Principle behind practical Borg drone KE shielding...

[Robert Walper]

I know one of the strongest arguements(aside from not existing ) against Borg KE sheilding is dealing with imparted momentum from incoming projectiles.

Borg personal shields are body conforming; is there a problem I'm not aware of that would make said KE shield using the drone's own body as a brace a bad idea?

For example, say someone fired off a handgun at a drone's chest. It's personal shield physically stops said projectile, but there is momentum to deal with. Couldn't that be imparted to the drone's upper chest by the pesonal shield bracing itself on the drones body?

[Sarevok]

For example, say someone fired off a handgun at a drone's chest. It's personal shield physically stops said projectile, but there is momentum to deal with. Couldn't that be imparted to the drone's upper chest by the pesonal shield bracing itself on the drones body?

Yes it can be but the drone will feel like being hit by a sledgehammer. A similar thing happens with modern day bullet proof vests. Even if bullets dont pierce the vest they can break bones and cause massive internal injuries due to the high speed impact.

[Crazedwraith]

The sheild generator would have to be attached to sumthing ie the drones flesh, the momentum would probs ripp free the genarator and cause massive internal infuries.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

But the generator itself is internal. THe momentum will be transfered to it, and naturally bracing the momentum of bullets on internal organs and such would be harmful.

[Robert Walper]

There seems to be some confusion on what I'm proposing. It would seem clarification is in order.

We know the arguement about physical impacts ripping an shield implant from place or moving it sufficiently to cause fatal internal injuries to a Borg drone. This is a valid point, but this does bring up the question of how much leeway a emitter has for movement, and how much distance is between a drone's outer body and existing shield bubble.

However, my point is that we're assuming this theortical KE shield would not move the implant emitter, but instead transfer the momentum entirely(or virtually so) to the Borg drones body, not the emitter. This means that the distance between the existing shield and the drone's outer body is so small that physical impacts force the shield(which conforms to body shape already) to use the mass of the Borg drone itself as a brace for said impact.

Essentially, this would be come a "bullet proof" vest in the form of an energy shield. Penetration is stopped, impact isn't.

Points brought up:

-breaking bones and heavy brusing is a valid point. However, we should take into account that Borg drones do possess body armor which should and would absorb some of the impact, reducing said injuries. Essentially, this would be like a double bullet proof vest. The energy shield stops the projectile, and the conventional body armor, undamaged, can absorb alot of the impact.
-Borg drones have nanoprobes throughout their entire body, which have canonly been shown, on multiple occasions, to repair minor and major physical damage to organisms, including drones. Thus, injuries sustained by such impacts could be repaired this way, while said "shield vest" is still operational.

More importantly, because of the nature of shielding, said impact should be distributed quite well.

[Robert Walper]

But the generator itself is internal. THe momentum will be transfered to it, and naturally bracing the momentum of bullets on internal organs and such would be harmful.

The proposed scenario is that the emitter is moved very little or virtually not at all, by virtue of the body conforming shielding being close enough to the drone's body to prevent said emitter from moving enough to cause damage.

So far as I understand it, this would be equivalent to an energy based bullet proof vest, with additional conventional armor underneath said shield helping absorb impact. Coupled with the Borg drone's regenerative abilities, they could theoritically take a much more impressive pounding than normal bullet proof vest victims.

[Illuminatus Primus]

If you're saying that the shield transfers momentum uniformly throughout the drone (analogous to inertial compensators?), you'd expect the momentum of a whole drone to be the same as the bullet hitting it.

Anyone want to figure how a 5.56 x 45 mm NATO would throw a drone according to this?

[The Third Man]

Anyone want to figure how a 5.56 x 45 mm NATO would throw a drone according to this?

About as far as the guy who fired the bullet is thrown by the recoil?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Rob: Then wouldn't the shield come into contact with the body?

[Gil Hamilton]

Well, if the shield generator was connected to the front of a breastplate, the generator would jerk back against the plate and the plate would jump back. It would distribute the force of the blow across the breastplate, and if the breastplate was heavy enough, the recoil might not be too vicious. This is the idea behind platemail, incidently. The two problems is that, one, it will still ruin your shit if you get hit hard enough, like say, from a warhammer or a bullet. Warriors historically have been killed stright through full plate armor from a stiff hit from a war axe or polearm. Secondly, the Borg don't seem to have solid armor, per se, but something that appears to be leather and/or rubber with instruments all over it. In First Contact, when Picard dug some of the Borgs bits out of the one we shot, it looked more like leather than a stiff material.

[Robert Walper]

Rob: Then wouldn't the shield come into contact with the body?

This is the entire premise. The idea is that with the shield contacting the outer body, protected somewhat by existing armor, imparted momentum is transferred to the Borg drone, not the emitter, therefore the KE shielding becomes practical in this manner.

Note: forcefields that block matter have been canonly shown to be easily tolerated physically touching a person, even for a extended duration.

Essentially, the KE shield functions as a vest with the body not being penetrated, but still absorbing the impact. Couple this with Borg armor underneath said "vest", and Borg regeneration abilities, they could potentially take quite a pounding if they employed this technology.

BTW, I'm not assuming the Borg have this technology nor have or will employ it. This is a theoritical discussion about the practical nature of a KE shield.

[Robert Walper]

Well, if the shield generator was connected to the front of a breastplate, the generator would jerk back against the plate and the plate would jump back.

This is not what I'm proposing. The shield emitter would still be in the body. It could even be free floating in this scenario, not attached to anything. However, the shield itself makes contact with the drone's body, thus the emitter is not moved. Anything strong enough to move the drone's body would still not move the emitter, just the drone's body.

It would distribute the force of the blow across the breastplate, and if the breastplate was heavy enough, the recoil might not be too vicious.

Essentially this is what would happen, the only difference being the emitter is still in the drone's body. Only the shield itself is braced against the outer body. The emitter could be free floating but still not move, even if enough force is applied to throw the drone backward. Penetration is prevented, impact is not.

This is the idea behind platemail, incidently. The two problems is that, one, it will still ruin your shit if you get hit hard enough,

I'm not implying this is going to be a no limits application of a KE shield.

like say, from a warhammer or a bullet. Warriors historically have been killed stright through full plate armor from a stiff hit from a war axe or polearm. Secondly, the Borg don't seem to have solid armor, per se, but something that appears to be leather and/or rubber with instruments all over it.

But it would provide a cushioning of sorts as the shield is physically pushing against the drone.

In First Contact, when Picard dug some of the Borgs bits out of the one we shot, it looked more like leather than a stiff material.

I'm not claiming Borg armor is impressive.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I suggest you think really hard and figure out why having a KE shield coming into regular contact with the physical body it's supposed to be protecting is rather stupid...

[Robert Walper]

Anyone want to figure how a 5.56 x 45 mm NATO would throw a drone according to this?

About as far as the guy who fired the bullet is thrown by the recoil?

Exactly. The imparted momentum cannot be greater than the recoil of said weapon. If the drone is caught off balance, it might topple over, but penetration by said projectiles is prevented.

[Gil Hamilton]

Robert, I wasn't responding you you directly, I was trying to think of a way to make KE shielding work. Putting it on the outside of a stiff breastplate to distribute the hit like plate armor is one thought, though I was also pointing out weaknesses in that premise.

Putting the emitter inside the drones body is the right way to go for massive internal damage to your drone.

[Robert Walper]

I suggest you think really hard and figure out why having a KE shield coming into regular contact with the physical body it's supposed to be protecting is rather stupid...

Explain it to me, since I just finished pointing out exteneded contact with a forcefield can be tolerated easily enough by a person's skin, never mind a person who has protective covering over said skin.

I'll try and look up the episode name if you insist, but the example in question was in STTNG. A prisoner in the E-D's brig ran his hand across the forcefield for an extended amount of time. He didn't seem to be bothered by it in the least.

[Robert Walper]

Robert, I wasn't responding you you directly, I was trying to think of a way to make KE shielding work. Putting it on the outside of a stiff breastplate to distribute the hit like plate armor is one thought, though I was also pointing out weaknesses in that premise.

My bad. Sorry.

But we seem to share the same basic idea. The shield acts like a solid projectile vest, with the outer body, or armor, taking the impact. Our only difference was placement of said emitter. I simply pointed out the emitter does not need to be on outside of the drone.

The emitter being on the outside is actually a bad idea, since it provides a focal point for imparted momentum, vastly smaller than the surface area of existing shield.

[Gil Hamilton]

My bad. Sorry.

No problem.

But we seem to share the same basic idea. The shield acts like a solid projectile vest, with the outer body, or armor, taking the impact. Our only difference was placement of said emitter. I simply pointed out the emitter does not need to be on outside of the drone.

The emitter being on the outside is actually a bad idea, since it provides a focal point for imparted momentum, vastly smaller than the surface area of existing shield.

I don't like the idea of physically putting it inside the drones body. The idea is to keep that imparted moment away from the wearers tender flesh, and putting the device inside the body means that it has nowhere to go except the body. Putting the shield emitter physically on top of a breastplate with approprate bracing to the plate means that you can distribute force evenly over the surface of the plate. A good foam or rubber padding that doesn't transfer motion well underneath that could turn a deadly event into a survivable one. It would be thick and bulky, but the Borgs clothing is already thick and bulky, and they aren't known for their mobility anyway. And I don't see how putting the emitter on the inside changes it being a focal point for the emitter. It's still a focal point, but with the breastplate and the padding, the force of the blow gets de-focused and distributed.

Also, as long as we are making stuff up, I wouldn't make it skin tight, I'd make it a scutum shaped wall in front and back of the Borg. With a good rounded surface, bullet hits have a greater chance of hitting the field at an angle, making the incident transfer less momentum to the emitter and thuse to the drone. This may not be a severe decrease, but any decrease could spoofe death for another day when it comes to deflection.

[Robert Walper]

The emitter being on the outside is actually a bad idea, since it provides a focal point for imparted momentum, vastly smaller than the surface area of existing shield.

I don't like the idea of physically putting it inside the drones body.

In regards to what I'm suggesting, the emitter being inside the body is a good thing.

The idea is to keep that imparted moment away from the wearers tender flesh, and putting the device inside the body means that it has nowhere to go except the body.

It's apparently difficult for me to describe what I'm trying to put forth here. If the shield is already touching the outer body, the shield's surface area is going to be pushing against the body's surface area, transferring momentum to the drone's body, not the emitter. The shield doesn't have to touch the body all the time. The shield only needs to be close enough to the body that the distance between the body and shield is the safe distance the emitter can move inside of the body. Once the shield is pushing against the surface area of the body, the emitter is no longer absorbing momentum, the body is.

Putting the shield emitter physically on top of a breastplate with approprate bracing to the plate means that you can distribute force evenly over the surface of the plate.

As I said, the emitter is going to be the focal point of imparted momentum. If the emitter has 9 square inches of surface area, any and all momentum will be imparted to that 9 square inches, rather than the much larger surface area of the body underneath the shield.

A good foam or rubber padding that doesn't transfer motion well underneath that could turn a deadly event into a survivable one.

If Borg armor is indeed more like a leather or rubber covering, then this KE shield design I'm proposing becomes even more feasible with how the drones are already designed.

It would be thick and bulky, but the Borgs clothing is already thick and bulky, and they aren't known for their mobility anyway. And I don't see how putting the emitter on the inside changes it being a focal point for the emitter.

Because the shield's surface area transfers momentum rather than the emitter's surface area which is vastly smaller.

It's still a focal point, but with the breastplate and the padding, the force of the blow gets de-focused and distributed.

With the shield's surface area pushing against the outer body's surface area, you get the exact same effect without the much smaller focal point for imparted momentum.

Also, as long as we are making stuff up, I wouldn't make it skin tight,

If the shield is not virtually skin tight, my proposed system fails because of the emitter now absorbing imparting mometum instead of the outer body. The design would have to have a safety margin for the emitter to move. If the emitter can safely move 1 inch relative direction, then the personal shield could be inch away from the surface of the body.

I'd make it a scutum shaped wall in front and back of the Borg. With a good rounded surface, bullet hits have a greater chance of hitting the field at an angle, making the incident transfer less momentum to the emitter and thuse to the drone.

A good idea. In conjunction with your emitter being on the outside, this would work. But the emitter is still the focal point for imparted momentum. But with the shield surface area pushing against the outer body, force is distributed very well without a focal point. This requires the emitter inside the body though, or at least behind the outer surface absorbing said impact. Rounded surfaces are still existent too, but only where the body is rounded as well.

This may not be a severe decrease, but any decrease could spoofe death for another day when it comes to deflection.

I need to draw a diagram. A picture is worth a thousand words, and would better get my idea across. I think I'll make one anyhow, despite being unable to post it as yet.

[Crazedwraith]

I get what ur saying Walper your proposing a skintight shield non?

[Robert Walper]

I get what ur saying Walper your proposing a skintight shield non?

That about sums it up.

Well, it could be skin tight. But really, it wouldn't have to be skin tight, so long as the emitter can move within the body the same distance seperating the shield and body. Preferably more as a safety margin.

[Gil Hamilton]

First of all, Robert, do me a huge favor? Quote entire paragraphes, rather than picking out individual sentences. If you want to point out a particular phrase, bold it. It makes it much easier for us to correspond if you aren't setting up a seperate quote for every damn sentence in my post, especially since these posts tend to get geometrically longer as the discussion continues.

Now, let me explain what I am talking about. I even have little cartoons.


This is what I'm talking about. Painful Object (PO) it thrown or shot. It carries a certain momentum, p. Ideally, this momentum is completely transfered to the target, though realistically, of course its not.

The emitter is putting out force to act on the PO. Now the forcefield that the object is smacking against isn't an actual physical object, but rather where the emitter begins to act on the PO in a meaningful way. This doesn't guarantee that it will stop the PO -- the PO could carry more momentum than the force of the emitter is able put out to act to stop it from hitting in time -- but for the sake of argument, lets say the emitter manages to stop it like a brick wall. In order to conserve momentum, the emitter must put forward equal force to stop the PO, but it travels in an equal and opposite direction with the same amount of momentum. Sort of like one billiard ball hitting another. If the billiard hits squarely, the ball that struck it stops, but the billiard that stopped it carries it's momentum away.

If the emitter is physically inside the body, it would look like this.

The momentum is transfered from the PO to the emitter inside the body. Now the emitter jerks in an opposite direction than the force it applied to stop the PO. Since the body itself is not moving with it, it's going to slap right into whatever organ is directly in back of it. This is not a good thing, since it will cause internal injury, especially with the momentum of a bullet being thrown around.

But if the emitter is on the outside of the body, braced to a breastplate, it looks like this.

The PO is stopped by the emitter as usual, and it's momentum is transfered. The emitter jerks back and transfers the energy through the bracing to the plate. The plate jerks back, but because the plate has a much greater surface area than the emitter itself, and is heavier, it's not jerking back at the same velocity and it's force is distributed all along surface of the plate. That means less pressure is acting on the body, and thus less damage is done. Put padding underneath the plate, and our Borg friend just might live to assimilate biologicals another day.

The problem, I think, is that you are treating the forcefield like it's an actual physical object, and that the PO is transfering it's momentum to the forcefield, not to the emitter. I hope this things up for you.

[SirNitram]

Wow, SDnet is smarter than the entire Borg COllective. I am amused. It's not exactly suggested you wear this against a modern automatic weapon, though.

[CDiehl]

Why not just build a flak jacket into their clothing. It's easier and cheaper to make and use than a body-hugging shield generator. It has no power supply to be targeted and blown up. There is no "frequency" or "resonance" or other Treknobabble that makes a bullet or knife ignore a flak jacket. The goal is not becoming invincible, just surviving long enough to get healed and repaired.

[Lancer]

Why not just build a flak jacket into their clothing. It's easier and cheaper to make and use than a body-hugging shield generator. It has no power supply to be targeted and blown up. There is no "frequency" or "resonance" or other Treknobabble that makes a bullet or knife ignore a flak jacket. The goal is not becoming invincible, just surviving long enough to get healed and repaired.

Because a phaser or disruptor would disintegrate the jacket and the drone, whereas shields would nullify the disintegration effect.