Why doesn't the Borg ever assimilate the Federation?

[Robert Walper]

They destroyed "hundreds of our worlds" but only "millions of drones"?

This indicates Borg planets could be highly efficient and require relatively small populations, or that the Borg drone casualties were kept low.

8 planets destroyed and only 4 million Borg eliminated.

To assume that every borg world is inhabited by large numbers of drones is wrong.

I don't assume every Borg world is heavily populated. Just the major ones.

The only Borg planet we know about with large numbers of drones on it was assimilated earth.

Which undoubtedly would be classified as a major planet within the Borg's infrastructure.

And you assume that most of the vessels destroyed are cubes, it's much more likely that many small ships with only a few hundred or thousend drones on board are included.

Actually, the Borg were witnessed to engage Species 8472 with nothing but cubes. Other vessels may have been involved, but since we never saw any whatsoever, it would seem that their participation was quite minor or non-existent.

It's quite possible that most Borg planets are small outposts with only a few hundredthousand drones on them.

You're attempting to assert that if Borg planets have relatively low populations, they must be "outposts" as opposed to efficient planetary infrastructures.

This conclusion is supportede by the fact that only millions of drones died when hundreds of planets were destroed.

Meaning not all the planets need be heavily populated, and the Borg could very well have evacuated large portions of planetary populations to prevent them from being destroyed.

Borg cubes can be effectively manned with as few as five thousand Borg, so even a fleet up to a thousand cubes being destroyed would only toll several millions dead Borg.

Please provide evidence for your claim that there are large numbers of Borg drones outside the Unicomplex.

The evidence we have to work with is the observed assimilated Earth in ST:FC. Going by this, I've concluded that major Borg worlds have populations numbering in the billions.

[Robert Walper]

They destroyed "hundreds of our worlds" but only "millions of drones"?

Perhaps it meant drones lost aboard destroyed Cubes.

I'd submit that seems extremely unlikely.

But I think you are correct. Many Borg planets are lightly populated.

Possibly. This would suggest their planetary infrastructures are highly efficient. However, there is no reason to assume all Borg planets are lightly populated, and the assimilated Earth in ST:FC clearly showed Borg worlds can have large populations.

[Luzifer's right hand]

snip

I said is possible that these planets are only outposts. I never used the word "must". I think this is called a "straw man"

You are trying to prove that these quotes from Voyager episodes are a proof of the vast capabilities of the Borg.
The burden of proof is on your side.

Please provide evidence that these planets had large infrastructures or that the Borg evacuated large portions of planetary populations.
And provide evidence that small borg vessels like spheres and scout ships retreated as soon as 8472 attacked a Borg system.
I too belive that their participation was quite minor(the 8472 ships destroyed them).

The evidence we have to work with is the observed assimilated Earth in ST:FC. Going by this, I've concluded that major Borg worlds have populations numbering in the billions.

A single planet in an alternative time-line, you are fast with your conclusions.

[Rogue 9]

A single planet in an alternative time-line, you are fast with your conclusions.

But there's no reason for the Borg to operate differently. That alternate timeline requires that the Borg Queen from the same timeline as the one Voyager was in establish and lead the Borg assimilation of Earth, and there is no reason why she'd run things differently.

[SirNitram]

An odd little thought. Maybe they don't hit the Federation because the Federation(And, by necessity of the medium we see the Trek universe through, us) has been duped. Big time.

Facts, learned from the Borg, not anywhere else:
Scorpion:
Species 8472 has attacked the Borg around a dozen times over the past 5 months, which averages to less than one attack every 1½ weeks.

Correction. Tuvok stated that Species 8472 have attacked the Borg, quote "on at least a dozen occasions". This suggests a lower limit on the number of times the Borg and Species 8472 had major confrontations.

And without evidence of a higher number of attacks, a perfectly sufficient number to use.

The Borg expected to be defeated in another few weeks at this rate.

Borg VoiceOver from the second part:

Species 8472 has penetrated Matrix 010, Grid 19. 8 planets destroyed. 312 vessels disabled. Four million six hundred twenty one Borg eliminated. We must seize control of the Alpha Quadrant vessel and take it into the alien realm.

We'll give this every peice of leniency and give room we can.

The following assumptions made:

The Borg statements during Scorpion are reliable.

The bodycount is per attack not total.

Additonal evidence obviously suggests the only logical conclusion is that this in fact the casualty report from only that single battle. Eight planets were destroyed. But according to Seven of Nine in STVOY "Prey", Species 8472 destroyed hundreds of worlds. This would suggest a minimum of 200 planets destroyed in total, and in all likelyhood similar to the observed planetary destruction witnessed in STVOY "Scorpion".

Perfectly possible from the numbers derived.

The attack tempo doesn't change.

You're making the assumption that the battle report you mentioned was the largest scale battle to date. This assumption is flawed based upon evidence from STVOY "Prey" which I specified. The Borg's own behavior (ie: negotiating with Voyager) suggests they had already suffered major casualties, to the point where they would be willing to negotiate which they do not typically do. One could even easily argue the fleet numbers might have been low due to previous damage done by Species 8472.

Yes, yes I am assuming that the Species isn't stepping things up massively. Why do I do this? I have no evidence that they do. Without evidence, assuming they are increasing their attack tempo is something called an 'unsupported assumption'.

That by 'Defeated' the Borg will half lost half their holdings and be in a sufficient bind that other races will smell blood.

That 'a few weeks' is 10 weeks or so, enough time for eight more attacks.

You're ignoring the possibility that Species 8472 may have been stepping up the frequency of their attacks. This would hardly be surprising for a enemy that is currently winning.

No evidence for it, therefore I will not assume such.

By these estimations, the Borg control (8 worlds x 20 attacks x 2..) 320 worlds(Habitable? Presumably),

According to the Borg, they control thousands of worlds and thousands of species(ref ST:FC, STVOY "Scorpion"). I see absolutely no evidence to contradict this assertion on their part.

Flat. Out. Lie. Chakotay makes that statement:

CHAKOTAY: Even if we do somehow negotiate an exchange, how long will they keep up their end of the bargain? It could take months to cross Borg territory. We'd be facing thousands of ships. Millions of vessels.

Do not lie to me, Walper. Especially when it's so easily shown to be what it is.

In addition, the whole point of this thought exercise is that the Borg would have been lying to the humans outside of Scorpion, projecting themselves as a larger threat than they are.

(312 ships x 20 attacks x2..) ~12,000 ships, and somewhat less than 2 billion Drones.

Direct sensor scans of the Borg unicomplex detected trillions of Borg. This doesn't count their planetary populations, and Earth(when it was assimilated in an alternate timeline) numbered up to nine billion alone. Multiply that by thousands, and your number is grossly inaccurate, never mind the Unicomplex.

Except the only evidence for 'thousands' is Chakotay's rambling, not anything from the Borg. Again, don't lie.

As for the Unicomplex, yes, that population figure it huge. But the fact remains that even without these calc's, the Unicomplex holds more Borg than 8 planets, why not more Borg than all their planets?

Keep in mind, this isn't based off of Joe Schmoe's dialogue in the Enterprise millions of miles from the Borg. This is the Borg themselves.

Humanity got duped bad.

Seriously, I fail to see your point. Frankly, none of your conjecture(based solely upon one piece of badly interpreted dialogue) has any factual or believeable basis, and is refuted by multiple sources of objective data.

Objective data? No, you have Chakotay making an off-the-cuff comment vs. the Borg's rational analysis of their own situation. Don't be full of shit, Walper.

[SirNitram]

Just for kicks, the quote from Prey about destruction in the 8472 - Borg war was:

Tuvok: "Since species 8472 invaded the ship you've become increasingly agitated"

Seven: "They were the only species to offer true resistance to the Borg. They destroyed millions of drones hundreds of our worlds. I have reason to be agitated."

I have to wonder how this hurts my cause. Destroying 'hundreds' of worlds to a power with 320 worlds is dealing a collosal blow. Destroying 'millions' of drones if your population is in the billions outside the Unicomplex and a few rich capital worlds is a major blow. Which fits perfectly with Seven's sentiment. So how does this hurt my argument?

[Luzifer's right hand]

A single planet in an alternative time-line, you are fast with your conclusions.

But there's no reason for the Borg to operate differently. That alternate timeline requires that the Borg Queen from the same timeline as the one Voyager was in establish and lead the Borg assimilation of Earth, and there is no reason why she'd run things differently.

The low casualties on the Borg side suggest that planets with billions of drones are uncommon.
But It seem people like to assume things, we could also assume that earth is the HQ of the Borg in the Alpha Quadrant in the alternative time-line.
We have no evidence that there are more than a few capital worlds.

[El Moose Monstero]

According to the Borg, they control thousands of worlds and thousands of species(ref ST:FC, STVOY "Scorpion"). I see absolutely no evidence to contradict this assertion on their part.

Flat. Out. Lie. Chakotay makes that statement:

CHAKOTAY: Even if we do somehow negotiate an exchange, how long will they keep up their end of the bargain? It could take months to cross Borg territory. We'd be facing thousands of ships. Millions of vessels.

Do not lie to me, Walper. Especially when it's so easily shown to be what it is.

In addition, the whole point of this thought exercise is that the Borg would have been lying to the humans outside of Scorpion, projecting themselves as a larger threat than they are.

The Queen says it in First Contact too, she says:

"Brave words, I've heard them before, from thousands of species across thousands of worlds, since long before you were created. But now they are all Borg."

To Data on the assimilation table.


Admittedly there is more than one explanation for that, she could have been bragging, the Borg could be ancient and have been assimilating planets for ages, and she's spanning borg history as well.

[SirNitram]

The Queen says it in First Contact too, she says:

"Brave words, I've heard them before, from thousands of species across thousands of worlds, since long before you were created. But now they are all Borg."

To Data on the assimilation table.


Admittedly there is more than one explanation for that, she could have been bragging, the Borg could be ancient and have been assimilating planets for ages, and she's spanning borg history as well.

Or flat out lying. Data has no way of knowing if it's true or not, and the Queen's purpose is obviously intimidation. Hell, the quote may even be literally true: Assimilating a species from a planet does not necessarily mean that planet is now part of your collection.

[Robert Walper]

An odd little thought. Maybe they don't hit the Federation because the Federation(And, by necessity of the medium we see the Trek universe through, us) has been duped. Big time.

Facts, learned from the Borg, not anywhere else:
Scorpion:
Species 8472 has attacked the Borg around a dozen times over the past 5 months, which averages to less than one attack every 1½ weeks.

Correction. Tuvok stated that Species 8472 have attacked the Borg, quote "on at least a dozen occasions". This suggests a lower limit on the number of times the Borg and Species 8472 had major confrontations.

And without evidence of a higher number of attacks, a perfectly sufficient number to use.

Yes. But your "around a dozen times" has a different overall meaning then "at least a dozen times". Your statement inferred a limit which was not accurate. In other words, the number of attacks in question is a lower limit. It could be easily higher, possibly much higher if Tuvok was mistaken.

Yes, yes I am assuming that the Species isn't stepping things up massively. Why do I do this? I have no evidence that they do. Without evidence, assuming they are increasing their attack tempo is something called an 'unsupported assumption'.

I pointed out a possibility you ignored. You seem to suffer from an excessive inclination to intentionally limit possibilities. In this case, your goal being to make the Borg look as weak and small as possible. Using your logic, only one Borg probe class vessel has ever been witnessed. Since we've never seen or heard of others, none others exist.

You're ignoring the possibility that Species 8472 may have been stepping up the frequency of their attacks. This would hardly be surprising for a enemy that is currently winning.

No evidence for it, therefore I will not assume such.

You must misunderstand the application of the term "possibility". I suggest investing in a dictionary.

According to the Borg, they control thousands of worlds and thousands of species(ref ST:FC, STVOY "Scorpion"). I see absolutely no evidence to contradict this assertion on their part.

Flat. Out. Lie. Chakotay makes that statement:

CHAKOTAY: Even if we do somehow negotiate an exchange, how long will they keep up their end of the bargain? It could take months to cross Borg territory. We'd be facing thousands of ships. Millions of vessels.

Do not lie to me, Walper. Especially when it's so easily shown to be what it is.

Don't try and bullshit me either. The Borg Queen from ST:FC, quote:

"Brave words. I've heard them before. From thousands of species across thousands of worlds. Now...they are all Borg."

Statement from the Borg right there that they have thousands of world and species under their control.

In addition, the whole point of this thought exercise is that the Borg would have been lying to the humans outside of Scorpion, projecting themselves as a larger threat than they are.

Well, if we're going to employ your thought exercise of "anything said or suggesting the Borg have vast resources at their disposal is a lie", I can see your point. Of course, you can make some unique assertions about any power by selectively chosing what is a lie and what isn't.

Direct sensor scans of the Borg unicomplex detected trillions of Borg. This doesn't count their planetary populations, and Earth(when it was assimilated in an alternate timeline) numbered up to nine billion alone. Multiply that by thousands, and your number is grossly inaccurate, never mind the Unicomplex.

Except the only evidence for 'thousands' is Chakotay's rambling, not anything from the Borg. Again, don't lie.

I didn't lie, dumbass. ST:FC specfically had the Borg stating they have assimilated thousands of species and thousands of worlds. And the only Borg world we ever got population count on had billions. Oh wait, I bet the sensors were lying too, huh?

As for the Unicomplex, yes, that population figure it huge. But the fact remains that even without these calc's, the Unicomplex holds more Borg than 8 planets, why not more Borg than all their planets?

I see. So because we have a casualty count, you assume those were all the drones and ships present? Cute. I suppose we can take a casualty count from any battle, say in WW2, and conclude from those numbers that is the total number of units that took place in said battle?

Seriously, I fail to see your point. Frankly, none of your conjecture(based solely upon one piece of badly interpreted dialogue) has any factual or believeable basis, and is refuted by multiple sources of objective data.

Objective data? No, you have Chakotay making an off-the-cuff comment vs. the Borg's rational analysis of their own situation. Don't be full of shit, Walper.

You're actually full of shit obviously. The Borg have canonly stated they have thousands of species and thousands of worlds under their control.

Naturally of course, your thought excercise is intented to dispute any such statement by the Borg with "oh, they're lying".

[SirNitram]

Correction. Tuvok stated that Species 8472 have attacked the Borg, quote "on at least a dozen occasions". This suggests a lower limit on the number of times the Borg and Species 8472 had major confrontations.

And without evidence of a higher number of attacks, a perfectly sufficient number to use.

Yes. But your "around a dozen times" has a different overall meaning then "at least a dozen times". Your statement inferred a limit which was not accurate. In other words, the number of attacks in question is a lower limit. It could be easily higher, possibly much higher if Tuvok was mistaken.

Yet you have no offer of proof it is substantially bigger. Yasee, Robert, objective analysis uses evidence. The problem is, you lack evidence.

Yes, yes I am assuming that the Species isn't stepping things up massively. Why do I do this? I have no evidence that they do. Without evidence, assuming they are increasing their attack tempo is something called an 'unsupported assumption'.

I pointed out a possibility you ignored. You seem to suffer from an excessive inclination to intentionally limit possibilities. In this case, your goal being to make the Borg look as weak and small as possible. Using your logic, only one Borg probe class vessel has ever been witnessed. Since we've never seen or heard of others, none others exist.

Yea, Parsimony is a bitch, isn't it, intentionally limiting our possibilities to what has evidence. Do you have any evidence?

You're ignoring the possibility that Species 8472 may have been stepping up the frequency of their attacks. This would hardly be surprising for a enemy that is currently winning.

No evidence for it, therefore I will not assume such.

You must misunderstand the application of the term "possibility". I suggest investing in a dictionary.

You must misunderstand the concept of Parsimony. I recommend a first year science course.

According to the Borg, they control thousands of worlds and thousands of species(ref ST:FC, STVOY "Scorpion"). I see absolutely no evidence to contradict this assertion on their part.

Flat. Out. Lie. Chakotay makes that statement:

CHAKOTAY: Even if we do somehow negotiate an exchange, how long will they keep up their end of the bargain? It could take months to cross Borg territory. We'd be facing thousands of ships. Millions of vessels.

Do not lie to me, Walper. Especially when it's so easily shown to be what it is.

Don't try and bullshit me either. The Borg Queen from ST:FC, quote:

"Brave words. I've heard them before. From thousands of species across thousands of worlds. Now...they are all Borg."

Statement from the Borg right there that they have thousands of world and species under their control.

Lying is bad, Robert. No where in that quote does it say the Borg control thousands of worlds, just that they've assimilated species from thousands of worlds. Or are you going to handwave away all those colonies which simply vanished from their worlds, and claim those worlds are now part of the Collective?

In addition, the whole point of this thought exercise is that the Borg would have been lying to the humans outside of Scorpion, projecting themselves as a larger threat than they are.

Well, if we're going to employ your thought exercise of "anything said or suggesting the Borg have vast resources at their disposal is a lie", I can see your point. Of course, you can make some unique assertions about any power by selectively chosing what is a lie and what isn't.

Thank you for an Appeal To Motive fallacy. I was wondering when we would move beyond the traditional Unsupported Assumptions and Outright Lies. This may shock you, but I consider the Borg analysizing their own situation in Scorpion more reliable than their boasting.

Direct sensor scans of the Borg unicomplex detected trillions of Borg. This doesn't count their planetary populations, and Earth(when it was assimilated in an alternate timeline) numbered up to nine billion alone. Multiply that by thousands, and your number is grossly inaccurate, never mind the Unicomplex.

Except the only evidence for 'thousands' is Chakotay's rambling, not anything from the Borg. Again, don't lie.

I didn't lie, dumbass. ST:FC specfically had the Borg stating they have assimilated thousands of species and thousands of worlds. And the only Borg world we ever got population count on had billions. Oh wait, I bet the sensors were lying too, huh?

If the post I made wasn't clear enough for your addled brain, I have conceeded I may be quite wrong on the Drone numbers. I've already countered the quote, of course, but this won't stop you.

As for the Unicomplex, yes, that population figure it huge. But the fact remains that even without these calc's, the Unicomplex holds more Borg than 8 planets, why not more Borg than all their planets?

I see. So because we have a casualty count, you assume those were all the drones and ships present? Cute. I suppose we can take a casualty count from any battle, say in WW2, and conclude from those numbers that is the total number of units that took place in said battle?

No, Robert. Kindly stop being retarded for a minute. Scorpion shows us the Borg beleive they will lose at their current rate of attrition. I'm even being generous and not considering 'lose' to equal 'be completely out of ships, worlds, and drones'. No where in this do I have to know the total shipcount of an action, only the current rate of attrition, which the VO gives us.

Seriously, I fail to see your point. Frankly, none of your conjecture(based solely upon one piece of badly interpreted dialogue) has any factual or believeable basis, and is refuted by multiple sources of objective data.

Objective data? No, you have Chakotay making an off-the-cuff comment vs. the Borg's rational analysis of their own situation. Don't be full of shit, Walper.

You're actually full of shit obviously. The Borg have canonly stated they have thousands of species and thousands of worlds under their control.

No. They have stated they have assimilated species from thousands of worlds. They have never stated they control thousands of worlds. Lying is bad, Robert.

Naturally of course, your thought excercise is intented to dispute any such statement by the Borg with "oh, they're lying".

Appeal To Motive fallacy.

[Robert Walper]

Yes. But your "around a dozen times" has a different overall meaning then "at least a dozen times". Your statement inferred a limit which was not accurate. In other words, the number of attacks in question is a lower limit. It could be easily higher, possibly much higher if Tuvok was mistaken.

Yet you have no offer of proof it is substantially bigger. Yasee, Robert, objective analysis uses evidence. The problem is, you lack evidence.

Not at all. As I stated before, Seven of Nine made it clear the Borg lost hundreds of world. Your numbers don't add up. You're "generous" estimation of 20 attacks total doesn't even reach the absolute minimum(ie: 200) number of planets Seven of Nine stated Species 8472 destroyed, which was hundreds.

Lying is bad, Robert. No where in that quote does it say the Borg control thousands of worlds, just that they've assimilated species from thousands of worlds. Or are you going to handwave away all those colonies which simply vanished from their worlds, and claim those worlds are now part of the Collective?

You take a few examples of colonies being scooped up by the Borg and assimilated, and seriously suggest this is all they do? You seriously expect me to believe the Borg do not assimilate entire civilizations, adding planets and resources to their existing infrastructure?

This may shock you, but I consider the Borg analysizing their own situation in Scorpion more reliable than their boasting.

And you have evidence they boost about themselves I suppose, as opposed to just assuming they are?

I see. So because we have a casualty count, you assume those were all the drones and ships present? Cute. I suppose we can take a casualty count from any battle, say in WW2, and conclude from those numbers that is the total number of units that took place in said battle?

No, Robert. Kindly stop being retarded for a minute. Scorpion shows us the Borg beleive they will lose at their current rate of attrition.

And your mistake is assuming the the rate of loss is unchanging, and that the VO battle report was the largest scale battle to date(I assume we can agree it was in all likelyhood last major one). Obviously this is not the case, since the Borg lost hundreds of planets to Species 8472. Even with your "generous" calculations, your number falls significantly short of the absolute minimum number of planets Seven stated were destroyed. Hundreds could account for even close to two thousand planets destroyed.

I'm even being generous and not considering 'lose' to equal 'be completely out of ships, worlds, and drones'.

I would hardly consider that generous. The Borg losing the war would only require the lose of all their primary defenses(ie: ships). Since the Borg have trillions of Borg on hand, and their losses amounted to only millions, obviously their war projections did not include available drones, and in all likelyhood planets either.

No where in this do I have to know the total shipcount of an action, only the current rate of attrition, which the VO gives us.

Unfortunately, your "generously estimated" rate of attrition is significantly inadaquate to account for the known losses the Borg took. In this case, planets, which they lost hundreds of. Your number crunching doesn't even meet the bare minimum lower limit(ie: 200).

No. They have stated they have assimilated species from thousands of worlds. They have never stated they control thousands of worlds. Lying is bad, Robert.

You're right...the Borg Queen in ST:FC did not directly state the Borg control thousands of worlds. A possible misinterpretation on my part.

[Luzifer's right hand]

You take a few examples of colonies being scooped up by the Borg and assimilated, and seriously suggest this is all they do? You seriously expect me to believe the Borg do not assimilate entire civilizations, adding planets and resources to their existing infrastructure?

The Borg destroyed colonies near the neutral zone.
The destruction the El-Aurian civilization.
The destruction of an outpost in "best of both worlds".
The Voyager crew found a dead Borg drone on a planet with an destroyed
civilization. And they found an asteroid colony once, destroyed with Borg
weapons IIRC.

There is no evidence that the Borg assimilate entire civilizations.
It seems they destroy dangerous civilizations, and when they assimilate a civilization it's more like foraging than like conquest.

[SirNitram]

Yes. But your "around a dozen times" has a different overall meaning then "at least a dozen times". Your statement inferred a limit which was not accurate. In other words, the number of attacks in question is a lower limit. It could be easily higher, possibly much higher if Tuvok was mistaken.

Yet you have no offer of proof it is substantially bigger. Yasee, Robert, objective analysis uses evidence. The problem is, you lack evidence.

Not at all. As I stated before, Seven of Nine made it clear the Borg lost hundreds of world. Your numbers don't add up. You're "generous" estimation of 20 attacks total doesn't even reach the absolute minimum(ie: 200) number of planets Seven of Nine stated Species 8472 destroyed, which was hundreds.

So, we are to assume that the Borg talking amongst themselves are less accurate than Seven talking to the crew of Voyager? I like how you try and pretend there's something wrong with taking the Collective to be intelligent enough to be correct in assessing their own doom.

Lying is bad, Robert. No where in that quote does it say the Borg control thousands of worlds, just that they've assimilated species from thousands of worlds. Or are you going to handwave away all those colonies which simply vanished from their worlds, and claim those worlds are now part of the Collective?

You take a few examples of colonies being scooped up by the Borg and assimilated, and seriously suggest this is all they do? You seriously expect me to believe the Borg do not assimilate entire civilizations, adding planets and resources to their existing infrastructure?

Wow, Black/White Fallacy. No, Robert. I offer it as an example of how one can assimilate species from thousands of worlds without controlling thousands of worlds.

This may shock you, but I consider the Borg analysizing their own situation in Scorpion more reliable than their boasting.

And you have evidence they boost about themselves I suppose, as opposed to just assuming they are?

I'm sorry, am I supposed to take the Queen trying to scare Data as perfectly factual when it contradicts the Collective, talking to itself, on it's impending doom? Are you completely stupid?

I see. So because we have a casualty count, you assume those were all the drones and ships present? Cute. I suppose we can take a casualty count from any battle, say in WW2, and conclude from those numbers that is the total number of units that took place in said battle?

No, Robert. Kindly stop being retarded for a minute. Scorpion shows us the Borg beleive they will lose at their current rate of attrition.

And your mistake is assuming the the rate of loss is unchanging, and that the VO battle report was the largest scale battle to date(I assume we can agree it was in all likelyhood last major one). Obviously this is not the case, since the Borg lost hundreds of planets to Species 8472. Even with your "generous" calculations, your number falls significantly short of the absolute minimum number of planets Seven stated were destroyed. Hundreds could account for even close to two thousand planets destroyed.

I love this. Bald, unsupported assumptions, one after another. Especially in the 'Assuming this attack was the worst', bit. If you knew math, you'd realize I assumed it was a perfectly average attack. You keep trying to make me look unreasonable, but it keeps failing. I especially like how you try and artificially inflate 'hundreds' of worlds into thousands, in your desperate, flailing attempt to gain credibility. But I repeat as above: Without proof they were stepping up the attack tempo, either in destruction or pace, there is no reason to assume they do. So sorry it smashes your dreams of the Borg being uber, but it's canon, and anyone thinking logically will see that boasting done in interrogation for intimidation purposes is not as reliable as self-assessment of a threat.

I'm even being generous and not considering 'lose' to equal 'be completely out of ships, worlds, and drones'.

I would hardly consider that generous. The Borg losing the war would only require the lose of all their primary defenses(ie: ships). Since the Borg have trillions of Borg on hand, and their losses amounted to only millions, obviously their war projections did not include available drones, and in all likelyhood planets either.

I will agree on the drones, but claiming planets don't matter is a load of stupidity fit only to flush into the HoS.

No where in this do I have to know the total shipcount of an action, only the current rate of attrition, which the VO gives us.

Unfortunately, your "generously estimated" rate of attrition is significantly inadaquate to account for the known losses the Borg took. In this case, planets, which they lost hundreds of. Your number crunching doesn't even meet the bare minimum lower limit(ie: 200).

I consider the Borg self-assessment more accurate then Seven trying to impress the need for caution on Voyager. I'm sorry you dislike what the Borg Collective itself says, and that it doesn't fit your ideals.

No. They have stated they have assimilated species from thousands of worlds. They have never stated they control thousands of worlds. Lying is bad, Robert.

You're right...the Borg Queen in ST:FC did not directly state the Borg control thousands of worlds. A possible misinterpretation on my part.

Good, concession accepted on this point.

[Robert Walper]

You take a few examples of colonies being scooped up by the Borg and assimilated, and seriously suggest this is all they do? You seriously expect me to believe the Borg do not assimilate entire civilizations, adding planets and resources to their existing infrastructure?

The Borg destroyed colonies near the neutral zone.

This does not constitute evidence the Borg do not assimilate civilizations.

The destruction the El-Aurian civilization.

Guinan said the Borg "destroyed" her people. Assimilating her species and incorperating their resources into the Collective would easily qualify as "destroying" her race in her eyes, since they are no longer "El-Aurians", but "Borg".

The destruction of an outpost in "best of both worlds".

Which was a prelude to the Borg cube making it's assault on the Federation. A civilization. That they were going to assimilate.

The Voyager crew found a dead Borg drone on a planet with an destroyed
civilization.

STVOY "Blood Fever". Again, how does this constitute evidence the Borg do not assimilate entire civilizations? No one is asserting the Borg incorperate every single planet or target they attack into their Collective.

And they found an asteroid colony once, destroyed with Borg
weapons IIRC.

STVOY "Unimatrix Zero". Yes, another example the Borg attacking a target. What, you think that species entire civilization was on that asteroid?

*There is no evidence that the Borg assimilate entire civilizations.*

I refer you to STVOY "Hope and Fear", where the Borg deployed hundreds of cubes to assimilate species 116. According to Arturis, only twenty thousand of his people escaped, and his entire civilization is now inside Borg space.

It seems they destroy dangerous civilizations, and *when they assimilate a civilization* it's more like foraging than like conquest.

Note where I placed the stars, which is to point out how you're contradicting yourself.

[Luzifer's right hand]

the key word is "entire" including planets.

[Luzifer's right hand]

I refer you to STVOY "Hope and Fear", where the Borg deployed hundreds of cubes to assimilate species 116. According to Arturis, only twenty thousand of his people escaped, and his entire civilization is now inside Borg space.

Please provide evidence for your claim that the Borg have infrastructure on the planets formerly controlled by 116.
It proves nothing that there were cubes in the former territory of 116.
The enterprise found a planet with a destroyed civilization when they encountered the Borg for the first time. There was a cube close to the system.

edit: Btw: The burden of proof is on your side! You need to provide evidence that the Borg assimilate entire civilizations(including planets).
My English is not very good but I understand the difference between foraging and conquest. Do you?

[Robert Walper]

Not at all. As I stated before, Seven of Nine made it clear the Borg lost hundreds of world. Your numbers don't add up. You're "generous" estimation of 20 attacks total doesn't even reach the absolute minimum(ie: 200) number of planets Seven of Nine stated Species 8472 destroyed, which was hundreds.

So, we are to assume that the Borg talking amongst themselves are less accurate than Seven talking to the crew of Voyager? I like how you try and pretend there's something wrong with taking the Collective to be intelligent enough to be correct in assessing their own doom.

You're going to have to explain how Seven's statement and the Borg VO conflict with eachother. Seven's statement and the Collective's VO are easily compatible. It's your premise and resulting math against Seven's statement that is not compatible.

You take a few examples of colonies being scooped up by the Borg and assimilated, and seriously suggest this is all they do? You seriously expect me to believe the Borg do not assimilate entire civilizations, adding planets and resources to their existing infrastructure?

Wow, Black/White Fallacy. No, Robert. I offer it as an example of how one can assimilate species from thousands of worlds without controlling thousands of worlds.

I'd freely admit that it's possible the Borg could assimilate thousands of species without controlling thousands of worlds.

And you have evidence they boost about themselves I suppose, as opposed to just assuming they are?

I'm sorry, am I supposed to take the Queen trying to scare Data as perfectly factual when it contradicts the Collective, talking to itself, on it's impending doom? Are you completely stupid?

I don't see how the Queen's statement contradicts the Collective's VO or Seven's statement. All I see is Seven's statement contradicting your submitted premise and resulting math.

And your mistake is assuming the the rate of loss is unchanging, and that the VO battle report was the largest scale battle to date(I assume we can agree it was in all likelyhood last major one). Obviously this is not the case, since the Borg lost hundreds of planets to Species 8472. Even with your "generous" calculations, your number falls significantly short of the absolute minimum number of planets Seven stated were destroyed. Hundreds could account for even close to two thousand planets destroyed.

I love this. Bald, unsupported assumptions, one after another. Especially in the 'Assuming this attack was the worst', bit. If you knew math, you'd realize I assumed it was a perfectly average attack.

Which is obviously incorrect. Even your twenty "total" attacks using this "average" casualty count falls signficantly short of the damage Seven stated Species 8472 did. Obviously this attack was smaller than the other major conflicts the Borg and Species 8472 had, or there were significantly more major conflicts then you are suggesting.

You keep trying to make me look unreasonable, but it keeps failing. I especially like how you try and artificially inflate 'hundreds' of worlds into thousands, in your desperate, flailing attempt to gain credibility.

Strange, I recall mentioning 200 as a lower limit and working with that. I'm not working with any exaggerated numbers. I merely pointed out that even 1000+ planets could be destroyed and still be labelled as "hundreds".

But I repeat as above: Without proof they were stepping up the attack tempo, either in destruction or pace, there is no reason to assume they do.

Except for Seven's statement of hundreds of Borg worlds destroyed. Either Species 8472 was attacking signficantly more frequently then you are suggesting, or the VO battle report wasn't as large as previous battles. Which wouldn't be surprising in the least, since logically a losing enemy is going to have less and less resources to throw into battles.

So sorry it smashes your dreams of the Borg being uber, but it's canon, and anyone thinking logically will see that boasting done in interrogation for intimidation purposes is not as reliable as self-assessment of a threat.

For the moment, I'll drop the thousands of worlds under Borg control arguement. Right now I'm trying to point out to you your premise is flawed because the resulting number(of destroyed planets) is significantly lower than the absolute minimum stated by Seven of Nine.

I would hardly consider that generous. The Borg losing the war would only require the lose of all their primary defenses(ie: ships). Since the Borg have trillions of Borg on hand, and their losses amounted to only millions, obviously their war projections did not include available drones, and in all likelyhood planets either.

I will agree on the drones, but claiming planets don't matter is a load of stupidity fit only to flush into the HoS.

Explain how Borg worlds without fleet support would put up any kind of resistance to Species 8472, especially since we've witnessed what Species 8472 does to them. Once the Collective's fleets are destroyed, the war is effectively over. You disagree?

Unfortunately, your "generously estimated" rate of attrition is significantly inadaquate to account for the known losses the Borg took. In this case, planets, which they lost hundreds of. Your number crunching doesn't even meet the bare minimum lower limit(ie: 200).

I consider the Borg self-assessment more accurate then Seven trying to impress the need for caution on Voyager. I'm sorry you dislike what the Borg Collective itself says, and that it doesn't fit your ideals.

You're just under the illusion that Seven's statement and the Borg VO are in conflict, when in fact the only thing in conflict is your premise and Seven's statement.

[Robert Walper]

The burden of proof is on your side! You need to provide evidence that the Borg assimilate entire civilizations(including planets).

Watch "Star Trek: First Contact".

[Robert Walper]

the key word is "entire" including planets.

Watch "Star Trek: First Contact".

[El Moose Monstero]

I'm sorry, am I supposed to take the Queen trying to scare Data as perfectly factual when it contradicts the Collective, talking to itself, on it's impending doom? Are you completely stupid?

I've just had a thought here, hope you dont mind me chipping in with it, but why would the queen be trying to scare Data before the activation of the emotion chip? I mean it could be that the Borg only just located it when they activated it, but they'd had time to graft skin on to him and connect it up to the emotion chip signals, and they had to do something to do with the data pathways, so they must have known it was there, which means that the queen has no reason to try and intimidate Data because he is unintimidatable without the chip being on. The only other possible option is that she's feeding Data false information, but a casual remark isnt going to be accepted by Starfleet command as solid proof.

[SirNitram]

Not at all. As I stated before, Seven of Nine made it clear the Borg lost hundreds of world. Your numbers don't add up. You're "generous" estimation of 20 attacks total doesn't even reach the absolute minimum(ie: 200) number of planets Seven of Nine stated Species 8472 destroyed, which was hundreds.

So, we are to assume that the Borg talking amongst themselves are less accurate than Seven talking to the crew of Voyager? I like how you try and pretend there's something wrong with taking the Collective to be intelligent enough to be correct in assessing their own doom.

You're going to have to explain how Seven's statement and the Borg VO conflict with eachother. Seven's statement and the Collective's VO are easily compatible. It's your premise and resulting math against Seven's statement that is not compatible.

Funny, my premise is that the evidence in Scorpion is all accurate... Oh wait, you think it's somehow starting from the idea the Borg are weak and working backwards, because you yourself start from premises and work backwards.

You take a few examples of colonies being scooped up by the Borg and assimilated, and seriously suggest this is all they do? You seriously expect me to believe the Borg do not assimilate entire civilizations, adding planets and resources to their existing infrastructure?

Wow, Black/White Fallacy. No, Robert. I offer it as an example of how one can assimilate species from thousands of worlds without controlling thousands of worlds.

I'd freely admit that it's possible the Borg could assimilate thousands of species without controlling thousands of worlds.

As you conceeded this point in the last post, we'll let it drop.

And you have evidence they boost about themselves I suppose, as opposed to just assuming they are?

I'm sorry, am I supposed to take the Queen trying to scare Data as perfectly factual when it contradicts the Collective, talking to itself, on it's impending doom? Are you completely stupid?

I don't see how the Queen's statement contradicts the Collective's VO or Seven's statement. All I see is Seven's statement contradicting your submitted premise and resulting math.

Yea, the horrible premise of 'Scorpion is accurate'.

And your mistake is assuming the the rate of loss is unchanging, and that the VO battle report was the largest scale battle to date(I assume we can agree it was in all likelyhood last major one). Obviously this is not the case, since the Borg lost hundreds of planets to Species 8472. Even with your "generous" calculations, your number falls significantly short of the absolute minimum number of planets Seven stated were destroyed. Hundreds could account for even close to two thousand planets destroyed.

I love this. Bald, unsupported assumptions, one after another. Especially in the 'Assuming this attack was the worst', bit. If you knew math, you'd realize I assumed it was a perfectly average attack.

Which is obviously incorrect. Even your twenty "total" attacks using this "average" casualty count falls signficantly short of the damage Seven stated Species 8472 did. Obviously this attack was smaller than the other major conflicts the Borg and Species 8472 had, or there were significantly more major conflicts then you are suggesting.

Or, dun dun dun, Seven is not being 100% literal and accurate. Given that her objective in this statement is to impress the need for caution onto Voyager's crew, and that we have seen the VOY-era Borg have some guile, when there is a choice between 'Invent extra attacks' and 'Assume Seven is not being 100% accurate', I chose the latter. Show why we should invent extra attacks.

But I repeat as above: Without proof they were stepping up the attack tempo, either in destruction or pace, there is no reason to assume they do.

Except for Seven's statement of hundreds of Borg worlds destroyed. Either Species 8472 was attacking signficantly more frequently then you are suggesting, or the VO battle report wasn't as large as previous battles. Which wouldn't be surprising in the least, since logically a losing enemy is going to have less and less resources to throw into battles.

Or that Seven isn't being 100% accurate. I realize this concept would shatter your desperate need for the Borg to be uber, but it still exists.

So sorry it smashes your dreams of the Borg being uber, but it's canon, and anyone thinking logically will see that boasting done in interrogation for intimidation purposes is not as reliable as self-assessment of a threat.

For the moment, I'll drop the thousands of worlds under Borg control arguement. Right now I'm trying to point out to you your premise is flawed because the resulting number(of destroyed planets) is significantly lower than the absolute minimum stated by Seven of Nine.

So we must consider which is more likely: That there are dozens of attacks we have no evidence for, or that Seven could be being less than 100% accurate.

I would hardly consider that generous. The Borg losing the war would only require the lose of all their primary defenses(ie: ships). Since the Borg have trillions of Borg on hand, and their losses amounted to only millions, obviously their war projections did not include available drones, and in all likelyhood planets either.

I will agree on the drones, but claiming planets don't matter is a load of stupidity fit only to flush into the HoS.

Explain how Borg worlds without fleet support would put up any kind of resistance to Species 8472, especially since we've witnessed what Species 8472 does to them. Once the Collective's fleets are destroyed, the war is effectively over. You disagree?

If we base 'defeat' off 'inability to fight back effectively', then the Borg had lost well before they lost their fleets. Therefore I reject this definition.

Unfortunately, your "generously estimated" rate of attrition is significantly inadaquate to account for the known losses the Borg took. In this case, planets, which they lost hundreds of. Your number crunching doesn't even meet the bare minimum lower limit(ie: 200).

I consider the Borg self-assessment more accurate then Seven trying to impress the need for caution on Voyager. I'm sorry you dislike what the Borg Collective itself says, and that it doesn't fit your ideals.

You're just under the illusion that Seven's statement and the Borg VO are in conflict, when in fact the only thing in conflict is your premise and Seven's statement.

Yes, my premise that is known as 'Parsimony'.

[Luzifer's right hand]

the key word is "entire" including planets.

Watch "Star Trek: First Contact".

Are alternative timelines now canon?

[Robert Walper]

Funny, my premise is that the evidence in Scorpion is all accurate...
*snip*

That's not a problem. Once again, I ask you to explain how and why Seven's statement conflicts with the Borg VO, or the Queen's statement in ST:FC.

I don't see how the Queen's statement contradicts the Collective's VO or Seven's statement. All I see is Seven's statement contradicting your submitted premise and resulting math.

Yea, the horrible premise of 'Scorpion is accurate'.

This is the second time your rebuttal consists of nothing more than "my premise is that the information is Scorpion is accurate". And once again, I ask you to explain how the Queen's statement and Seven's statement conflict with information from Scorpion.

Which is obviously incorrect. Even your twenty "total" attacks using this "average" casualty count falls signficantly short of the damage Seven stated Species 8472 did. Obviously this attack was smaller than the other major conflicts the Borg and Species 8472 had, or there were significantly more major conflicts then you are suggesting.

Or, dun dun dun, Seven is not being 100% literal and accurate.

I like how you can easily claim Seven isn't 100% accurate, but Tuvok's statement must be taken at face value, despite it providing nothing more than a lower limit number of attacks.

Given that her objective in this statement is to impress the need for caution onto Voyager's crew, and that we have seen the VOY-era Borg have some guile, when there is a choice between 'Invent extra attacks' and 'Assume Seven is not being 100% accurate', I chose the latter. Show why we should invent extra attacks.

Frankly, there's no need to speculate on extra attacks(although of course Tuvok's statement was a lower limit by any definition). I proposed two possible theories. That was one, the other was that previous confrontations were much larger in scale. I don't see how this would be the least bit surprising since naturally a losing side is going to have less and less resources to throw at the enemy during the course of a war.

BTW, why would Seven exaggerate or lie to Tuvok about how many planets Species 8472 destroyed? Tuvok at this time is not her enemy, she has no reason to lie or exaggerate to him.

Or that Seven isn't being 100% accurate. I realize this concept would shatter your desperate need for the Borg to be uber, but it still exists.

Please explain why Tuvok's lower limit figure (quote: "at least a dozen occasions") is acceptable, but Seven's lower limit figure (quote: "hundreds of Borg worlds") isn't. You're playing favorites now. This is especially obvious since both parties can be correct and there is no contradiction.

So we must consider which is more likely: That there are dozens of attacks we have no evidence for, or that Seven could be being less than 100% accurate.

Are you seriously unable to comprehend that both Tuvok and Seven can be correct, and there is no contradiction?

Explain how Borg worlds without fleet support would put up any kind of resistance to Species 8472, especially since we've witnessed what Species 8472 does to them. Once the Collective's fleets are destroyed, the war is effectively over. You disagree?

If we base 'defeat' off 'inability to fight back effectively', then the Borg had lost well before they lost their fleets. Therefore I reject this definition.

The definition I suggested is "lack of ships to fight with at all" as opposed to "fighting effectively". Clearly the Borg had little effect against Species 8472, even at their full strength at the begining of the war. Using your definition, the Borg lost the war after the first shots were fired by both sides. I reject that definition.

[Robert Walper]

the key word is "entire" including planets.

Watch "Star Trek: First Contact".

Are alternative timelines now canon?

The Borg canonly assimilate planets. Get over it.