Observation on TNG: Peak Performance

[Kamakazie Sith]

I agree, except that it is still not cheating. Taking advantage of an enemies weakness, whatever it might be is not cheating.

I'm not sure you are following, mate. The purpose of a wargame is to train for the times when you really are going to have to see the elephant in war. What Riker did relied entirely on the fact that it was the Enterprise, which made the exercise useless. How many Romulan Warbirds are going to allow Wesley the Wonder Kid to walk around their ship and smuggle something from his science experiment that he was doing on the ship out?

I think your missing the point. In battle you take advantage of whatever weakness you can exploit, regardless if the battle is a simulation or real. True, if those would have been Romulan Warbirds it wouldn't have worked but that's not my point. The point being taking advantage of whatever weaknesses your opponent leaves open is not cheating regardless of the circumstances......

[Kamakazie Sith]

Truefully they both cheated what is your point. If Kahn had stolden a ship from a foreign power Kirk would have been in real trouble. But since Kirk would not have been caught of guard in that case.... you get the idea

I disagree. I don't consider that cheating at all. For it to be cheating it must breach the rules of the game.....

[Isolder74]

I doubt Op Force would agree with you

[Kamakazie Sith]

I doubt Op Force would agree with you

Define cheating....

[Isolder74]

I beleive that it obvious. The ship was suppost to do a conventional wargame against the Hathaway and Riker did not do that! He pulled a bunch of cheap tricks. He definatally cheated. But that may be tha fault of the setup in the first place. They gave Riker a situatiion in which cheating was the only was to win.

We never said it was his fault, but he seems to be able to pull off victories from this sort of thing is just a sign of bad writing

[Kamakazie Sith]

I beleive that it obvious. The ship was suppost to do a conventional wargame against the Hathaway and Riker did not do that! He pulled a bunch of cheap tricks. He definatally cheated. But that may be tha fault of the setup in the first place. They gave Riker a situatiion in which cheating was the only was to win.

We never said it was his fault, but he seems to be able to pull off victories from this sort of thing is just a sign of bad writing

In order to cheat in a contest such as that, you must violate a rule. What rule did he violate? Picard didn't consider it cheating, neither did the Zackdorn or whatever who was overseeing the exercise.

I agree, Riker, is known for finding some ridiculous method other than just actually fighting it out. However, that doesn't make it cheating. Cheating to me is when someone violates the rules to gain an advantage. Not when someone takes advantage of a weakness.

[Isolder74]

Obviously we have different senses of ethics.

anyway as a wargame this was a total waste of time. For a wargame to really work, like I said before, both sides have to have an equal chance of vistory without cheap gimics. The initial setup of this match obviously did not.

Now if Riker had invented some new manuever that made the ship more efective in battle insead I probably would not object or actually use Electronic Warfare(hacking into computer is not EW) to cause the ship to see ghost images of the ship(perhaps with a drone or shuttlecraft that emmits a false image of the ship to fool the sensor) then I would not call that cheating since it does not give him access to things he would not normally have available to him in battle.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Obviously we have different senses of ethics.

anyway as a wargame this was a total waste of time. For a wargame to really work, like I said before, both sides have to have an equal chance of vistory without cheap gimics. The initial setup of this match obviously did not.

Now if Riker had invented some new manuever that made the ship more efective in battle insead I probably would not object or actually use Electronic Warfare(hacking into computer is not EW) to cause the ship to see ghost images of the ship(perhaps with a drone or shuttlecraft that emmits a false image of the ship to fool the sensor) then I would not call that cheating since it does not give him access to things he would not normally have available to him in battle.

Did Sisko cheat when he made the Cardassian OWP target their own power source in DS9 "The Tears of the Prophets"

[Patrick Degan]

The problem is not that the cheats violated game rules or the rules of war, but rather that they were wholly artificial cheats carried out under wholly artificial conditions, which renders the value of the wargammes scenario moot. The object of any wargamme trial is to test battle strategies and execution under realistic combat conditions; an object already defeated by the ridiculous concept of performance in a mismatch situation. Which in any real world ends in only one result; the inferior ship is doomed. In a wholly realistic scenario (which "Peak Performance" certainly isn't), the only object Riker can conceivably accomplish in the Hathaway is to elude the Enterprise and escape theoretical destruction. Succesfully challenging the Enterprise in combat isn't even in the cards.

[Kamakazie Sith]

The problem is not that the cheats violated game rules or the rules of war, but rather that they were wholly artificial cheats carried out under wholly artificial conditions, which renders the value of the wargammes scenario moot. The object of any wargamme trial is to test battle strategies and execution under realistic combat conditions; an object already defeated by the ridiculous concept of performance in a mismatch situation. Which in any real world ends in only one result; the inferior ship is doomed. In a wholly realistic scenario (which "Peak Performance" certainly isn't), the only object Riker can conceivably accomplish in the Hathaway is to elude the Enterprise and escape theoretical destruction. Succesfully challenging the Enterprise in combat isn't even in the cards.

I understand what you're saying and I agree. The whole scenario was foolish if they were to train on strategies. However, I only consider it cheating when someone violates the set rules of a game.

[Isolder74]

Obviously we have different senses of ethics.

anyway as a wargame this was a total waste of time. For a wargame to really work, like I said before, both sides have to have an equal chance of vistory without cheap gimics. The initial setup of this match obviously did not.

Now if Riker had invented some new manuever that made the ship more efective in battle insead I probably would not object or actually use Electronic Warfare(hacking into computer is not EW) to cause the ship to see ghost images of the ship(perhaps with a drone or shuttlecraft that emmits a false image of the ship to fool the sensor) then I would not call that cheating since it does not give him access to things he would not normally have available to him in battle.

since you ask.....






YES

Sisco was cheating. Star Trek writers must have been the type to look over my shoulder during tests. Just because you win does not make it ethically correct now does it.
Did Sisko cheat when he made the Cardassian OWP target their own power source in DS9 "The Tears of the Prophets"

[Isolder74]

The problem is not that the cheats violated game rules or the rules of war, but rather that they were wholly artificial cheats carried out under wholly artificial conditions, which renders the value of the wargammes scenario moot. The object of any wargamme trial is to test battle strategies and execution under realistic combat conditions; an object already defeated by the ridiculous concept of performance in a mismatch situation. Which in any real world ends in only one result; the inferior ship is doomed. In a wholly realistic scenario (which "Peak Performance" certainly isn't), the only object Riker can conceivably accomplish in the Hathaway is to elude the Enterprise and escape theoretical destruction. Succesfully challenging the Enterprise in combat isn't even in the cards.

I understand what you're saying and I agree. The whole scenario was foolish if they were to train on strategies. However, I only consider it cheating when someone violates the set rules of a game.

So it is now up to you to tell us what the rules of this game were. Because at the start it is stated to be a standard wargame

[Kamakazie Sith]

Obviously we have different senses of ethics.

anyway as a wargame this was a total waste of time. For a wargame to really work, like I said before, both sides have to have an equal chance of vistory without cheap gimics. The initial setup of this match obviously did not.

Now if Riker had invented some new manuever that made the ship more efective in battle insead I probably would not object or actually use Electronic Warfare(hacking into computer is not EW) to cause the ship to see ghost images of the ship(perhaps with a drone or shuttlecraft that emmits a false image of the ship to fool the sensor) then I would not call that cheating since it does not give him access to things he would not normally have available to him in battle.

I guess we do. You consider exploiting an advantage left open by the enemy as cheating, I don't. It was Picard or the security chiefs responsibility to change the access codes after the Hathaway crew left, but they failed to do that......hell I think it's even standard procedure.

Not normally no, but that still does not make it cheating. Anyway I think we've gone as far as we can in the discussion.

Cheating to me is when you violate the set rules of a scenario, this did not have any set rules. Riker played dirty but he hardly cheated.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Obviously we have different senses of ethics.

anyway as a wargame this was a total waste of time. For a wargame to really work, like I said before, both sides have to have an equal chance of vistory without cheap gimics. The initial setup of this match obviously did not.

Now if Riker had invented some new manuever that made the ship more efective in battle insead I probably would not object or actually use Electronic Warfare(hacking into computer is not EW) to cause the ship to see ghost images of the ship(perhaps with a drone or shuttlecraft that emmits a false image of the ship to fool the sensor) then I would not call that cheating since it does not give him access to things he would not normally have available to him in battle.

since you ask.....






YES

Sisco was cheating. Star Trek writers must have been the type to look over my shoulder during tests. Just because you win does not make it ethically correct now does it.
Did Sisko cheat when he made the Cardassian OWP target their own power source in DS9 "The Tears of the Prophets"

LOL alright...... The very thought of being accussed of cheating during a battle is very amusing. I'd laugh at someone.......

[Gil Hamilton]

Sisco was cheating. Star Trek writers must have been the type to look over my shoulder during tests. Just because you win does not make it ethically correct now does it.
Did Sisko cheat when he made the Cardassian OWP target their own power source in DS9 "The Tears of the Prophets"

I wouldn't say he was cheating. The Cardassians left a weak point open and Sisko exploited it, certainly, but there is no shame in striking at where an enemy is vulnerable. The difference is that Sisko and gang gathered their information on the Cardassian powerplant without the scenario being completely artificial and exploiting knowledge that they could have only gotten thanks to the fact that they live on the powerplant and can wander freely back and forth.

[Techno_Union]

Off topic of what you guys are talking about but, when the Enterprise thought there was a Romulan Warbird coming they raised their shields, but when the Hathaway was attacking it the shields were not being shown has being hit. Is this because the "laser" weapons were able to pass through or were they simply a light beam that did no KE effect so the shields did not light up?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Off topic of what you guys are talking about but, when the Enterprise thought there was a Romulan Warbird coming they raised their shields, but when the Hathaway was attacking it the shields were not being shown has being hit. Is this because the "laser" weapons were able to pass through or were they simply a light beam that did no KE effect so the shields did not light up?

I think it's because they were just visible lasers, probably no more power than a laser we have today. Of course this is based off an assumption.

[Uraniun235]

For that matter, why did they have to screw with the shields anyway? Couldn't they have just registered the laser beam impacts on the shields? (or non-impacts, as the VFX would suggest... perhaps the Enterprise shunted all power to the forward shields?)

[Kamakazie Sith]

For that matter, why did they have to screw with the shields anyway? Couldn't they have just registered the laser beam impacts on the shields? (or non-impacts, as the VFX would suggest... perhaps the Enterprise shunted all power to the forward shields?)

I think we all can pretty much agree this is just another nail in the coffin labeled "stupid episode"

[Uraniun235]

Oh, most certainly.

[Kurgan]

This reminds me of the whole "You cheated! / Okay fine I quit you sore loser!" thing with Challenge 2002 (or whatever they called that big military exercise between the US and "I Nation" using partially simulated troops.

You know, the one where the Red commander used motorcycle couriers and coded messages in the call to prayer to subvert communications snooping/jamming and suicide attacks from explosive rigged tiny boats and planes to sink the entire US fleet...

In your opinion was THAT GUY (the Red Commander) cheating?

IIRC the RC was named "Ripper" (just like Gen. Ripper in Dr. Strangelove, lol)

[CDiehl]

The problem is not so much that Riker, et al. cheated, as it is that they violated the purpose of the exercise. On one hand, they did what they should have done in a situation like that, and improvised, overcame and adapted. On the other hand, the specific manner in which they improvised, overcame and adapted had nothing at all to do with fighting an alien ship, since I assume they weren't practicing to fight other Starfleet ships. In a real battle, the things Riker and his crew did would not be possible and are not done. Sadly, these tricks, clever as they are, don't help them in a real battle, because the crew will not be as familiar with some enemy ship as they are with the Enterprise.

As for Kurgan's example, Ripper's actions were not cheating at all. They were how one fights a real war. Sending secret messages to one's allies in enemy territory and employing terrorism against an enemy are just as legitimate acts in a war as fighting battles with uniformed troops are. I don't see the difference between destroying an enemy ship with a willing suicide bomber or with a cannon; it's just as destroyed. If one's enemies don't like it, tough.

[Bill Door]

....the Red commander used motorcycle couriers and coded messages in the call to prayer to subvert communications snooping/jamming

I'd say that's not cheating. That is intellegent use of resources availible to the Red commander.

and suicide attacks from explosive rigged tiny boats and planes to sink the entire US fleet...

That would only be cheating if these attacks were done by an enemy to whom suicide bombing is not an acceptable tactic.

Cheating in this case would be the Red commander using knowledge not availible to his equivalent in real life, for example using US logins to access information about the US deployments.

Alot like Riker and his trick with the Enterprise command codes.

[TurboPhaser]

No offense Mike, but your theory seems even more outrageous than mine. Either Worf took another system that was capable of perfectly mimicking a Warbird and then remotely wired it into the viewscreen perfectly (and we know it usually takes Starfleet engineers with direct access to systems at least several minutes to do such things), or he magically coded the system on the fly (which is patently absurd). Furthermore, Worf said that the computer would take the sensor data and then match it to a rendering on the viewscreen. He did not say he would undertake each operation independantly (something which would presumably take considerably more time).


As for benefit, I could see using it against obsolete cloaks that are invisible to the naked eye but not to advanced sensors. However I do agree that it is incredibly foolish not to depict CGI ships as such.

I may be a bit late here, but why is his theory so outrageous? How do you know that programming the computer to display an enemy vessel isnt as hard as opening a jpg on any of our computers?

It could have been footage from a previous incident recorded in the ships logs that Worf accessed and simply overlayed the footage on the live feed from the viewscreen.

I mean, if he can send false messages to the sensors telling them that they detect a Romulan Warbird, how hard can it be to stick a picture of one on the viewscreen?