a collaborative effort against the Borg

[Shrykull]

Say, The federation, dominion, klingons, romulans and Breen decide to fight the borg. They build say a sovereign class ships (but much bigger) with a phase cloak, normal cloak, phaser cannons, quantum torps (on the magnitude of first contact), Neutronium hull, transphasic torpedos, deflector dish beam (one that won't burn out the deflector after you use it , Breen energy dissipator weapon, anti matter spread from Bobw, holographic security force (can't be assimilated with nanoprobes) and powerful shields (they could use Barclay's shield enhancing trick) , and dominion's phased poloron beams, and a bio-geneic weapon for use against a planet.

Just one problem, even if this ship could fight the borg, it couldn't get the thier space without transwarp or quantum slipsteam (think they will ever perfect the one they tried to make in Voyager?)

The deflector dish beam (it didn't scratch the cube in Bobw, but could it be modified like the phasers were in first contact to evade the shields?) and AM spread would only be useful against an unshielded ship or planets, (do they have any way of firing pure antimatter at something? Borg planets are unshielded after all) , after the shields were down, when they are, it's free floating quarks for them, unless perhaps any borg ships have neutronium hulls,

and there's no anti particle of a neutron to react with.

edit- actually, there is, just learned it today- the antineutron but both of them have no charge

[Robert Walper]

Me thinks you may get slap on wrist for making so many new topics.

As to the OP, given the size, scope and power of the Borg Collective, a full out assualt on even that alliance would undoubtedly result in it's assimilation, although some unusually high Borg casualties may arise.

[Shrykull]

Me thinks you may get slap on wrist for making so many new topics.

Yeah, maybe I should combine them

As to the OP, given the size, scope and power of the Borg Collective, a full out assualt on even that alliance would undoubtedly result in it's assimilation, although some unusually high Borg casualties may arise

How would they attack a phase cloaked ship (couldn't fire in this state, though it could get as far into it's territory as it needs to, where it can employ it's AM spread and bio-geneic weapons , and the neutronium hull is impervious to borg weapons (as seen in Think Tank) the ships weapons could tear through cubes, as could the transphasic torpedo's. One thing I forgot as a last resort, is self destruction to prevent assimilation.

[seanrobertson]

How would they attack a phase cloaked ship (couldn't fire in this state, though it could get as far into it's territory as it needs to, where it can employ it's AM spread and bio-geneic weapons , and the neutronium hull is impervious to borg weapons (as seen in Think Tank) the ships weapons could tear through cubes, as could the transphasic torpedo's. One thing I forgot as a last resort, is self destruction to prevent assimilation.

Several thoughts:

1--"Think Tank" didn't indicate that, Shrykull.

Seven of Nine mentioned that the Think Tank station had a neutronium-based hull, something the Borg had tried to duplicate without success.

Point of fact, it was Voyager's weapons which were said to be ineffective against the TTS. However, a small fleet of "alien hunter" ships definitely threatened that station at the end of the episode.

Individually, those ships weren't orders of magnitude more powerful than VGR, so it stands to reason a sufficient number of Starfleet ships would be similarly effective.

2--How might the Dominion, UFP et al. acquire these neutronium hulls in the first place?

The Think Tank people aren't part of your hypothetical alliance (yet, anyway). Even if they were and shared their know-how with everyone else, there's no assurance the alliance could churn out a meaningful number of neutronium-clad ships.

In fact, if they had to work with existing designs, that would probably prove impossible: Starfleet ships already require forcefields to hold themselves together, so more mass would be a serious detriment.

Furthermore, since more massive ships require greater power to move through space, power generation limitations or rapid fuel depletion could be another problem.

3--It'd appear the Borg already "adapted" to transphasic torpedoes. Shortly before Voyager was sucked into a sphere's maw, she fired multiple TPTs at the sphere with no discernable effect.

4--Even the pinnacle of Romulan-influenced starship design, Scimitar, didn't have a phase cloak. The Federation's prototype is probably lost, and the Klingons couldn't make one work. The Dominion don't bother with cloaking technology period.

So, who's going to develop the thing? Can they mass produce them? Will the ships so equipped have enough fuel to utilize superior FTL drives and the phase cloaks on a regular basis?

While we possibly answer "yes" to one or two of those questions, that leaves a lot of "unlikelies" or "unknowns."

5--The antimatter spread doesn't seem like a very effective weapon. The fireworks show we saw in "BOBW" didn't threaten Enterprise or the cube at PBR.

We also don't know if it has appreciable range in the first place, so it could be a leap to say it'd be of much use against a planet.

6--Using biological weapons against the Borg is a good idea. We know they can't survive without their living tissue ("First Contact"), so if you could attack a decent number of their planets you could probably do some real damage.

However...

7--As you note, speed is a big deal here. The "Alliance" is simply too slow to strike at the heart of the Collective.

Additionally, transwarp or slipstream drives have their own problems. Borg transwarp coils allow for impressive speed, for instance, but they seem to have limited endurance. When Voyager used one to get closer to home in "Dark Frontier," it was only good for about 10,000 ly (though it did have some mileage on it by that point). An imperfect Federation knock-off would probably not yield that much.

Slipstream and transwarp alike also exert considerable stress on starships; VGR was almost torn apart by the former ("Timeless" I believe), and many ships which enter transwarp are somehow damaged (E-D in "Descent").

Resolving all these issues, let alone to the satisfaction that all these allied ships were no longer so affected, could be a BIG hurdle. The Federation, after all, has tinkered with a type of transwarp going back to the 2280s; in 100 years, they've not made much progress, even with Borg debris to examine ("BOBW," among others).

Maybe Seven of Nine and/or VGR can provide some insight, but there's still no reason to assume an understanding of the principles means they can build a working drive. VGR certainly didn't duplicate or fix their broken transwarp coil, after all ("Dark Frontier" onward), nor could Seven improve an existing warp drive enough to break the transwarp barrier ("The Gift").

[Shrykull]

How would they attack a phase cloaked ship (couldn't fire in this state, though it could get as far into it's territory as it needs to, where it can employ it's AM spread and bio-geneic weapons , and the neutronium hull is impervious to borg weapons (as seen in Think Tank) the ships weapons could tear through cubes, as could the transphasic torpedo's. One thing I forgot as a last resort, is self destruction to prevent assimilation.

Several thoughts:

1--"Think Tank" didn't indicate that, Shrykull.

Seven of Nine mentioned that the Think Tank station had a neutronium-based hull, something the Borg had tried to duplicate without success.

Point of fact, it was Voyager's weapons which were said to be ineffective against the TTS. However, a small fleet of "alien hunter" ships definitely threatened that station at the end of the episode.

Individually, those ships weren't orders of magnitude more powerful than VGR, so it stands to reason a sufficient number of Starfleet ships would be similarly effective.

2--How might the Dominion, UFP et al. acquire these neutronium hulls in the first place?

Think they just need to mine neutron stars, the cardies had a neutronium door in an episode.

The Think Tank people aren't part of your hypothetical alliance (yet, anyway). Even if they were and shared their know-how with everyone else, there's no assurance the alliance could churn out a meaningful number of neutronium-clad ships.

Ok, so no, but as I mentioned before, they can mine the stars

In fact, if they had to work with existing designs, that would probably prove impossible: Starfleet ships already require forcefields to hold themselves together, so more mass would be a serious detriment.

Where was this mentioned?

Furthermore, since more massive ships require greater power to move through space, power generation limitations or rapid fuel depletion could be another problem.

Not with Transwarp conduits, according to Geordi in Decent "It's like falling to a river and being swept away by the current" no need for any engines, but who knows really, if a car of sufficiently dense object falls into a river, it will go to the bottom and stay there.

3--It'd appear the Borg already "adapted" to transphasic torpedoes. Shortly before Voyager was sucked into a sphere's maw, she fired multiple TPTs at the sphere with no discernable effect.

Wonder how they adapted.

4--Even the pinnacle of Romulan-influenced starship design, Scimitar, didn't have a phase cloak. The Federation's prototype is probably lost

Was it pegasus where the admiral ordered them to use it to into the asteroid? Wasn't it in the ship that was half into the asteroid inside it, and the E-D modified itself to phase shift out asteroid to get out of it?

So, who's going to develop the thing? Can they mass produce them? Will the ships so equipped have enough fuel to utilize superior FTL drives and the phase cloaks on a regular basis?

While we possibly answer "yes" to one or two of those questions, that leaves a lot of "unlikelies" or "unknowns."

5--The antimatter spread doesn't seem like a very effective weapon. The fireworks show we saw in "BOBW" didn't threaten Enterprise or the cube at PBR.

I said with the shields DOWN, not against a shielded ship

We also don't know if it has appreciable range in the first place, so it could be a leap to say it'd be of much use against a planet.

depends how much we use, beam of it or some of it would react with the air in the upper atmosphere and cause huge M/AM explosions, the planet killers beam anti-proton beam (wonder if that's where SW ripped off it's world devastators) certainly would destroy a planet.

6--Using biological weapons against the Borg is a good idea. We know they can't survive without their living tissue ("First Contact"), so if you could attack a decent number of their planets you could probably do some real damage.

I'm not sure of that, the borg probably already have standard immune systems and enhanced by nanoprobes, although they latch on to cells, rather than engulfing them like macrophages, but perhaps they could destroy infected cells like T-Cells do, or repel them like histamines and antibodies do, it's not perfect.

However...

7--As you note, speed is a big deal here. The "Alliance" is simply too slow to strike at the heart of the Collective.

Additionally, transwarp or slipstream drives have their own problems. Borg transwarp coils allow for impressive speed, for instance, but they seem to have limited endurance. When Voyager used one to get closer to home in "Dark Frontier," it was only good for about 10,000 ly (though it did have some mileage on it by that point). An imperfect Federation knock-off would probably not yield that much.

I would think now they could build transwarp ships, Seven tried to build one for Janeway, but Voyager couldn't handle it cause it was too small a ship and couldn't handle the stresses of transwarp, but I think they could build one now if from scratch if seven works with some people at the Utopia shipyards.

Slipstream and transwarp alike also exert considerable stress on starships; VGR was almost torn apart by the former ("Timeless" I believe), and many ships which enter transwarp are somehow damaged (E-D in "Descent").

Well, borg ships use them casually and frequently, they must have the requirements needed to use it, or the damage is not signifact or easily repairable (your body is "damaged" every day, and repairs when you sleep)

[Sarevok]

I'm not sure of that, the borg probably already have standard immune systems and enhanced by nanoprobes, although they latch on to cells, rather than engulfing them like macrophages, but perhaps they could destroy infected cells like T-Cells do, or repel them like histamines and antibodies do, it's not perfect.

The Borg immnune system is certainly stronger than a human but not invincible. We saw Borg dying by the thousands aboard a Cube due to a common biological virus in one Voyger episode. Then again Borg nanites proved useless again Species 8472 cells without extensive modifications and in FC the Borg were helpless against chemical gas attack. So coming up with ant-Borg Bio-Chemical weapons would not be difficult.

[Sarevok]

4--Even the pinnacle of Romulan-influenced starship design, Scimitar, didn't have a phase cloak. The Federation's prototype is probably lost

Even without a phasecloak the Scimatar is a formidable battleship. It has demonstrated shields and firepower that far exceed the Sovergein and can fire while cloaked.

[Shrykull]

I'm not sure of that, the borg probably already have standard immune systems and enhanced by nanoprobes, although they latch on to cells, rather than engulfing them like macrophages, but perhaps they could destroy infected cells like T-Cells do, or repel them like histamines and antibodies do, it's not perfect.

The Borg immnune system is certainly stronger than a human but not invincible. We saw Borg dying by the thousands aboard a Cube due to a common biological virus in one Voyger episode. Then again Borg nanites proved useless again Species 8472 cells without extensive modifications and in FC the Borg were helpless against chemical gas attack. So coming up with ant-Borg Bio-Chemical weapons would not be difficult.

Hmm, well the culture's is apparently, as people never get sick.

[seanrobertson]

Think they just need to mine neutron stars, the cardies had a neutronium door in an episode.

In "What You Leave Behind," yes. (A neutronium door is pretty damn goofy, but that's a whole other story.)

'Course, I needn't say a door on Cardassian/Dominion HQ is a far cry from building an entire fleet of ships from similar material.

Where was this mentioned?

Outside of the TMs, I don't recall specifically. Lemme look around...the Canon Database might have an entry or two about this.

Not with Transwarp conduits, according to Geordi in Decent "It's like falling to a river and being swept away by the current" no need for any engines, but who knows really, if a car of sufficiently dense object falls into a river, it will go to the bottom and stay there.

Sure, but that might only apply when you don't have to open the conduit yourself. We don't know what sort of power's required to do that.

Don't get me wrong: this form of transwarp could still be cost effective, but since there are serious unknowns involved, I suggest we focus on something about which we have more information.

Also, a minor point of clarification: since we don't know what kind of super-warp the Federation or allies might eventually develop, I felt it was best to mention downsides to all the different methods.

Wonder how they adapted.

I don't know. They did get a look at Adm. Janewad's "future shuttle," so that probably helped

Was it pegasus where the admiral ordered them to use it to into the asteroid? Wasn't it in the ship that was half into the asteroid inside it, and the E-D modified itself to phase shift out asteroid to get out of it?

Yep, that's the one.

I said with the shields DOWN, not against a shielded ship

Oh, I understand that, but I was under the impression the sparkler effect we saw was the antimatter reacting with matter.

Anyway, the resulting explosions didn't even buffet the E-D's shields (which can be dropped by several to perhaps a couple dozen megatons), so I felt the AM spread didn't involve a lot of antimatter in the first place. I could easily be wrong...maybe what we saw was AM reacting with a bit space dust *shakes head*.

However, if I'm at all right to doubt the energy involved, and especially the spread's effective range, I do think it's of questionable use against a planet. I certainly can't recall anyone using or planning to use such a "weapon" in that way (though it might be something unique to some Federation starships, like the GCS).

depends how much we use, beam of it or some of it would react with the air in the upper atmosphere and cause huge M/AM explosions, the planet killers beam anti-proton beam (wonder if that's where SW ripped off it's world devastators) certainly would destroy a planet.

Isn't beaming raw AM a no-no?

I guess we could drop a pod into the atmosphere, then open the thing up by remote. We might also launch a pod toward a planet and blast it with phasers or torpedoes, as VGR sorta did with Vidiian ships once.

However, we'd need a lot of energy to wipe out a heavily-populated Borg world--probably well in excess of 100 teratons.

One kilogram of antimatter reacting with an equal amount of matter yields a maximum of 1.8E17J. A metric ton of each would be 1.8E20J, or 43 gigatons. A kiloton, 1.8E23J, or 43 teratons. To do the job, then, we'd need ~3 kilotons of matter and AM.

Keep that number in mind for a moment.

Lt. Cmdr. LaForge said that the warp core "normally kicks plasma up into the terawatt range" ("The Masterpiece Society"). That sets a firm upper-limit on their power required to sustain cruising speeds (warp 6, 7?), since "normal" warp travel is probably factor 7 or less.

Okay, so how long could the GCS keep going at that rate 'til she exhausted her fuel? A few years?

If we guessed warp 7, which requires no more than 999 TW (and probably much less) could be sustained for 3 years straight, a GCS's fuel payload would yield 9.4E22J.

...Whoops. That'd be devastating to a Borg population, but if all my math is correct *crosses fingers*, it's still well short of a mass extinction event. Also:

1--It is impractical, since it pretty much requires ships self-destruct in such a way as to annihilate their entire AM stores with perfect efficiency.

2--Sacrificing your ships for this purpose is also stupidly impractical.

3--These figures are ridiculously generous in every respect, so the actual number of ships needed to accomplish this could be easily be 10-100 times greater.

Plain-ole' orbital bombardment with a large fleet is a better, if less creative, way to go. It also might be fun to send antimatter tankers crashing into Borg worlds, but we face the same problem as before: every time you pull that little stunt, you're blowing resources which might be better spent elsewhere.

I'm not sure of that, the borg probably already have standard immune systems and enhanced by nanoprobes, although they latch on to cells, rather than engulfing them like macrophages, but perhaps they could destroy infected cells like T-Cells do, or repel them like histamines and antibodies do, it's not perfect.

What about your bio-genic weapons idea? Did you change your mind?

I would think now they could build transwarp ships, Seven tried to build one for Janeway, but Voyager couldn't handle it cause it was too small a ship and couldn't handle the stresses of transwarp, but I think they could build one now if from scratch if seven works with some people at the Utopia shipyards.

I dunno. I don't really think a ship's size is the crux of the matter. Delta Flyer and VGR actually could handle the stress, and their coil simply "gave out" after a time.

What I'm most interested in is the fact Seven couldn't duplicate that technology.

Well, borg ships use them casually and frequently, they must have the requirements needed to use it, or the damage is not signifact or easily repairable (your body is "damaged" every day, and repairs when you sleep)

Right, but Borg ships are built to accomodate the stuff.

Starfleet ships can adapt existing Borg coils for short-term use. However, like I said earlier, even when it would've been to their decisive advantage, Seven/VGR couldn't fix a broken coil, nor could they "scratchbuild" one.

Also, I should re-emphasize the fact that shearing forces in transwarp isn't meant to be the meat of my argument. More important is the fact that, in spite of 7's knowledge, I don't see the Federation coming up with reliable transwarp or similar drives anytime soon.

[seanrobertson]

4--Even the pinnacle of Romulan-influenced starship design, Scimitar, didn't have a phase cloak. The Federation's prototype is probably lost

Even without a phasecloak the Scimatar is a formidable battleship. It has demonstrated shields and firepower that far exceed the Sovergein and can fire while cloaked.

I know that, Cat4k. Check the context of my earlier statement. I was talking about mass-production of phase cloaks, which even the advanced Scimitar didn't have.

[Solauren]

This is gonna probably get me blasted for using technobabble.

Isn't there something called a Phase compensator that LaForge used on Enterprise-D to 'put the Plasma back into phase after discharge'

It occurs to me a Phase Cloaked ship might be able to fire while phased cloak, if the weapons themselves had 'Phase Compenstators on them' so they are fired 'Back in Phase' with the rest of reality.

Equip Torpedoes with those that activate before impact with the Borg ship, and watch them go WTF for a while before they adapt.

Then again, have to wonder what would happen to a 'Phase Cloak Transphasic Torpedoes' set to randomly rotate the Transphasic nature amongst an infinte variety of frequencies and phase-states

[Sarevok]

Technobabble is not consistent. Phase can mean a lot of things like phase plasma, phase inducers, phase disruptors etc.