Did the Cardassians have it coming?

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2004-01-09 08:23pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Jeremy wrote:nothing like fucking a leper
I (along with most of the board I would hope) will have to take your word for it.

She does look weird with all the strange knobs over her face and chest...

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-01-09 09:09pm

Stravo wrote:If we were going to stick to the WWII analogy then Cardasia is more like Italy, a wananbe second rate power that joins the wrong side and gets the shit kicked out of it. Now all we need is to see Cardasia Prime in the future after the Federation occupation where Cardasians are busy speeding along mopeds going "Choi."

That's why I was pissed after VGR established contact with Starfleet from 'Lifeline' onwards; we never found out how the rebuilding of the Cardassian civilization was going.

I'm hoping that, if there is a Trek XI (and there's no reason for there not to be, even with the lackluster performance of 'Nemesis' at the box office; after all, the franchise has been most profitable for Paramount), I want the Cardassians to play a major role. Maybe have the film deal with Bajor's admission to the UFP and rogue Cardassian elements trying to stop it; could also work to bring DS9 on the silver screen.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-01-09 10:18pm

Well, I don't see much evidence of a private sector in the Federation. When you see Federation colonies, you don't see any advertising of goods or services. Nobody on Starfleet ships owns anything with a brand name, not even a foreign brand. Nobody works for a private company. Whenever they encounter representatives of cultures that still have private enterprise, Starfleet personnel are either dismissive or suspicious of them, as if capitalism is barbaric or offensive. To an extent it is understandable, since Star Trek is not about the private sector. However, they manage never to encounter anything produced by private capitalism. It would seem to indicate such things don't exist, so who is producing the goods? Replicators don't operate in a vacuum; someone has to grow the biomass that is made into food in a replicator. Someone has to mine the metal from which they build ships. Someone has to manufacture the fabric from which uniforms and upholstery are made. This stuff doesn't just magically appear. If it's not privately-owned industry that is maufacturing these items, who is? The Federation itself? If so, the Federation is Marxist. You can call it socialism or communism, but both are repressive. I know I wouldn't want to live under either any more than I'd want to live under the less decorous tyrannies of their neighbors.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-09 10:47pm

TheDarkling wrote:The Federation isn't communist, Earth seems to lean towards heavy socialism but that is it

I do like the way you counter my lengthy explanation of why it fits Marxist ideology by simply stating "no, it doesn't!"

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-09 11:03pm

CDiehl wrote:Well, I don't see much evidence of a private sector in the Federation. When you see Federation colonies, you don't see any advertising of goods or services.

And exactly how many Federation colonies have we seen, and exactly how long have we spent on these worlds, I think you will find the numbers to be surprisingly low.

Nobody on Starfleet ships owns anything with a brand name, not even a foreign brand. Nobody works for a private company.

Kasidy Yates worked for herself, as did Okona and the crashed freighter pilots on Angel one seemed to as well, the Picards family, Sisko's restaurant, his neighbour the book shop and so on.

As for brand names the Picard has their own vintage

Whenever they encounter representatives of cultures that still have private enterprise, Starfleet personnel are either dismissive or suspicious of them, as if capitalism is barbaric or offensive.

That is bull, the Federation doesn't like the pure greed worshiping feregi but that is hardly a shock consider very few people today would approve of what the Ferengi get up to however the other races which practice such commerce aren't reviled in the same way.

To an extent it is understandable, since Star Trek is not about the private sector. However, they manage never to encounter anything
produced by private capitalism.

New Orleans still has book stores and restaurants (privately owned), France still has privately owned Vineyards and San Fran still has cafes and bars.

It would seem to indicate such things don't exist, so who is producing the goods? Replicators don't operate in a vacuum; someone has to grow the biomass that is made into food in a replicator.

Do replicatiors require biomass to replicate food? (Could you tell me which episode this is from please) and what makes you think that this biomass growth isn't largely automated and finally how do we know farmers don't grow it (there must still be farmers and we know for a fact Vintners still exist).

Someone has to mine the metal from which they build ships. Someone has to manufacture the fabric from which uniforms and upholstery are made.

Garments can be replicated, I'm not sure about the metal but the same applies as above.

If it's not privately-owned industry that is maufacturing these items, who is? The Federation itself? If so, the Federation is Marxist.

There are a number of services and industries that are owned (or were once owned) in free market economies, if the Federation wholly owns a few vital industries that hardly proves they are Marxists.

You can call it socialism or communism,

but you prefer to give such people the title evil pinko commies right?

but both are repressive. I know I wouldn't want to live under either any more than I'd want to live under the less decorous tyrannies of their neighbors.

Then you sir are either unfamiliar with trek or an idiot.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 2004-01-09 11:04pm

One would think you would have gotten use to that by now.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-09 11:14pm

Darth Wong wrote: I do like the way you counter my lengthy explanation of why it fits Marxist ideology by simply stating "no, it doesn't!"

Thanks I was particularly proud of that myself.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-09 11:45pm

TheDarkling wrote:Kasidy Yates worked for herself, as did Okona and the crashed freighter pilots on Angel one seemed to as well, the Picards family, Sisko's restaurant, his neighbour the book shop and so on.

Do you believe that no one in the Soviet Union had his own place, or what appeared to be a job? Do you believe that there were no aircraft design bureaus with family names on them in the Soviet Union? Do you know what MiG stands for? How much do you know about communism?

What they do not have under Communism is investment.

In the Federation, no one is particularly interested in making more than a subsistence income because you can't really use it for that much. Through whatever means, they have somehow suppressed the ability of people to become fat, lazy, and ostentatiously wealthy. There are no big money-hungry corporations, no Wall Street, etc. And it's not just a matter of "the films not showing them", which would otherwise be a reasonable argument; Picard expressed outright befuddlement at the very concept of investments when confronted with it in "The Neutral Zone".

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-01-10 07:40am

CDiehl wrote: You can call it socialism or communism, but both are repressive

The Red Menace strikes back. Only an open question. Do you think that Anthony Blair, prime minister of the United Kingdom, is a repressive dictator? Because the Labor Party he belongs to is a part of the European socialist Party.

BabelHuber · Post by **BabelHuber** » 2004-01-10 08:22am

The Red Menace strikes back. Only an open question. Do you think that Anthony Blair, prime minister of the United Kingdom, is a repressive dictator? Because the Labor Party he belongs to is a part of the European socialist Party.

This is just the name of the party, which evolved historically. The former German Socialists renamed themselves about 100 years ago into social democrats, which fits much better. A lot of European parties still name themselves socialists, but they are clearly social democrats. Or have you ever seen French or British 'socialists' trying to get rid of the democratic system when they were elected?

And nowadays, even social democrats, like in the UK or in Germany, tend to be influenced by liberal ideas and leave the original concept of a social democracy behind since this concept doesn't seem to work anymore in reality.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2004-01-11 12:32am

Darth Wong wrote:Through whatever means, they have somehow suppressed the ability of people to become fat, lazy, and ostentatiously wealthy.

Well, the "fat" part might not be totally accurate.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-01-11 03:35am

Neither Okona nor Yates worked in Federation territory. The Odin probably didn't either, or they'd have flown their escape pods back to a Federation world. Also, in no episode of Star Trek that I have ever seen (and I have seen at least half the episodes of Star Trek, TNG and DS9) do we see a planet's orbital space teeming with ships coming and going. This is especially glaring on planets like Earth, the capital of the Federation. This would seem to indicate a lack of commerce, which is a big reason why people travel.

Many of the examples cited to counter my comments are singular and atypical. What other brands or labels of wine do we see besides the Picard brand? What brand of shaver does LaForge use? Who made Riker's trombone? From whom does Joe Sisko get shrimp for his restaurant? Who built Data's lab equipment? Who made the hyposprays, tricorders, isolinear chips and dilithium crystals the Enterprise carries? They didn't pull these items out of their asses and they didn't spring fully formed from the void. I'm sure replicators can make them, but someone had to write the programs or build the basic items used as the models for the replicators. If there aren't private concerns doing this, even if it's just a bunch of one-man companies working out of their houses, then that leaves the Federation itself. That, by definition, is Marxism.

Why is Marxism so bad? It denies people the right to use their property to gain more property, equating all such activities to a form of exploitation, even if all involved are satisfied with the exchange. It grants to the government, in the alleged name of "the People" the power to micromanage the use of property, which gives it a near-total monopoly on the provision of goods and services. This gives the government near-total power over the lives and deaths of everyone in their territory. A government that holds such a monopoly on food production can choose to starve anyone and those it starves have little or no alternatives. A government that holds such a monopoly on high technology can turn any place into a medieval country whenever they choose. Who would you trust with that much power? How could you check it? I have said nothing against anyone who believes this is a good idea, nor did I before. If you think this is a wonderful idea, by all means, live under it and be happy. However, do not presume to force it on people who do not want it.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-11 03:46am

TheDarkling wrote:The Federation isn't communist, Earth seems to lean towards heavy socialism but that is it

Whats the difference between the two ?

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-01-11 05:02am

CDiehl wrote:Also, in no episode of Star Trek that I have ever seen (and I have seen at least half the episodes of Star Trek, TNG and DS9) do we see a planet's orbital space teeming with ships coming and going.

Orbital space is pretty big. Besides, don't you think they'd want to segregate the civilian traffic from the Starfleet traffic so as to keep them out of each other's way?

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-01-11 07:42am

BabelHuber wrote: This is just the name of the party, which evolved historically. The former German Socialists renamed themselves about 100 years ago into social democrats, which fits much better. A lot of European parties still name themselves socialists, but they are clearly social democrats. Or have you ever seen French or British 'socialists' trying to get rid of the democratic system when they were elected?

And nowadays, even social democrats, like in the UK or in Germany, tend to be influenced by liberal ideas and leave the original concept of a social democracy behind since this concept doesn't seem to work anymore in reality.

If you are using socialist for the hard line dictatorial systems, I would agree that social democrats are a completely different thing.
And I must agree with you about the neoliberalist contamination that comes from the Chicago Boys, although I think that nobody has even tried to use the model since the oil crisis with the exception of the Escandinavians... were it still works. Quite well, I may add.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-11 01:13pm

Neither Okona nor Yates worked in Federation territory.

They were outside on Federation space yes but they were still Fed citizens.
Sisko buys land on Bajor (which initially he said he would do after Bajor entered the Federation but later on decide to buy the land first) showing ownership of land wouldn't be impeded after Bajor joined the Federation, Bashir's parents have enough cash to pay an alien doctors to upgrade their child and so on - personal ownership of transportation, items or property has not been stopped in the Federation.

Also, in no episode of Star Trek that I have ever seen (and I have seen at least half the episodes of Star Trek, TNG and DS9) do we see a planet's orbital space teeming with ships coming and going.

This is true for worlds during TOS and worlds TNG+ which we know aren't communist so therefore proves nothing, as has been pointed out space is big (even narrowed to the locale of a planets orbit) and ships are small, it would also make sense to separate the traffic but I don't credit Starfleet with such intelligence.

This is especially glaring on planets like Earth, the capital of the Federation. This would seem to indicate a lack of commerce, which is a big reason why people travel.

The Federation does have commerce of the few episodes we have been on Earth (I would guess 10 or below) we have seen a restaurant, a farm, a cafe and a book store.

Many of the examples cited to counter my comments are singular and atypical.

No, you (and others) say they are but you have nothing to back this claim up other than wishful thinking in order to make your theory fit.

What other brands or labels of wine do we see besides the Picard brand?

What other wine have we seen? Why assume it is just Picard’s wine? You must prove it is unique not I.

What brand of shaver does LaForge use?

“Replicator I would like a shaver please.”

Who made Riker's trombone?

Computer I would like a Trombone.

From whom does Joe Sisko get shrimp for his restaurant?

Fishermen (or some automated aquatic farm), I would guess

Who built Data's lab equipment? Who made the hyposprays, tricorders, isolinear chips and dilithium crystals the Enterprise carries?

Starfleet would be my guess (nationalised defence infrastructure is hardly a sign of Communism).

If there aren't private concerns doing this, even if it's just a bunch of one-man companies working out of their houses, then that leaves the Federation itself. That, by definition, is Marxism.

Except you have yet to prove that, replicator patterns may be created by the Federation since food is a basic need (which a socialist government could provide, like free health care or (un)employment subsidises) however we know people can get access to real food and I see no evidence that the federation alone supplies this.

All I really see is that mass production has been taken over by the replicators and replicators are supplied by the government, in this way you could say that mass production has been nationalised ( at least to a degree) so you get your microwavable meals, shaving foam and generic clothing from the replicators however if you want a particularly fine meal you still go to a proper chef (who in turn goes to an actual farmer), you want a well tailored suit you go to a tailor and you want a particularly fine Clarinet you go to a master crafts man and these are all still private enterprises. The advent of the replicators (and increasing levels of automation elsewhere) has led to unskilled work largely being eliminated (a trend seen in modern nations except instead of the work being given to a replicators it is given to a 12 year old in a Chinese sweat shop or to a robotic arm in a factory, although obviously what I am proposing takes this idea to a much further extent) and this combined with an increase in the minimum standard of living (going from socialist teaching, and to clarify when I say socialist I mean in the same manner as wanting nationalised health, transportation, high benefits i.e. what is considered socialism in Europe’s modern political spectrum) means that people have most of their basic necessities provided for and any extras they want can be acquired by working in a job which they enjoy (be it adventuring around the galaxy, cooking, writing or keeping the ancestral family farm running).

Snipped complaints about Communism

That is all very true with easily corruptible governments (which just about covers all governments including humans) but for some reason the Federation seems to work fine with it since it works (implausible as it would be with human behaviour) I see no problem with it, no body starves of goes homeless, everybody lives a life of luxury, most menial jobs seem to be gone and the government doesn't abuse its power.

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2004-01-11 05:12pm

Who actually cares what form of government the Federation is? Half (in fact the majority) of the time we only ever see things from Starfleet's perspective anyway, on a ship that's never at a Fed world long enough to build a complete picture of the government anyway. The important things are: Do they live in poverty? Is disease rampent? What's the medcare and education like? Are there enough jobs? What is the quality of life?

As for the Cardassian question- well, certainly Dukat himself deserved his end- he oversaw the deaths of thousands of Bajorans, openly admitted to wanting to exterminate them in 'Waltz', he was the one who sold Cardassia to the Dominon, and then there was his little 'hey palwraiths, lets kill everyone!' stint.

Sadly, on the points of Bajor and the Dominion, the Cardassian military was largely with him. So in terms of a military defeat, what happened to the Cardassians was just. However, 600 million Cardassians wiped out by the Dominion, simply because the years of military and mis-rule had left them in that corner- they didn't deserve that.

Rhoades · Post by **Rhoades** » 2004-01-11 10:43pm

Sothis wrote:Who actually cares what form of government the Federation is?

We all do, that's the purpose of these type of debates

Half (in fact the majority) of the time we only ever see things from Starfleet's perspective anyway, on a ship that's never at a Fed world long enough to build a complete picture of the government anyway. The important things are: Do they live in poverty?

Yes. Well, actually no. There are some colonies that once hailed from Earth, and their citizen even managed to enroll in Starfleet. But once their world went down the shitter, they were severed from all relations with the Federation. Some claim that this colony doesn't count for Federation poverty to the hooked-on-phonics crowd, because it was never spelled out in front of them.

In that Mosiac novel. Wasn't there a quote between the standard of living of Earth's compared to some off-beat planet?

Is disease rampent?

Entire colonies can fall under a plague, and Starfleet can classify any knowledge of the event. I'd like to a government that doesn't have complete control of communications and news media do that. Plus, quite a few episode used the deadly virus plot. Certainly dispels the loftly claim that the Federation eliminated poverty, as many characters believe.

What's the medcare and education like?

These are areas that are hard to judge. The only medcare and education we've seen take place onboard military starships. I'd imagine that medicare is easy to access to the general public. The only education we see is onbaord starships, military academies, and words of rehabitations camps for criminals and POWs.

Are there enough jobs? What is the quality of life?

Again hard to say.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-01-11 11:54pm

But once their world went down the shitter, they were severed from all relations with the Federation.

Er, it went down the shitter, and then they told the Federation never to come around again. Quite a difference from "the Federation cut them off."

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-01-12 12:05am

TheDarkling wrote:
CDiehl wrote:Neither Okona nor Yates worked in Federation territory.
They were outside on Federation space yes but they were still Fed citizens.

And you do not see the relevance of Federation citizens conducting business outside of Federation territory, and by extension outside Federation law and jurisdiction? The Maquis were federation citizens too, until they broke away. That didn't stop Starfleet from hunting them down, inspite of the fact they severed formal ties with the government, and were conducting a private war against the Cardassian occupiers.

TheDarkling wrote:Sisko buys land on Bajor (which initially he said he would do after Bajor entered the Federation but later on decide to buy the land first) showing ownership of land wouldn't be impeded after Bajor joined the Federation,

You fail to mention how Sisko is the Emissary of the Prophets, the Bajor's Holy Man. I doubt he so much bought it as was given it by the fundie Bajorans. Furthermore, even in Communist states people have to live somewhere. People in the Inner Party are allowed luxuries like that, and Sisko is certainly a war hero. Oh, and need I point out how Sisko buying land on an alien planet actually supports the position that Earth is a communist state?

TheDarkling wrote:Bashir's parents have enough cash to pay an alien doctors to upgrade their child and so on

You neglect to mention that the operation was illegal in the first place. Besides, this doesn't actually prove your position at all.

TheDarkling wrote:personal ownership of transportation, items or property has not been stopped in the Federation.

Who owns his or her own transport? Kassidy owned her ship, and did her business outside of Federation territory. Okona was a self-confessed rogue - since when do rogues care about authority? Anyone else beside them, who do their business inside Federation territory? Hey, what about Jake Sisko? Nope, needs to book transport - or get's driven by his dad in a runabout. All his publications get beamed out by subspace transmitters - which funnily enough are owned by the Federation.

TheDarkling wrote:
Cdiehl wrote:Also, in no episode of Star Trek that I have ever seen (and I have seen at least half the episodes of Star Trek, TNG and DS9) do we see a planet's orbital space teeming with ships coming and going.
This is true for worlds during TOS and worlds TNG+ which we know aren't communist so therefore proves nothing,

Your opinion doesn't equal fact.

as has been pointed out space is big (even narrowed to the locale of a planets orbit) and ships are small, it would also make sense to separate the traffic but I don't credit Starfleet with such intelligence.

We should be able to see something, but we don't.

TheDarkling wrote:
CDiehl wrote:This is especially glaring on planets like Earth, the capital of the Federation. This would seem to indicate a lack of commerce, which is a big reason why people travel.
The Federation does have commerce of the few episodes we have been on Earth (I would guess 10 or below) we have seen a restaurant, a farm, a cafe and a book store.

These things existed under a Communist state, y'know. What CDiehl was referring to was travel by tourists, something we don't see.

The Darkling wrote:
CDiehl wrote:]Many of the examples cited to counter my comments are singular and atypical.
No, you (and others) say they are but you have nothing to back this claim up other than wishful thinking in order to make your theory fit.

Bollocks. The facts fit the theory, whereas your counter-claims don't significantly prove your position.

What brand of shaver does LaForge use?
?Replicator I would like a shaver please.?

Yay! Magic Replicator, replicate my problems awwaaaay... Oh wait, that doesn't prove anything, does it?

Who made Riker's trombone?
Computer I would like a Trombone.

See above.

TheDarkling wrote:
If there aren't private concerns doing this, even if it's just a bunch of one-man companies working out of their houses, then that leaves the Federation itself. That, by definition, is Marxism.
Except you have yet to prove that, replicator patterns may be created by the Federation since food is a basic need (which a socialist government could provide, like free health care or (un)employment subsidises) however we know people can get access to real food and I see no evidence that the federation alone supplies this.

Except that culturally fed civilians have an aversion to "real" food, as evidenced by Keiko O'Brian's comment in Data's Day:

O'BRIEN: I can still remember the aromas when my mother was cooking...
KEIKO: She cooked?
O'BRIEN: She didn't believe in a replicator. She thought real food was more nutritious.
KEIKO (with mild distaste): She handled... real meat... touched it and cut it?

TheDarklin wrote:...means that people have most of their basic necessities provided for and any extras they want can be acquired by working in a job which they enjoy (be it adventuring around the galaxy, cooking, writing or keeping the ancestral family farm running).

Working in a job? Ah cool - so where's the paycheck? Picard, Riker et al "work" in a "job" which one assumes is high-risk; therefore, they should get a paycheck at the end of the week, or fortnight or something. But they don't. No-one in Grandpa Sisko's restaurant asks for the bill. The Picard family doesn't seem to export their wine (if, as you say, it's a business). I can't remember Jake or the Doctor getting commissions for their publications. Vash adventured the galaxy, getting relics from several civilisations. What does she do when she returns to the AQ? Holds a private auction, run by Quark, a Ferengi citizen, so she can keep the profits for herself and not have to "donate" the items to the Daystrom Institute.

TheDarkling wrote:
Snipped complaints about Communism
That is all very true with easily corruptible governments (which just about covers all governments including humans) but for some reason the Federation seems to work fine with it since it works (implausible as it would be with human behaviour) I see no problem with it, no body starves of goes homeless, everybody lives a life of luxury, most menial jobs seem to be gone and the government doesn't abuse its power.

Emphasis mine.

Nobody starves? Nobody goes homeless? What about the citizens of Turkana (Tasha Yar's homeplanet?) She looked pretty homeless, and was constantly on the run by rape gangs. Now, I know what you're going to say: "Turkana wasn't a federation world! It doesn't count!" Well, sorry but it was a federation world - it severed contact, yes - but it was a federation world.

Everybody lives a life of luxury? If so, then why don't we see examples of private ownership of the following 2 items: Spaceships and Fancy Clothing? No-one has their own ship, and everyone wears the same crappy one-piece jumpsuit. No-one wears furs anymore, or some kind of armani suit, or in fact anything "expensive." People wear luxury on their sleeves, and ride it to town. No-one does this in the federation.

Most menial jobs seem to be gone? Replaced by the Magic All-powerful Replicator, yes? Even magic-tech has its limits. Where does the biomass come from to make replicated dinner? What about the materials to make replicated infrastructure? What about the power generators to power the replicators? Where does all that come from?

The government doesn't abuse its power? Bullshit. It keeps plague outbreaks classified, whole colonies are abandoned to the Cardassians, you can't make any communique without going through Starfleet monitored channels, you can't go anywhere without booking passage, you can't do business inside the Federation, you can own property but you can't invest in it, a concept Picard couldn't even recognise. Starfleet's ability to defend it's planets are laughable, to say the least. We see capital ships the size of the Enterprise being used to ferry colonists. Where are the privately owned transport ships?

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2004-01-12 01:31am

As regards small businesses pursued on Earth, such as the Picard family's vinyard or Joseph Sisko's restaurant:

Hard-won, self-acquired, self-earned property! Do you mean the property of the petty artisan and of the small peasant, a form of property that preceded the bourgeois form? There is no need to abolish that; the development of industry has to a great extent already destroyed it, and is still destroying it daily.

-- Manifest der Kommunistischen Partei, Part II: Proletarians and Communists

As Messrs. Marx and Engels quite literally said that small businesses need not be abolished for the accomplishment of the Communist state, the existence of such businesses cannot be taken as evidence against the practice of Marxism-Leninism in the United Federation of Planets. Indeed, Messrs. Marx and Engels stated rather unambiguously that it is not property altogether that they desired to abolish, but rather "bourgeois private property", i.e., capitalism. Ownership of land is hardly indicative of the investment of capital.

PUBLIUS

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-01-12 01:46am

I wonder what's behind the vehemence that some defenders of the non-Communist Federation is? Are they afraid the Federation will be stained by the historic horrors of the communist form of government. That's just silly. Roddenberry himself has stated many times that humanity is simply BETTER than it ever has been. The main opposition to Communism working is human nature itself, a human nature that Capitalism recognizes and works with and one that leads to the corruption of the Communist/Socilaist ideals. But if humans are instrinsicly better then why wouldn't the communist form of government work? Why the aversion to it?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-12 01:52am

I think the question is if it could be properly implemented such as in Star Trek would communism be a better system than capitalism ? Personaly I think not. The idea of everything owned by the state is unacceptable for me.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-01-12 05:00am

Why the aversion to it?

Because idealism in sci-fi is not fashionable.

Except that culturally fed civilians have an aversion to "real" food, as evidenced by Keiko O'Brian's comment in Data's Day:

O'BRIEN: I can still remember the aromas when my mother was cooking...
KEIKO: She cooked?
O'BRIEN: She didn't believe in a replicator. She thought real food was more nutritious.
KEIKO (with mild distaste): She handled... real meat... touched it and cut it?

I don't think that's so much a "real food" aversion as it is a "real meat" aversion... people of the future becoming so accustomed to a very sanitized lifestyle that the thought of handling dead flesh in even such a clean form as cut meat becomes very repulsive to them.

We know that at least some people in the Federation consider it barbaric to kill animals for food when they have the replicator at their disposal... this could also be animal rights taking hold in the future.

I'm pretty sure the concept isn't unique to Keiko O'Brien... I could swear I've read other sci-fi where someone was revolted at the thought of eating real meat, having become accustomed to their sanitized imitation/substitute food. I don't think it's necessarily a sign of an oppressive government.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-12 07:07am

Stravo wrote:I wonder what's behind the vehemence that some defenders of the non-Communist Federation is? Are they afraid the Federation will be stained by the historic horrors of the communist form of government. That's just silly. Roddenberry himself has stated many times that humanity is simply BETTER than it ever has been. The main opposition to Communism working is human nature itself, a human nature that Capitalism recognizes and works with and one that leads to the corruption of the Communist/Socilaist ideals. But if humans are instrinsicly better then why wouldn't the communist form of government work? Why the aversion to it?

I have no real aversion to it but it simply doesn’t fit with what we see on screen, that being said people do think communism = evil, with some alleging that the Federation must use mind control technology to make it work because they don't buy the Humanity is better idea.