Size/Power/Influence of the Dominion?

[TheDarkling]

I remember his face getting alarmed for a moment when the guy mentions it.

Later on he asks the guy if he has had any dealings with the Ferengi when the space jelly fish turns up but I would describe he as fearful or alarmed (they haven't even met the Ferengi at this point remember).

[Stravo]

I remember his face getting alarmed for a moment when the guy mentions it.

Later on he asks the guy if he has had any dealings with the Ferengi when the space jelly fish turns up but I would describe he as fearful or alarmed (they haven't even met the Ferengi at this point remember).

You're right my bad, its been awhile since I've seen that episode, I just remember being very disappointed when finally seeing the Ferengi after all the buildup of how awful and evil they were.

[Bertie Wooster]

Whatever Picard said about the Ferengi in that episode is moot anyway. He knew nothing about them, and was simply slandering them to scare the Denab represenative.

Picard said in Episode 7:

Captain's log, stardate 41194.6. We are in pursuit of a starship of Ferengi design. Our mission is to intercept and recover a T-9 energy converter which the Ferengi stole from an unmanned monitor post on Gamma Tauri IV; a theft which automatic scanners recorded, providing us with the long awaited opportunity to make close contact with a Ferengi vessel. If we succeed in this chase, it will be Starfleet's first look at a life form which, discounting rumor, we know almost nothing about.

[Lord MJ]

You got the order right. Thats the how the Dominion fleet is structured.

Actually I think it was something like this.

Beatle
Battlecruiser (first seen in "Purgatory's Shadow" I don't think this was seen to often after that)
Battleship (First seen when Gul Dukat came to DS9 in the episode with Ghemor. Worf referred to it as a "Jem Hadar battleship." Later seen in call to arms and battle scenes during the war.)
"Super Battleship" (Called battleship, seen in Valiant.)

There have only ever been three Dominion ships shown. The small attackship, the Heavy Cruiser (which is the same as the one Dukat used to come to DS9), and the battleship.

There have been SOME scaling errors on the Heavy Cruiser and Battleship, but the intent is clear and so is their size.

There were the smaller "battlecruiser" ships. They were show much less frequently than the battleships. The only time they were prominently shown is "In Purgatory's Shadow." They look similar to the Jem Hadar battleships (Not the "super" battleship) but there were quite a few differences. Most notably that the wings were more V shaped than the battleships.

[Murazor]

Warp drive is too slow to allow big empires to be created. They probably have an volume similar in size to that of the Federation (that seems to be the bigger size a warp using power can reach without collapse) but more densely populated and industrialized in the militar way.

[Sokartawi]

Ok I have scavenged some pictures, and they indeed show that there are two different cruisers:


The following images are of the smaller variant, there are two noticable differences between this one and the 'normal' cuiser, the wings are in a v-position and it seems to have some extension on the bottom.






big pic:
http://members.lycos.nl/ankhesentapemka ... uiser4.jpg

Here are some normal cruisers for reference:



big pic:
http://members.lycos.nl/ankhesentapemka ... uiser3.jpg

The biggest mystery are still the huge battleships seen in orbit over Cardassia, some pics of them here:







Note the Breen Warship flying over it in the following two pics:





Here is a lowquality pic of the smaller variant of the battleship which the Valiant engaged:
http://members.lycos.nl/ankhesentapemka ... eship1.jpg

[Alyeska]

The large ship shown over Cardassia is nothing more then a VFX error. It is the exact same model as the 1.2km long battleship shown earlier in the episode and the apparent 5km long ship never made an appearance until the very end.

[Sokartawi]

I don't believe in that explanation. It would only be logical that the Dominion would construct more powerful ships, and they constructed the small battleship, why isn't it possible that they made a larger one as well? Especially since they were planning to take over homeworlds.

And there is a typo in your signature, I don't know if that's intentional or not...

[seanrobertson]

The large ship shown over Cardassia is nothing more then a VFX error. It is the exact same model as the 1.2km long battleship shown earlier in the episode and the apparent 5km long ship never made an appearance until the very end.

I agree the size differential is a bit silly--goofier, even, than the way KBoPs were sometimes treatd in TNG.

The downside is I hesitate to call anything an FX error *winces*. That seems like selective application of "suspension of disbelief."

In these sorts of cases that puts me in a hard place, so I usually try to focus on something else altogether

[Alyeska]

I don't believe in that explanation. It would only be logical that the Dominion would construct more powerful ships, and they constructed the small battleship, why isn't it possible that they made a larger one as well? Especially since they were planning to take over homeworlds.

And there is a typo in your signature, I don't know if that's intentional or not...

My signature is a direct quote of someone else.

As to the large battleship. The reason why that explination works is because we only ever see the 5km large ship in that single ship pan. The exact same model is used and shows the 1.2km ship in this same episode and all previous episodes. Furthermore once the 5km ship apparently appears, the 1.2km ship apparently disapears.

Logic tells us this is a VFX mistake.

However, your information on the Dominion cruisers is indeed correct. This tells us the Dominion had two different cruisers, but we can assume just one Battleship.

[Stravo]

I don't believe in that explanation. It would only be logical that the Dominion would construct more powerful ships, and they constructed the small battleship, why isn't it possible that they made a larger one as well? Especially since they were planning to take over homeworlds.

And there is a typo in your signature, I don't know if that's intentional or not...

My signature is a direct quote of someone else.

As to the large battleship. The reason why that explination works is because we only ever see the 5km large ship in that single ship pan. The exact same model is used and shows the 1.2km ship in this same episode and all previous episodes. Furthermore once the 5km ship apparently appears, the 1.2km ship apparently disapears.

Logic tells us this is a VFX mistake.

However, your information on the Dominion cruisers is indeed correct. This tells us the Dominion had two different cruisers, but we can assume just one Battleship.

For the record I agree completely with you Alyeska but if we were forced to exlpain it away in universe can we suggest an Executor like command ship that the Dominion kept in the Cardiasian system for most of the war?

[Alyeska]

It still doesn't change the fact that the 1.2km large ship just disapears at the very last moment and the 5km large ship appears. Also note that the Dominion does not mind loosing ships and resources as long as they fullfill a goal. Whenever they have had new ships, they imediately send them into action. So why have we never seen this 5km ship untill the last 5 minutes of the war?

[Uraniun235]

It still doesn't change the fact that the 1.2km large ship just disapears at the very last moment and the 5km large ship appears. Also note that the Dominion does not mind loosing ships and resources as long as they fullfill a goal. Whenever they have had new ships, they imediately send them into action. So why have we never seen this 5km ship untill the last 5 minutes of the war?

They may have been deployed to battles that were not shown on-screen.

[Alyeska]

It still doesn't change the fact that the 1.2km large ship just disapears at the very last moment and the 5km large ship appears. Also note that the Dominion does not mind loosing ships and resources as long as they fullfill a goal. Whenever they have had new ships, they imediately send them into action. So why have we never seen this 5km ship untill the last 5 minutes of the war?

They may have been deployed to battles that were not shown on-screen.

It is still extremely unlikely that we would only see the existance of the 5km ship at the very end of the last episode when it is the same physical model as the 1.2km ship.

If we are to accept every inconsistancy as a new ship class without further reference data that means there are shitloads of new ships. This includs a half dozen Warbirds, 2 or 3 Galor types, etc... Size inconsistency's are a known fact of life in most series. Automaticaly assuming new ship classes is stupid and brings a host of new problems, including engineering. Bernd from Ex Astris has identified multiple BoP size mistakes and if you take visuals litteraly there are a half dozen versions of the ship. This of course doesn't make any sense when we know there are only two versions of the BoP.

[seanrobertson]

It is still extremely unlikely that we would only see the existance of the 5km ship at the very end of the last episode when it is the same physical model as the 1.2km ship.

...Not to mention the fact that the "Valiant" battleship was still quite new when the series finale aired.

I do have to nitpick here just a bit, though, because I'm pretty sure the "Valiant"/"WYLB" battleship was purely a CGI construct.

As bad as it always sounds, I "know a guy" who worked in the same place as the DS9 model-makers; and IIRC, he told me the Jem'Hadar battlecruiser was the last big model that bunch built.

When I get the chance, I'll check with him to verify this. Believe it or not, he had the chance to take the Jem'Hadar battlecruiser home but didn't! (I guess the model, mostly resin, was quite heavy and a bit delicate to move around. Then again, it also would have been FREE! )

Needless to say, that does not change your conclusion. Regardless of the modeling medium, yes, both battleships are outwardly identical, differing only in scale.

If we are to accept every inconsistancy as a new ship class without further reference data that means there are shitloads of new ships. This includs a half dozen Warbirds, 2 or 3 Galor types, etc... Size inconsistency's are a known fact of life in most series. Automaticaly assuming new ship classes is stupid and brings a host of new problems, including engineering. Bernd from Ex Astris has identified multiple BoP size mistakes and if you take visuals litteraly there are a half dozen versions of the ship. This of course doesn't make any sense when we know there are only two versions of the BoP.

A few things Alyeska:

1--That first statement skirts on the edge of an appeal to consequences. Though we think that numerous scalings of a single planform is dumb (and it is), we nonetheless have the visuals that suggest just that.

2--Has the Warbird really been shown at so many scales, and how was this verified? Did you see how the scaling work was done?

I am curious because I've never really heard such a claim. I vaguely recall some discussion of 2 Warbird sizes at rec.arts.startrek.tech, but that was at least 7 years ago.

3--FWIW, there are a few Galor variants, even ignoring the Keldon. For instance, Riker mentions Type III Galors--"top of the line"--sometime in late TNG.

The three types might explain any apparent size disparities but, to my knowledge at least, the Galor was almost always shown at ~480m long. (?) Perhaps there are a handful of shots I simply don't remember?

4--Another nitpick: one of Bernd's associates actually did most of that scaling

Kidding aside, the work looked pretty good.

I've yet to verify it myself--something that might sound conceited but, I assure you, experience has shown is often necessary--but for the time being, I'm willing to accept his conclusions. Most are pretty clear-cut, after all, like the obviously (and oddly) gigantic "Defector" Birds.

What I might caution against is the claim, "There cannot be multiple types because there are [only two,] not multiple types." Depending on what source material we're willing to accept, that risks begging the question.

For instance, if we ran with the ST:E and its interpretation of B'Rel as the scout and K'Vort as the big cruiser, we'd be SOL: the only time we definitely saw the B'Rel, "Rascals," the visuals were recycled footage from "Yesterday's Enterprise"--the first appearance of the K'Vort cruisers!

In other words, those classes are the same size, so Mike Okuda's attempted rationalization, while an admirable effort, is somewhat off. Consequently, his conclusion is a poor source to determine the number of differently-sized Birds.

I think it's really up to us to figure out how many sizes make sense, and I'll have to leave a lot of that to you. I know I am not a lot of fun with the constant invocation of "full suspension of disbelief," so I've got to be content to observe.

[Gil Hamilton]

Just to throw this out there, if we assume multiple classes of ships based on differences in scale rather than them being the same ship but with VFX errors, should we assume there is a variant of the Klingon Bird of Prey running around that is tens of thousands of kilometers wide based on footage from STIV where Kirk and Gang go backwards around the sun to go back in time? Because I'm sure that Trekkies would like the Klingons to have a ship that could carry DeathStars in it's hull.

[Alyeska]

Just to throw this out there, if we assume multiple classes of ships based on differences in scale rather than them being the same ship but with VFX errors, should we assume there is a variant of the Klingon Bird of Prey running around that is tens of thousands of kilometers wide based on footage from STIV where Kirk and Gang go backwards around the sun to go back in time? Because I'm sure that Trekkies would like the Klingons to have a ship that could carry DeathStars in it's hull.

On the downside, that example shows us that Warp-9 is slower then light speed.

[seanrobertson]

Just to throw this out there, if we assume multiple classes of ships based on differences in scale rather than them being the same ship but with VFX errors, should we assume there is a variant of the Klingon Bird of Prey running around that is tens of thousands of kilometers wide...

LOL. Naw, because:

1--We already saw people walking in and out of the same ship.

Those people weren't hundreds of kilometers tall (Kirk is bigger than life, but not THAT big). The tallest of the bunch is well shy of 2m I'd wager.

That gives us a good basis by which we can get a ballpark estimate for the Bird, and it's safely short of 10,000 km+

2--The same ship landed on Vulcan and Earth, and it didn't take up most of either's hemisphere.

Particularly when it lands on Earth, we see it fit inside a park and under the Golden Gate Bridge. GGB and the park aren't quite big enough to accomodate the 10,000 km-plus wide Bird (The GGB comparison is actually an excellent way to scale the bugger, FWIW.)

Conclusion: when we see a ship through its warp field, what we see is not what we get.

As a result, for scaling purposes we'll want to look at ships which aren't travelling FTL. The less technobabble, the greater the accuracy of our observations.

[Gil Hamilton]

LOL. Naw, because:

1--We already saw people walking in and out of the same ship.

Those people weren't hundreds of kilometers tall (Kirk is bigger than life, but not THAT big). The tallest of the bunch is well shy of 2m I'd wager.

That gives us a good basis by which we can get a ballpark estimate for the Bird, and it's safely short of 10,000 km+

2--The same ship landed on Vulcan and Earth, and it didn't take up most of either's hemisphere.

Particularly when it lands on Earth, we see it fit inside a park and under the Golden Gate Bridge. GGB and the park aren't quite big enough to accomodate the 10,000 km-plus wide Bird (The GGB comparison is actually an excellent way to scale the bugger, FWIW.)

Conclusion: when we see a ship through its warp field, what we see is not what we get.

As a result, for scaling purposes we'll want to look at ships which aren't travelling FTL. The less technobabble, the greater the accuracy of our observations.

What if the ship that we saw land in the middle of San Fransisco was just a landing craftr and they've got the K'Penisenvy class Bird of Prey stashed behind Jupiter, hmmm? We can't say that there was a visual distortion after all, because neither the Sun, which it passed in front of or the stars were distorted. I sure didn't see any lensing effect, did you?

Beside, how do you fit two humpback whales, each of which are 50 to 55 feet long and probably not too happy to find themselves inside a fish bowl inside the BoP we see land in San Fransisco or pass under the Golden Gate brigde? A suprised bull humpback whale and his cow are not something you want in a tank made out of aluminum inside a cramped space. You might, physically get them inside the hull, but what compartment is big enough? Considering most of the ships length is skinny neck and drive section.

Also, the Bird of Prey wasn't travelling at FTL speeds. At Warp 9, given the warp scale, we wouldn't see it lumber around the Sun, even though given it's girth it would be travelling tremendously fast. We wouldn't even see it.

Before anyone starts bashing me, let me remind people that I'm point out in a humorous manner that you can't always suspend disbelief when it comes to visual effects.

[seanrobertson]

What if the ship that we saw land in the middle of San Fransisco was just a landing craftr and they've got the K'Penisenvy class Bird of Prey stashed behind Jupiter, hmmm?

I assume this is what you mean by humorous They only captured one ship, so where did the mighty K'Penisenvy come from? Qo'Pussy?

Kirk might've loved visiting that particular planet, but he didn't in the movies I saw

We can't say that there was a visual distortion after all, because neither the Sun, which it passed in front of or the stars were distorted. I sure didn't see any lensing effect, did you?

That's why I said an object inside the warp field could look weird. The warp field doesn't encompass Sol or distant stars, right?

Beside, how do you fit two humpback whales, each of which are 50 to 55 feet long and probably not too happy to find themselves inside a fish bowl inside the BoP we see land in San Fransisco or pass under the Golden Gate brigde? A suprised bull humpback whale and his cow are not something you want in a tank made out of aluminum inside a cramped space. You might, physically get them inside the hull, but what compartment is big enough? Considering most of the ships length is skinny neck and drive section.

Are you serious here, or kibbitzing again? If you're not:

The ship looked to be 109m long in a lot of shots. That's big enough to accomodate a 17m long whale, especially considering the neck and drive section together are a bit less than half the ship's length. Have a look at this shot of the studio model:

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans ... model1.jpg

From the tip of the bridge section to the base of the neck is 172 pixels. Excluding the two extensions around the impulse engine--the "tail"--is 198 pixels. Total length is 429 pix.

That's roughly 50 meters in which they could store a whale lengthwise. The actual room would be less, of course, due to the space occupied by a warp core and impulse engine (among other things), but there's no reason to assume the whales simply could not fit.

Also, the Bird of Prey wasn't travelling at FTL speeds. At Warp 9, given the warp scale, we wouldn't see it lumber around the Sun, even though given it's girth it would be travelling tremendously fast. We wouldn't even see it.

They told us it was travelling in excess of warp 9. Sulu was calling out the increasing warp factors.

We shouldn't have seen it, I agree, but by that point the time travel technobabble must've affected our observations.

Before anyone starts bashing me, let me remind people that I'm point out in a humorous manner that you can't always suspend disbelief when it comes to visual effects.

I won't bash you, though I obviously don't agree. I don't much like rationalizing such things, but I like that better than picking and choosing among the visuals according to what I think's proper.

[Gil Hamilton]

I assume this is what you mean by humorous They only captured one ship, so where did the mighty K'Penisenvy come from? Qo'Pussy?

Kirk might've loved visiting that particular planet, but he didn't in the movies I saw

I assume it was from a planet that translates from Klingon to "World of Tiny Members".

That's why I said an object inside the warp field could look weird. The warp field doesn't encompass Sol or distant stars, right?

But there should be a lensing effect. We should see a bubble around the Bird of Prey that is magnified too from our view of the Bird of Prey. Like we should see giant stars behind the Bird of Prey, because their light is being refracted too by the warp field when it passes through it.

Also, the Bird of Prey doesn't look oddly rounded. Put a drop of water on a penny. Not only is every thing magnified, but it is distorted due to the curve of the water drop. Likewise, if there is a bubble distorting the Bird of Prey is should be bent with the shape of the warp field.

Are you serious here, or kibbitzing again? If you're not:

The ship looked to be 109m long in a lot of shots. That's big enough to accomodate a 17m long whale, especially considering the neck and drive section together are a bit less than half the ship's length. Have a look at this shot of the studio model:

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans ... model1.jpg

From the tip of the bridge section to the base of the neck is 172 pixels. Excluding the two extensions around the impulse engine--the "tail"--is 198 pixels. Total length is 429 pix.

That's roughly 50 meters in which they could store a whale lengthwise. The actual room would be less, of course, due to the space occupied by a warp core and impulse engine (among other things), but there's no reason to assume the whales simply could not fit.

And how could they fit a 109 meter long ship in the middle of a park (or under the Golden Gate bridge for that matter, without someone bumping into it. They landed in the middle of a field, and you aren't going to find many fields that big in the middle of an urban park. Especially since it's the middle of summer and people are going to be going to said fields to sun bathe and throw frisbees and stuff.

They told us it was travelling in excess of warp 9. Sulu was calling out the increasing warp factors.

We shouldn't have seen it, I agree, but by that point the time travel technobabble must've affected our observations.

I think, according to how suspension of belief was explained to me, since the visuals contradict the dialogue, then we have to conclude that Sulu was lying or mistaken. Don't we, since it's a documentary and all that. All real.

I won't bash you, though I obviously don't agree. I don't much like rationalizing such things, but I like that better than picking and choosing among the visuals according to what I think's proper.

I wasn't adressing that to you, since you are usually a really polite debator. That was aimed at certain members of SD.net who tend to respond to posts they don't agree with "You fucking idiot! I can't believe that you could be so moronic for having that position! Any idiot knows... blah blah blah." like I kicked their dog. Just trying to head those people off.

[Gil Hamilton]

Incidently, could you post a picture of the Bird of Prey going under the Golden Gate Bridge? Because the Golden Gate Bridge is a big freaking bridge now that I look at the numbers. For instance, the main span in the suspension part of the bridge, which is what the BoP passed under, is 4200 feet long, or ~1280m and ~67m above the mean water level. We could probably scale the Bird of Prey that way.

EDIT: Never mind.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The downside is I hesitate to call anything an FX error *winces*. That seems like selective application of "suspension of disbelief."

In real life science, singular or sufficiently minor or few outliers of data when a much larger general trend is observable (and more importantly, predictable), the outliers are dismissed as procedural or instrumentational error.

In this case, under SOD, it would be sensible to assume some bits of film may have been tampered with. Mike also covers situations like the shifting size of the Defiant on the front page of the website.

[Gil Hamilton]

In this case, under SOD, it would be sensible to assume some bits of film may have been tampered with. Mike also covers situations like the shifting size of the Defiant on the front page of the website.

Question. Why should we assume that someone tampered with it? That's conceding that you can't treat what you are seeing as real, which kind of defeats the purpose of Suspending Disbelief in the first place.

[Alyeska]

This discussion is getting a little odd. We know that the visuals can have errors in them so that means we have to evaluate them from time to time. This is where the 1.2km and 5km Dominion ship discussion comes in as well as the BoP issue. The Defiant is also there, but its error rate is a little more acceptable. Its only ever been between 120m and 170m.