The Power of the Borg

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-11 07:36pm

Does anyone (maybe by the name of Robert) have a clue on the size of Borg space and the number of planets and ships.
Details about their infrastructure (where the transwarp hubs are located and how fast you can go with / without them) would also be appreciated.

I found a few maps on the net that show Borg control of the whole DQ, but they are not canon.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-02-11 09:22pm

All such info is speculation; IIRC there are not canon statements of any value. Robert can fill you in, but bear in mind he's a self-confessed Borg-cultist, so he's a bit optimistic

(must remember to mail Rob about his research... goes to look for his emaiil)

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-02-11 10:17pm

GySgt. Hartman wrote:Does anyone (maybe by the name of Robert) have a clue on the size of Borg space

Well, we know Borg space encompasses thousand of star systems and planets according to Janeway in STVOY "Scorpion", and there was "no going around it". In STVOY "The Gift", Kes, after acquiring her super powers, flung Voyager almost ten thousand lightyears to safely "clear Borg space". What is interesting is that despite "clearing" Borg space, Voyager encountered Borg vessels throughout the rest of it's journey home, and even apparently could find one fairly quickly on a couple of occasions. This might suggest Voyager was travelling near Borg space during it's journey, similar in nature to someone walking along a coastline. STVOY "Endgame"(season finale of Voyager) had Voyager coming across one of the Borg's major technologies, a Borg transwarp hub. This suggests Borg space is either far larger than some have suggested, or that it is not restricted to one area. My best conclusion so far is that the Borg have a very large portion of "solid" space under their control, with smaller portions thoughout the galaxy. This would tend to fit with their "decentralized" design concepts, so their infrastructure being similar in nature isn't surprising.

and the number of planets and ships.

According to the Borg Queen in ST:FC, the Borg have assimilated thousands of worlds and thousands of species. The Borg have canonly classified 10,026 species as of STVOY "Dark Frontier". Going solely by the Queen's statement, we can suggest a lower limit of two thousand species and planets under Borg control. As to Borg vessels, the canon lower limts on fleet size would be:

Cubes: 1,184 (ref STVOY "Unimatrix Zero")
Tactical cubes: 138 (ref STVOY "Unimatrix Zero")
Spheres: 878 (ref STVOY "Unimatrix Zero")
Diamonds: 1 (ref STVOY "Dark Frontier")
Probes: 1 (ref STVOY "Dark Frontier")
Scouts: 2 (ref STTNG "I, Borg")

The first three numbers were derived be ship "name"; the Queen was merely listing the ship's designation. Therefore there's no way to determine how high these numbers actually get or are relative to the overall fleet sizes. The last three numbers are simply the number of ships of that particluar class we've seen. I would consider all of the above very conservative numbers. If I were to wager a guess at Borg fleet strength at the peak of their power, I'd say a few hundred thousand of the large class ships all told, and maybe a few million of the smaller ones.

Details about their infrastructure (where the transwarp hubs are located and how fast you can go with / without them) would also be appreciated.

Aside from major Borg planets(two thousand at least), the Borg have the Primary Unicomplex, a massive space structure composed of interlinking structures, with a population of trillions of Borg.

There are six Borg transwarp hubs, and they allow the Borg Collective to deploy vessels throughout the galaxy within "minutes" according to Seven of Nine. Screen time for STVOY "Endgame" had Voyager crossing the remainder of it's journey to Earth within five minutes(no calcs on hand for that I'm afraid). Outside of the hubs, the Borg employ transwarp conduits and transwarp coils. The transwarp conduit witnessed in STTNG "Descent" transported the Enterprise D 65 lightyears in about seven seconds. That translates to roughly 292 million C.

In STVOY "Dark Frontier", the Delta flyer shuttle was using a stolen Borg transwarp coil. It travelled over 200 lightyears in under ten seconds(in a single unbroken scene I might add). This translates to roughly 630 million C.

I found a few maps on the net that show Borg control of the whole DQ, but they are not canon.

The Borg under no circumstances control the entire Delta quadrant. Although I submit one could easily argue they are the largest well known power in it, and control a signficantly large portion of it.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-02-11 10:52pm

Robert, using the cube's designation is not such a good idea. Even if its a simple incremental thing (instead of something complex, like Collective IPs or something) ships lost, destroyed or retired would pad out the number. I'm not sure these numbers can be used as a lower limit.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-02-11 11:22pm

Stark wrote:Robert, using the cube's designation is not such a good idea.

*shrugs* It's the best idea I've got at the moment.

Even if its a simple incremental thing (instead of something complex, like Collective IPs or something) ships lost, destroyed or retired would pad out the number. I'm not sure these numbers can be used as a lower limit.

Well, I'm working on the assumption the Borg designate their vessels numerically in order of construction. Regardless of the number of vessels destroyed, lost, etc, I tend to think that at some point the Borg Collective did indeed have at least 1,184 cubes, 138 tactical cube, etc, etc. I can't think of any other reason the Borg would apply those numbers within their mentality.

The exact designation fo the vessels was stated as "Cube 1184", "Tactical Cube 138", "Sphere 878", etc. I could see the Borg starting a "vessel 001", "vessel 002" and so forth. Borg drones are numercial in designation as well. For example "third of five", "seven of nine", etc.

But if anyone has a better method of interpreting these ship designations(rather than random numbers), I'm all ears.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2004-02-12 12:57am

I don't count Voyager as cannon anyway. *puts fingers in ears* laa laa laa. Voyager never happened. laa laa laaa... Janeway never made a "bargain" with the Borg (they cannot be bargained with according to TNG), they never reached Warp 10 and turned into salamanders, they never found a floating pick up truck, "photonic" life never became the new trend...

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-02-12 01:57am

The Borg could be restored to their former power if a new series is properly done.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-12 03:41pm

Thanks for the help, guys.
I don't suppose there would be any estimates on Borg firepower?

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-02-12 06:44pm

GySgt. Hartman wrote:Thanks for the help, guys.
I don't suppose there would be any estimates on Borg firepower?

If one were calculate Voyager's shield capacity, a single hit with a Borg cube's tractor beam can disable them. A 600 meter diameter sphere can easily slap Voyager around, and even "enhanced" counterattacks are rendered ineffective.

The above info would depend upon calcs of Voyager itself, and even once established, merely sets a lower limit of Borg offensive output.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-12 07:40pm

Yeah, that's what I figured. Too bad.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2004-02-12 10:16pm

Robert, remember when Voyager single-handedly took out a cube? Those "tactical cubes" sure are effective too, aren't they?

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-02-12 10:34pm

Superman wrote:Robert, remember when Voyager single-handedly took out a cube? Those "tactical cubes" sure are effective too, aren't they?

When did that happen?

VGR fought the tactical cube twice. The first time they were sent packing. The second time, VGR had a sphere backing her up. The two didn't do any visible damage, even when Torres lowered the cube's dorsal shield grid. The ship was only destroyed when the Queen initiated its self-destruct (an effort to kill Janeway, IIRC (?)).

One could very fairly say that in the first of the two encounters, VGR did last longer than one might expect. Then again, so what? Staying on your feet for an extra round is a far cry from beating your opponent, let alone knocking him out cold.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2004-02-12 10:38pm

Entire fleets of Fed ships get taken down by SINGLE cubes, yet Voyager not only withstands them but cases damage and then escapes. This is exactly why I say that Voyager wussified the Borg.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-02-12 11:13pm

Superman wrote:Entire fleets of Fed ships get taken down by SINGLE cubes, yet Voyager not only withstands them but cases damage and then escapes. This is exactly why I say that Voyager wussified the Borg.

The Borg Queen was canonly seen to and even stated herself she was playing referee for Voyager. She actively prevented the Borg from full out assimilating/destroying Voyager.

This makes perfect sense. The first Borg cube Voyager encountered bitchslapped her within a second. All future "wussified" encounters are easily attributed to the Queen's interference on Voyager's behalf.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-02-12 11:15pm

Superman wrote:Robert, remember when Voyager single-handedly took out a cube?

Nope. Never happened. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate?

Those "tactical cubes" sure are effective too, aren't they?

Don't know...never seen a tactical cube in a full out assault mode. Presumeably they are virtually identical to typical cubes, but with much thicker armor plating.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2004-02-12 11:16pm

I just watched that part again, and Voyager never did singlehandedly take out a cube. My bad.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-02-12 11:19pm

Superman wrote:I just watched that part again, and Voyager never did singlehandedly take out a cube. My bad.

*nods* Ok then.

Lord Jax · Post by **Lord Jax** » 2004-02-16 01:13am

well there is a star trek book on star charts out now

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-16 01:36am

Books are noncanon, and is four days considered necromancy?

Comosicus · Post by **Comosicus** » 2004-02-16 04:39am

Rogue 9 wrote:Books are noncanon, and is four days considered necromancy?

Well, the announcement spoke about weeks. Although this could depend on the moderator of the topic. But I've seen treads revived after 2 weeks.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-16 04:51am

Within two weeks is the general limit, unless someone actually has something worthwhile to contribute to the discussion, which is frankly not very often.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-16 04:51am

I've seen a couple mods lock for one week. *Shrug*

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-02-16 06:52am

According to the Announcements forum contributing meaningful and relevant information does not constitute thread necromancy.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-16 09:19am

It varies Mod to Mod...but unless it's on the second page most mods won't give a damn because it's still a viable topic easily.

So no four days is 99% of the times not even begun to the be Necromancy.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-02-16 07:22pm

Sorry to add anything, but if it's getting closed anyway...

The thing is the Borg don't assimilate anything anymore, rather it's the Feddie heroes that "assimilate" their enemies with their treknobabble!

Archer's team can kick the asses of 24th century Borg easily, though that might also have something to do with not being wussified 24th century Feds (still the discrepencies in tech should make a difference, oh well).

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