Proton torpedoes make stars go boom?

[General Zod]

As for the Red Giants, would you even want a planet around one of them?

think Krypton.

[HRogge]

No, it wasn't the helium that triggered the explosion. Apparently, the torpedoes exploded/injected stuff into the star, and that's supposed to turn the star into a helium star, but in the actual event there was a "neutron migration" that caused the temperature in the star to keep rising, and thus go boomy.

So it was neither a star made from hydrogen nor one made of helium... most likely a white dwarf or something similar, made of carbon. They can go supernova if they get enough additional matter ( the process is pretty common in systems with two stars ).

[Straha]

No, it wasn't the helium that triggered the explosion. Apparently, the torpedoes exploded/injected stuff into the star, and that's supposed to turn the star into a helium star, but in the actual event there was a "neutron migration" that caused the temperature in the star to keep rising, and thus go boomy.

So it was neither a star made from hydrogen nor one made of helium... most likely a white dwarf or something similar, made of carbon. They can go supernova if they get enough additional matter ( the process is pretty common in systems with two stars ).

No, it was a dying hydrogen star, that was destroyed by "neutron migration."

[HRogge]

No, it was a dying hydrogen star, that was destroyed by "neutron migration."

You said they planned to convert the star into a helium star... but a "dying hydrogen star" IS a helium star.

[Straha]

No, it was a dying hydrogen star, that was destroyed by "neutron migration."

You said they planned to convert the star into a helium star... but a "dying hydrogen star" IS a helium star.

BAH! They planned to convert it into a star that would be able to continue nuclear fusion with Helium instead of Hydrogen.


Sorry about my lack of cosmology terms.

[Metrion Cascade]

I thought the Founder's bomb was based on protomatter?

Nope, that was the bomb that Kira's old friend from the resistance tried to blow up the wormhole with. The Founder's bomb was indeed Trilithium.

I just dug up the episode: When the Defiant was chasing down the stolen runabout with the Founder's nova bomb on board, Dax said she was detecting large ammounts of tekacite, trilithium, and protomatter on board, obviosly meaning that the Dominion could not build nova bombs using trilithium alone...

Well, shit. Conceded. There is no evidence of any AQ starkillers besides the Tox Utaat and Soran's weapon. And I'm assuming Starfleet doesn't have the specs for Soran's weapon.

[HRogge]

BAH! They planned to convert it into a star that would be able to continue nuclear fusion with Helium instead of Hydrogen.

Okay, let's collect some facts... they had a star without fusion reaction ( either a white dwarf, a brown dwarf or a neutron star. It could have been a planetary nebula, but this is unlikely because there would be nothing "solid" left to work with.

They planned to convert the star into a large amount of helium, so that it could "burn" again... this tell us that the star neither contained hydrogen ( it would still be shining bright ) nor helium ( if it contained helium they would need no "restarting" ).

When they started their experiment something went wrong with neutrons and the star exploded in a supernova...

My theory:
The star was a white dwarf, below the treshhold mass of 1.3 solar masses ( at this point white dwarfs get instable and detonate in a supernova ).
They somehow tried to convert the very compact mass of the white star ( mostly carbon ) back into helium, so that it could ignite itself again and burn for a few million years. When the torpedos hit the pressure in the white dwarf exceeded the treshhold and the core of the while star began to collapse into a neutron star while the outher shells were pushed away by the shockwave. This is a typical supernova typ one.

The theory is consitant with the facts you told me, it can explain how the star would be able to create a fusion reaction again and it's not contradicting what we know about the physics of stars ( except the part where they planned to convert the star back into helium ).

[Straha]

BAH! They planned to convert it into a star that would be able to continue nuclear fusion with Helium instead of Hydrogen.

Okay, let's collect some facts... they had a star without fusion reaction ( either a white dwarf, a brown dwarf or a neutron star. It could have been a planetary nebula, but this is unlikely because there would be nothing "solid" left to work with.

They planned to convert the star into a large amount of helium, so that it could "burn" again... this tell us that the star neither contained hydrogen ( it would still be shining bright ) nor helium ( if it contained helium they would need no "restarting" ).

When they started their experiment something went wrong with neutrons and the star exploded in a supernova...

NO, it WAS an active hydrogen star. The star, however, was on the verge of death. They fired the torpedoes into the star's core (with shielding that survived that far) and detonated them. Then the star started performing helium fusion instead of hydrogen fusion for about thirty seconds, before it became unstable and blew up.


(Kids, don't try to explain stuff in a B&B ST episode without plenty of caffeine)

[Eframepilot]

Well, shit. Conceded. There is no evidence of any AQ starkillers besides the Tox Utaat and Soran's weapon. And I'm assuming Starfleet doesn't have the specs for Soran's weapon.

There was a 2nd season DS9 episode where a Federation terraformer reignites a dead star with a protomatter device, said to transmute the heavier elements in the dead star into hydrogen. There was a significant possibility that the experiment could fail and trigger a supernova, as Dax had plans to get their starship out of the system at Warp 9 if necessary. Logically, if the Federation can use protomatter to reignite dead stars and potentially trigger supernovae, they have the capability to develop nova weapons. This would also explain why detecting protomatter in fake-Bashir's shuttle instantly made the crew think "Supernova!" Of course, being the goody-goody Feds, they probably haven't bothered to actually develop such a weapon.

[Luzifer's right hand]

Well, shit. Conceded. There is no evidence of any AQ starkillers besides the Tox Utaat and Soran's weapon. And I'm assuming Starfleet doesn't have the specs for Soran's weapon.

There was a 2nd season DS9 episode where a Federation terraformer reignites a dead star with a protomatter device, said to transmute the heavier elements in the dead star into hydrogen. There was a significant possibility that the experiment could fail and trigger a supernova, as Dax had plans to get their starship out of the system at Warp 9 if necessary. Logically, if the Federation can use protomatter to reignite dead stars and potentially trigger supernovae, they have the capability to develop nova weapons. This would also explain why detecting protomatter in fake-Bashir's shuttle instantly made the crew think "Supernova!" Of course, being the goody-goody Feds, they probably haven't bothered to actually develop such a weapon.

A "possibility" is no proof.
Did the experiment trigger a Supernova? Yes or no?
This experiment is no evidence for supernova technology, unless it trigged a supernova.

You are jumping to conclusions.

[Eframepilot]

Well, shit. Conceded. There is no evidence of any AQ starkillers besides the Tox Utaat and Soran's weapon. And I'm assuming Starfleet doesn't have the specs for Soran's weapon.

There was a 2nd season DS9 episode where a Federation terraformer reignites a dead star with a protomatter device, said to transmute the heavier elements in the dead star into hydrogen. There was a significant possibility that the experiment could fail and trigger a supernova, as Dax had plans to get their starship out of the system at Warp 9 if necessary. Logically, if the Federation can use protomatter to reignite dead stars and potentially trigger supernovae, they have the capability to develop nova weapons. This would also explain why detecting protomatter in fake-Bashir's shuttle instantly made the crew think "Supernova!" Of course, being the goody-goody Feds, they probably haven't bothered to actually develop such a weapon.

A "possibility" is no proof.
Did the experiment trigger a Supernova? Yes or no?
This experiment is no evidence for supernova technology, unless it trigged a supernova.

You are jumping to conclusions.

It's a logical conclusion. The Federation has not directly demonstrated supernova technology, but they can reignite dead stars in such a way that supernovae are definite possibilities. Logically, given the Dominion' star-destroying capability using protomatter devices, the Feds could develop supernova bombs if they really wanted to and spent the necessary time and resources. IOW, it's much more feasible than transwarp or Dyson sphere construction or other crazy supertech.

[Darth Wong]

It's a logical conclusion. The Federation has not directly demonstrated supernova technology, but they can reignite dead stars in such a way that supernovae are definite possibilities.

Supernovae after tens of millions or billions of years, maybe. Immediate supernovae, no. And quite frankly, the line between a huge coronal mass ejection and a supernovae is rather thin in Star Trek. Both look the same, and contrary to popular opinion, a real supernova does not actually blow up the star leaving nothing behind either. It's just a really, really, really big mass ejection.

Logically, given the Dominion' star-destroying capability using protomatter devices, the Feds could develop supernova bombs if they really wanted to and spent the necessary time and resources.

No, that would be a non sequitur. It's like saying that since the US has thermonuclear weapons, that any nation with uranium ore deposits and water must be able to quickly develop thermonuclear weapons of its own.

IOW, it's much more feasible than transwarp or Dyson sphere construction or other crazy supertech.

That's not saying a whole lot.

[Eframepilot]

It's a logical conclusion. The Federation has not directly demonstrated supernova technology, but they can reignite dead stars in such a way that supernovae are definite possibilities.

Supernovae after tens of millions or billions of years, maybe. Immediate supernovae, no. And quite frankly, the line between a huge coronal mass ejection and a supernovae is rather thin in Star Trek. Both look the same, and contrary to popular opinion, a real supernova does not actually blow up the star leaving nothing behind either. It's just a really, really, really big mass ejection.

I'm using "supernova" as shorthand for "star makes big boom". ST:G didn't have supernovae either, just collapsing stars generating planet-shattering subspace(!) shockwaves.

Logically, given the Dominion' star-destroying capability using protomatter devices, the Feds could develop supernova bombs if they really wanted to and spent the necessary time and resources.

No, that would be a non sequitur. It's like saying that since the US has thermonuclear weapons, that any nation with uranium ore deposits and water must be able to quickly develop thermonuclear weapons of its own.

The Federation has used protomatter to reignite stars. In your analogy, this is equivalent to making a functional nuclear reactor. And given Dax's concerns of explosion, protomatter can trigger big booms about as easily as a reactor can melt down.

IOW, it's much more feasible than transwarp or Dyson sphere construction or other crazy supertech.

That's not saying a whole lot.

How about more or less as feasible as redeveloping phase cloaking? The Feds have applied protomatter in a similar way, and a technological peer has the actual article. The Dominion isn't that much more advanced than the Feds.

[Darth Wong]

I'm using "supernova" as shorthand for "star makes big boom". ST:G didn't have supernovae either, just collapsing stars generating planet-shattering subspace(!) shockwaves.

Collapsing impossibly fast, thus indicating that something rather bizarre was going on.

The Federation has used protomatter to reignite stars. In your analogy, this is equivalent to making a functional nuclear reactor.

And since there was a naturally occuring nuclear reactor in Gabon, West Africa approximately 1.7 billion years ago, this does not exactly help your case.

And given Dax's concerns of explosion, protomatter can trigger big booms about as easily as a reactor can melt down.

Big enough to take out a shuttlecraft at close range? Sure. A big enough solar flare will do that too. Do you have a point to make?

How about more or less as feasible as redeveloping phase cloaking? The Feds have applied protomatter in a similar way, and a technological peer has the actual article. The Dominion isn't that much more advanced than the Feds.

You're just repeating your earlier fallacy of assuming that there is no real technological hurdle to overcome. And for that matter, we don't know how violent the Dominion weapon is, since it was never deployed. A sufficiently large coronal mass ejection will scour planets, kill off ships in close proximity, etc. and get the job done, so why do you assume it had to be any more powerful than that?

[Luzifer's right hand]

There was a 2nd season DS9 episode where a Federation terraformer reignites a dead star with a protomatter device, said to transmute the heavier elements in the dead star into hydrogen. There was a significant possibility that the experiment could fail and trigger a supernova, as Dax had plans to get their starship out of the system at Warp 9 if necessary. Logically, if the Federation can use protomatter to reignite dead stars and potentially trigger supernovae, they have the capability to develop nova weapons. This would also explain why detecting protomatter in fake-Bashir's shuttle instantly made the crew think "Supernova!" Of course, being the goody-goody Feds, they probably haven't bothered to actually develop such a weapon.

A "possibility" is no proof.
Did the experiment trigger a Supernova? Yes or no?
This experiment is no evidence for supernova technology, unless it trigged a supernova.

You are jumping to conclusions.

It's a logical conclusion. The Federation has not directly demonstrated supernova technology, but they can reignite dead stars in such a way that supernovae are definite possibilities. Logically, given the Dominion' star-destroying capability using protomatter devices, the Feds could develop supernova bombs if they really wanted to and spent the necessary time and resources. IOW, it's much more feasible than transwarp or Dyson sphere construction or other crazy supertech.

Some scientists belived(before the first test) that it was possiple that an atom-bomb could set the the athomsophere on fire.
I could use your line of reasoning and conclude that the USA has the ability to create a bomb which can set the athomsophere on fire.
Has it ever occurred to you that Dax can err?

[Eframepilot]

I'm using "supernova" as shorthand for "star makes big boom". ST:G didn't have supernovae either, just collapsing stars generating planet-shattering subspace(!) shockwaves.

Collapsing impossibly fast, thus indicating that something rather bizarre was going on.

Of course. The word subspace was present.

The Federation has used protomatter to reignite stars. In your analogy, this is equivalent to making a functional nuclear reactor.

And since there was a naturally occuring nuclear reactor in Gabon, West Africa approximately 1.7 billion years ago, this does not exactly help your case.

How is this relevant? Any nation that can build a functional nuclear reactor is very close to building nuclear weapons. So what if one occured naturally? The one-celled lifeforms near it hadn't built the thing themselves. Likewise, the Federation built a protomatter device to ignite a dead star, with significant concern that it could trigger a massive explosion, analogous to building a controlled nuclear reactor instead of a melting down atomic pile.

And given Dax's concerns of explosion, protomatter can trigger big booms about as easily as a reactor can melt down.

Big enough to take out a shuttlecraft at close range? Sure. A big enough solar flare will do that too. Do you have a point to make?

I don't remember the exact size of the ship they were on, but I believe it was at least Miranda-class, maybe Nebula-class. And Dax wanted to be able to get out of the system at Warp 9. There was a perceived threat to the ship anywhere in the system.

How about more or less as feasible as redeveloping phase cloaking? The Feds have applied protomatter in a similar way, and a technological peer has the actual article. The Dominion isn't that much more advanced than the Feds.

You're just repeating your earlier fallacy of assuming that there is no real technological hurdle to overcome.

Why should we assume such a hurdle exists? The star was completely transformed from dead to active, with a risk of spectacular explosion. Deliberately triggering the explosion should not be too difficult.

And for that matter, we don't know how violent the Dominion weapon is, since it was never deployed. A sufficiently large coronal mass ejection will scour planets, kill off ships in close proximity, etc. and get the job done, so why do you assume it had to be any more powerful than that?

That might be sufficient and in line with what I expect the Federation's device could do. The Dominion device, OTOH, had to trigger an eruption severe enough to destroy fleets of starships millions of kilometers away, at a speed fast enough to keep at least some of them from escaping. It would likely be at least as violent as the shockwave seen in ST:G.

[Eframepilot]

Some scientists belived(before the first test) that it was possiple that an atom-bomb could set the the athomsophere on fire.
I could use your line of reasoning and conclude that the USA has the ability to create a bomb which can set the athomsophere on fire.
Has it ever occurred to you that Dax can err?

She was erring, on the side of caution. But the Dominion made a bomb with the same material that could blow up a star. If the USSR had developed a bomb that could ignite the atmosphere, the scientists' concerns would have been justified, if exaggerated, and the building of such a bomb would be within the US's capability as well.

[Luzifer's right hand]

Some scientists belived(before the first test) that it was possiple that an atom-bomb could set the the athomsophere on fire.
I could use your line of reasoning and conclude that the USA has the ability to create a bomb which can set the athomsophere on fire.
Has it ever occurred to you that Dax can err?

She was erring, on the side of caution. But the Dominion made a bomb with the same material that could blow up a star. If the USSR had developed a bomb that could ignite the atmosphere, the scientists' concerns would have been justified, if exaggerated, and the building of such a bomb would be within the US's capability as well.

The dominion made a bomb with 3 components (tekacite, trilithium, and protomatter). It was no pure protomatter bomb.

[Darth Wong]

Of course. The word subspace was present.

Which only means that they could not possibly understand what was happening or how to reliably duplicate it.

And since there was a naturally occuring nuclear reactor in Gabon, West Africa approximately 1.7 billion years ago, this does not exactly help your case.

How is this relevant? Any nation that can build a functional nuclear reactor is very close to building nuclear weapons. So what if one occured naturally?

Are you always this much of a moron? If one occurred naturally, then one obviously does not need that much technological advancement to build one! The trick is to make it commercially viable, not just to make it work, you idiot. The one in Oklo worked, and it was made by mindless geological processes.

The one-celled lifeforms near it hadn't built the thing themselves. Likewise, the Federation built a protomatter device to ignite a dead star, with significant concern that it could trigger a massive explosion, analogous to building a controlled nuclear reactor instead of a melting down atomic pile.

The Gabon reactor ran for ten thousand years in a controlled fashion, you idiot. It did not "melt down". Your abject ignorance of basic science betrays you yet again.

I don't remember the exact size of the ship they were on, but I believe it was at least Miranda-class, maybe Nebula-class. And Dax wanted to be able to get out of the system at Warp 9. There was a perceived threat to the ship anywhere in the system.

And there was a perceived threat to the Excelsior light-years away from Praxis, which barely took off the ozone layer from Quo'Nos. So what?

Why should we assume such a hurdle exists?

Why should we assume it's any more difficult to ignite fusion reactions at many orders of magnitude greater rate? Gee, let me think ...

The star was completely transformed from dead to active, with a risk of spectacular explosion. Deliberately triggering the explosion should not be too difficult.

And how great was this risk? How spectacular was the explosion? You don't know; you're just arguing from ignorance in order to cover up the fact that you don't really have any evidence to back up your position.

That might be sufficient and in line with what I expect the Federation's device could do. The Dominion device, OTOH, had to trigger an eruption severe enough to destroy fleets of starships millions of kilometers away, at a speed fast enough to keep at least some of them from escaping. It would likely be at least as violent as the shockwave seen in ST:G.

And the Excelsior was nearly trashed by a "subspace shockwave" which barely took the ozone layer off a neighbouring planet. I'm not impressed by your "if it's a threat to a starship, it must be a gigantic super-powerful supernova" logic, since it is easily disproven through precedent.

[HRogge]

NO, it WAS an active hydrogen star. The star, however, was on the verge of death. They fired the torpedoes into the star's core (with shielding that survived that far) and detonated them. Then the star started performing helium fusion instead of hydrogen fusion for about thirty seconds, before it became unstable and blew up.

So it's just TOTAL bullshit, most likely a freak accident. standard hydrogen stars ( even at the end of their life ) cannot go nova at all. Even if you start helium fusion for a moment you cannot get a nova.

Unless there is any evidence that this process would work on any mainsequence star ( at the end of their life, shortly before they become a red giant ), it's one of these "one of a kind, will not happen again" accidents.

[Eframepilot]

Are you always this much of a moron? If one occurred naturally, then one obviously does not need that much technological advancement to build one! The trick is to make it commercially viable, not just to make it work, you idiot. The one in Oklo worked, and it was made by mindless geological processes.

Well alrighty then. Making a protomatter device to reignite a dead star is analogous to making a commercially viable nuclear reactor, which is a very short step away from building a nuclear weapon. The first artificial atomic pile was built as a direct step to the first nuclear weapon, so the analogy still holds.

The one-celled lifeforms near it hadn't built the thing themselves. Likewise, the Federation built a protomatter device to ignite a dead star, with significant concern that it could trigger a massive explosion, analogous to building a controlled nuclear reactor instead of a melting down atomic pile.

The Gabon reactor ran for ten thousand years in a controlled fashion, you idiot. It did not "melt down". Your abject ignorance of basic science betrays you yet again.

Fool. The melting down pile is compared to the dead star exploding, not the Gabon reactor.

And there was a perceived threat to the Excelsior light-years away from Praxis, which barely took off the ozone layer from Quo'Nos. So what?

All right. Explosions in Trek produce too many bizarre effects to make accurate extrapolations, so we don't know what the Dominion bomb would have done. But considering the Federation's familiarity with protomatter devices and stellar ignition, they could probably duplicate the Dominion bomb in a relatively short amount of time.

[Darth Wong]

Well alrighty then. Making a protomatter device to reignite a dead star is analogous to making a commercially viable nuclear reactor, which is a very short step away from building a nuclear weapon.

Wrong. It is analogous to making a nuclear pile, which is a few billion years away from building a nuclear weapon, dumb-ass. You don't even know if this re-ignited star stayed that way. Need I remind you of how transient the Genesis device's effects turned out to be?

The first artificial atomic pile was built as a direct step to the first nuclear weapon, so the analogy still holds.

The first atomic pile occurred naturally, you idiot.

Fool. The melting down pile is compared to the dead star exploding, not the Gabon reactor.

Oh, I guess I should have realized that your comparison was EVEN MORE FUCKING STUPID than I initially thought. You thought that somehow, (nuclear reactor:core meltdown) = (ignition of exothermal rection:dozens of orders of magnitude further increase in power).

Do you know how nuclear reactors work? Of course not; why do I even bother asking? A meltdown would theoretically occurs when the cooling system fails. There is no sudden multiple order-of-magnitude spike in power output, you fucking moron. You're basically acting as though a nuclear reactor might blow up like a nuclear bomb, and what I've been trying to explain to you is that a functioning nuclear reactor is very easy to make, as they can even occur naturally.

All right. Explosions in Trek produce too many bizarre effects to make accurate extrapolations, so we don't know what the Dominion bomb would have done.

Nor we do know that Dax's fears were justified, nor do we know much of anything except that you don't know shit about nuclear physics or engineering and that you're too fucking arrogant to admit it.

But considering the Federation's familiarity with protomatter devices and stellar ignition, they could probably duplicate the Dominion bomb in a relatively short amount of time.

Ah yes, so in the end, you prove this thesis of yours by simply ... saying that it's true. Brilliant argument