reduced intensity, therefore likely that stun may be all it is capable of in a wide beam setting.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-03-25 07:45pm

Should be noted that the stun setting CAN be detrimental (TNG "Samaritan Snare") and even deadly (Star Trek 6), so recklessly spraying stun shots in a hostage situation might not be wise.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-03-25 07:48pm

Uraniun235 wrote:Should be noted that the stun setting CAN be detrimental (TNG "Samaritan Snare") and even deadly (Star Trek 6), so recklessly spraying stun shots in a hostage situation might not be wise.

in star trek 6, it was also noted that a Stun setting at point blank range can be lethal. As one of the traitors on board the Enterprised used it to cover their trails so they wouldn't set off the internal sensors.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-03-26 02:45am

SirNitram wrote:Wide beam was used in A Piece Of The Action, but was stun.

Wide beam was used in, IIRC, 'Homefront' DS9. The one where they use low stun settings to force a Changeling out of it's disguise. Again, stun.

It was used in a VOY episode against the bridge crew. Again, stun.

Anyone else noticing a pattern here?

The only pattern noticed is that we've only seen wide beam set to stun. It has been directly stated or implied, several times, that a phaser can be set to wide beam kill and even higher settings. Against Voyager's bridge crew(per your example), Tuvok said he had set the phaser to wide beam kill. The entire bridge crew didn't contradict him, nor did they make any move. Seska from the earlier Voyager episodes also set a phaser rifle to kill wide beam, and said she'd take out the entire group of hostages if they made any move. Again, these hostages(Voyager crewmembers) didn't contradict her.

The only really complaint I'd make is how passive the Federation is and poorly trained it's personnel are.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-03-26 08:49am

The only really complaint I'd make is how passive the Federation is and poorly trained it's personnel are.

There might be other reasons why phasers are not used in widebeam mode. Perhaps they drain their batteries very quickly when set on widebeam.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-03-26 12:02pm

evilcat4000 wrote:
The only really complaint I'd make is how passive the Federation is and poorly trained it's personnel are.
There might be other reasons why phasers are not used in widebeam mode. Perhaps they drain their batteries very quickly when set on widebeam.

I said that already...regardless of how much power a phaser has available altogether, power consumption for wide beam settings is going to be magnitudes greater in order to maintain the same level of effectiveness.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-03-26 10:16pm

Has a wide-beam kill setting ever been shown, either from a ship's phasers or from a hand-held one? Implications and even direct statements are subject to interpretation. Perhaps the reason the statement that such a setting exists is not contradicted by Starfleet personnel is because it's a trick, like the Corbomite Maneuver. Maybe "wide-beam kill" on a hand phaser is really designed to render the phaser useless or incapacitate the shooter. I doubt Starfleet wants an enemy to get hold of a weapon able to waste a roomful of people with one shot.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-03-26 11:24pm

That's stupid. Unless you think Tuvok and the Voyager bridge crew doesn't know the capabilities of the weapon he's holding.

MarkIX · Post by **MarkIX** » 2004-03-27 12:33am

CDiehl wrote: Maybe "wide-beam kill" on a hand phaser is really designed to render the phaser useless or incapacitate the shooter.

In that case one of the crew would surely have done something to trigger the "trick", rather than simply stand there

I doubt Starfleet wants an enemy to get hold of a weapon able to waste a roomful of people with one shot.

are you suggesting they would design their weapons to be generally less effective just in case the enemy where to get hold of them? Doesn't sound reasonable.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-03-27 01:21am

CDiehl wrote:Has a wide-beam kill setting ever been shown, either from a ship's phasers or from a hand-held one? Implications and even direct statements are subject to interpretation. Perhaps the reason the statement that such a setting exists is not contradicted by Starfleet personnel is because it's a trick, like the Corbomite Maneuver. Maybe "wide-beam kill" on a hand phaser is really designed to render the phaser useless or incapacitate the shooter. I doubt Starfleet wants an enemy to get hold of a weapon able to waste a roomful of people with one shot.

Wide beam phasers were shown in some TNG episodes. They were fired from hand phasers.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-03-27 10:59am

evilcat4000 wrote:
CDiehl wrote:Has a wide-beam kill setting ever been shown, either from a ship's phasers or from a hand-held one? Implications and even direct statements are subject to interpretation. Perhaps the reason the statement that such a setting exists is not contradicted by Starfleet personnel is because it's a trick, like the Corbomite Maneuver. Maybe "wide-beam kill" on a hand phaser is really designed to render the phaser useless or incapacitate the shooter. I doubt Starfleet wants an enemy to get hold of a weapon able to waste a roomful of people with one shot.
Wide beam phasers were shown in some TNG episodes. They were fired from hand phasers.

Also seen in DS9 and Voyager. DarkStar has some good screen caps here:

h.ttp://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWdodgethis.html

I continue to believe that hand phasers can utilize any witnessed setting on wide beam. The only question is how many times the phaser can be fired at wide beam at relevent settings.

I'd personally theorize maximum power at wide beam is only good for one or two shots(leveling a building but the phaser is totally drained), with kill, heating, etc good for perhaps a few dozen shots.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-03-27 01:32pm

I'm not talking about wide-beam stun settings. The TOS Enterprise could drop everyone on a street from orbit. I'm talking about wide-beam KILL settings. If such a marvelous capability exists, why isn't it used in situations where it would be most useful? Why weren't Starfleet security personnel hosing the Klingons down with wide-beam kill shots in Way of the Warrior? Why didn't the guys on AR-558 give the Jem'Hadar a few wide-beam kill shots and finish them? Also, why does nobody else use this setting on their weapons? I find it hard to believe Klingons would feel any qualms about wide-beam killing an enemy unit, and I can't believe it's beyond the capabilities of anyone but the Federation.

The only evidence that a phaser has a wide-beam kill setting exists on a Federation phaser is verbal in nature, and as I said before, that is subject to interpretation. Just because they say such a thing exists, which we never see used even where it would be an asset, doesn't mean it does. Why wouldn't they have such a setting on the phasers if it works? Well, maybe Starfleet decided they're a waste of energy. Why have the setting listed if it doesn't exist? Maybe it's like I suggested, a trick, with the idea of delivering a wide-beam kill shot as bait. It's not like Starfleet is above using deception to get an advantage or deny one to an enemy. If it sounds goofy, it might well be, but it's not out of character for Starfleet.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2004-03-27 02:43pm

Robert Walper wrote:I continue to believe that hand phasers can utilize any witnessed setting on wide beam. The only question is how many times the phaser can be fired at wide beam at relevent settings.

I'd personally theorize maximum power at wide beam is only good for one or two shots(leveling a building but the phaser is totally drained), with kill, heating, etc good for perhaps a few dozen shots.

That "theory" would be based on the mindless assumption that when you widen a beam, you get a vastly more powerful beam, rather than dispersing the same amount of power over a wider area and thus reducing its intensity.

I'm sure they can fire a wide-beam kill shot. The problem is that it's so dispersed that it will only stun you.

MarkIX · Post by **MarkIX** » 2004-03-27 10:37pm

CDiehl wrote: Why have the setting listed if it doesn't exist? Maybe it's like I suggested, a trick, with the idea of delivering a wide-beam kill shot as bait. It's not like Starfleet is above using deception to get an advantage or deny one to an enemy. If it sounds goofy, it might well be, but it's not out of character for Starfleet.

My point was that the People being held hostage by the "wide beam Kill" set phasers were starfleet personell if that was the case and the setting was a trick then they would have or should have known otherwise its not useful as a trick is it.
It could also be that while there is a setting that means maximum possible output in a widebeam mode it is still not powerful enough to kill reliably but it was labeled WBK because sometimes it does, that sounds like starfleet to me.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-03-27 11:05pm

We know from ST6 that there is no definite line between stun and kill, since stun can kill from very close range. Presumably you can also have very large individuals who are only stunned by a kill shot and small people who are killed by stun.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-03-27 11:42pm

AdmiralKanos wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:I continue to believe that hand phasers can utilize any witnessed setting on wide beam. The only question is how many times the phaser can be fired at wide beam at relevent settings.

I'd personally theorize maximum power at wide beam is only good for one or two shots(leveling a building but the phaser is totally drained), with kill, heating, etc good for perhaps a few dozen shots.
That "theory" would be based on the mindless assumption that when you widen a beam, you get a vastly more powerful beam,

No, you don't "get" a vastly more powerful beam, you need one to maintain the same level of effectiveness.

rather than dispersing the same amount of power over a wider area and thus reducing its intensity.

If the widened beam has the same energy put into it as a narrow beam, then the intensity will, of course, diminish accordingly. I'm suggesting the wider the beam, the more energy that is fed into the output to maintain the same level of effectiveness. This affects overall power availability, which is what I said(ie: one shot and energy is gone while 15,000+ shots available with narrow beam settings).

I'm sure they can fire a wide-beam kill shot. The problem is that it's so dispersed that it will only stun you.

Only if there is no compensation for the width of the beam and extra energy required to maintain the same level of effectiveness. I give Starfleet crewmembers and officers enough credit to know what their weaponry is capable of, and base my interpretations accordingly.