Nanoprobes across lightyears?!

Mutant Headcrab · Post by **Mutant Headcrab** » 2004-01-07 10:27pm

Hey guys. Im in a debate with a Trekkie on another board. The topic was Zerg vs. Borg. I've been mainly pro-Zerg, seeing as how the biggest problems the Borg have is their general incompetncy. Well, this guy brings up something from the Voyager episode "Scorpion."

He's saying that in it the Borg have a mine that could spread nanites "lightyears." I know Voyager had borrowed something from the Borg, but I don't remember if that was it. I recall it being mentioned here before. So, is it true that this mine could spread crap light-years? Or has this been refuted?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-08 02:10am

They never built the weapon but the Borg were confident it would work. The claim was that a torpedo could be modified to explode and spread nanites over 5 lightyears. Later calculations refute this bullshit.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-01-08 02:19am

evilcat4000 wrote:They never built the weapon but the Borg were confident it would work.

That alone suggest to me the device utilizes technology and methods not immediately apparent to acheive said goal.

The claim was that a torpedo

Nitpick: Multi-kinetic neutronic mine. And it wasn't any typical torpedo. Visuals indicated the weapon would be, at the very least, the size of the Borg vessel seen in STTNG "Descent".

could be modified to explode and spread nanites over 5 lightyears. Later calculations refute this bullshit.

Calaculations based upon the assumption that said device works solely upon conventional explosive power with the limited number of nanoprobes to arm said mine(50 trillion if I'm not mistaken).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-08 02:23am

Robert, don't be an idiot. Even if you could magically disperse 50 trillion nanoprobes over a sphere of 5 light-years radius, it would still be useless. At that range, a nanoprobe would have a less than 1 in 4 million chance of hitting an Earth-sized target with a single nanoprobe, never mind hitting little spaceships.

They were obviously talking out of their asses, and demonstrating their own incompetence.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-01-08 02:29am

What's the supposed target of such a weapon?

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-01-08 02:31am

Darth Wong wrote:Robert, don't be an idiot.

I may be beyond help.

Even if you could magically disperse 50 trillion nanoprobes over a sphere of 5 light-years radius, it would still be useless.

If we assert said device utilizes only that number, and doesn't replicate more before detonation, you are of course correct.

At that range, a nanoprobe would have a less than 1 in 4 million chance of hitting an Earth-sized target with a single nanoprobe, never mind hitting little spaceships.

Not disputed.

They were obviously talking out of their asses, and demonstrating their own incompetence.

I'm inclined to disagree. I'll disagree more when I get back from work.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-08 02:44am

Robert, anyone who would try to rationalize that scene to make them out to be anything but idiots is fighting a Quixotic battle. Need I remind you that despite your wild speculations about all sorts of extra mechanisms, orders of magnitude more nanoprobes, and spontaneous nanoprobe replication while being hurled outward at superluminal speed, 7 of 9 herself described the situation as a simple matter of "dispersive force"? They are idiots; accept it.

The most likely explanation is much simpler; she got her units wrong. She meant to say "light-seconds". The idea was to make an area-effect weapon that could take out a whole S-8472 fleet, which would make sense. Even if a weapon did work over a 5 light-year radius, what good would it do? It would still only affect a single star system, and most likely only a single S-8472 fleet. You would still need to deploy thousands of these things in order to cleanse Borg territory of S-8472's presence. And it would no longer make any sense.

Seriously, just recognize that 7 of 9 fucked up her units, and it makes sense. Anything else does not, and your blatant attempt to shit all over Occam's Razor is not worth the electrons you used to post it.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-01-08 12:00pm

Darth Wong wrote:Robert, anyone who would try to rationalize that scene to make them out to be anything but idiots is fighting a Quixotic battle. Need I remind you that despite your wild speculations about all sorts of extra mechanisms, orders of magnitude more nanoprobes, and spontaneous nanoprobe replication while being hurled outward at superluminal speed, 7 of 9 herself described the situation as a simple matter of "dispersive force"? They are idiots; accept it.

Seven did said "range and dispersive force".

Pardon my ignorance, wouldn't a larger scale explosion accomplish just that? Disperse said nanoprobes much faster(thus greater effective range) and with greater force?

A rough estimate suggests the 5 million isoton yield(as opposed to Voyager's maximum yield of 200) would be presumeably 25 thousand times more powerful than Voyager's highest yield torpedo.

As I understand it, this makes Seven's statment about Voyager's inventory being inadaquate(in comparison) valid, does it not?

The most likely explanation is much simpler; she got her units wrong.

What wrong with the idea of nanoprobes being dispersed across five lightyears? Presumeably they haven't hit anything already to reach this range from the center of said explosion. At said range, the number of nanoprobes per volume ratio would be completely useless, but they did make it that far.

My interpretation was this was the range at which the shock wave, presumeably subspace in nature, died out.

She meant to say "light-seconds".

I assume she did mean light years, but didn't bother to mention that at that point said nanoprobes are useless.

The idea was to make an area-effect weapon that could take out a whole S-8472 fleet, which would make sense.

This is the impression I got from said weapon as well. I wasn't trying to suggest targets at that range would be threatened in any meaningful way. My only dispute is the assertion nanoprobes wouldn't be flung out in a radius of that magnitude.

Even if a weapon did work over a 5 light-year radius, what good would it do?It would still only affect a single star system, and most likely only a single S-8472 fleet.

Unless I'm mistaken, I wasn't implying any starship, or planet as you suggest, would be threatened at that range. Merely that the nanoprobes would actually be thrown out that far. I don't question the validity of your calculation showing the volume per nanoprobe makes hitting any target at that distance wishful thinking.

You would still need to deploy thousands of these things in order to cleanse Borg territory of S-8472's presence. And it would no longer make any sense.

I don't believe I was suggesting the Borg would make thousands of them, or even try.

Seriously, just recognize that 7 of 9 fucked up her units, and it makes sense. Anything else does not, and your blatant attempt to shit all over Occam's Razor is not worth the electrons you used to post it.

My only dispute is with the claim that said nanoprobes could not possibly be thrown out that far. Effectiveness at said range we agree on.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2004-01-08 12:18pm

Robert Walper wrote:Pardon my ignorance, wouldn't a larger scale explosion accomplish just that? Disperse said nanoprobes much faster(thus greater effective range) and with greater force?

how shall the nanoprobes survive an EXPLOSION of this magnitude ?

What wrong with the idea of nanoprobes being dispersed across five lightyears? Presumeably they haven't hit anything already to reach this range from the center of said explosion. At said range, the number of nanoprobes per volume ratio would be completely useless, but they did make it that far.

what's the use of a weapon that needs FIVE years to hit the maximum range ?

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-01-08 02:40pm

HRogge wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:Pardon my ignorance, wouldn't a larger scale explosion accomplish just that? Disperse said nanoprobes much faster(thus greater effective range) and with greater force?
how shall the nanoprobes survive an EXPLOSION of this magnitude ?

They easily survived Voyager's torpedo explosions, including a particularily large torpedo yield used for proximity detonation. Whatever the method, nanoprobes apparently can be shielded from said explosions while still being deployed. Technically, they shouldn't have survived Voyager's torpedo explosions either.

What wrong with the idea of nanoprobes being dispersed across five lightyears? Presumeably they haven't hit anything already to reach this range from the center of said explosion. At said range, the number of nanoprobes per volume ratio would be completely useless, but they did make it that far.
what's the use of a weapon that needs FIVE years to hit the maximum range ?

What kind of jibberish is this? There is a difference between simple maximum range and maximum effective range you know. A pistol can shoot a bullet a couple of miles technically(one could state a handgun could propel a bullet to the range of a mile or two). But it's maximum effective range is vastly lower, like a dozen meters or so.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2004-01-08 03:33pm

Robert Walper wrote:They easily survived Voyager's torpedo explosions, including a particularily large torpedo yield used for proximity detonation. Whatever the method, nanoprobes apparently can be shielded from said explosions while still being deployed. Technically, they shouldn't have survived Voyager's torpedo explosions either

When Voy. torpedos ( with borg nanites ) exploded, they displayed no typical explosion...

What kind of jibberish is this? There is a difference between simple maximum range and maximum effective range you know. A pistol can shoot a bullet a couple of miles technically(one could state a handgun could propel a bullet to the range of a mile or two). But it's maximum effective range is vastly lower, like a dozen meters or so.

saying a simple "mine" could deploy the nanites 5 lightyears wide is just silly. If they need decades/centuries to reach the 5 lightyear mark, they would reach 10/100 lightyears too. The number just make no sense

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-01-08 03:42pm

HRogge wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:They easily survived Voyager's torpedo explosions, including a particularily large torpedo yield used for proximity detonation. Whatever the method, nanoprobes apparently can be shielded from said explosions while still being deployed. Technically, they shouldn't have survived Voyager's torpedo explosions either
When Voy. torpedos ( with borg nanites ) exploded, they displayed no typical explosion...

Then I guess the Borg MKNM won't display like a typical explosion either.

What kind of jibberish is this? There is a difference between simple maximum range and maximum effective range you know. A pistol can shoot a bullet a couple of miles technically(one could state a handgun could propel a bullet to the range of a mile or two). But it's maximum effective range is vastly lower, like a dozen meters or so.
saying a simple "mine" could deploy the nanites 5 lightyears wide is just silly. If they need decades/centuries to reach the 5 lightyear mark, they would reach 10/100 lightyears too. The number just make no sense

The interpretation I put forth is that the nanoprobes are dispersed via a subspace shockwave which is limited to a radius of 5 lightyears.

Mutant Headcrab · Post by **Mutant Headcrab** » 2004-01-08 06:08pm

A few things here have helped, but I noticed something. This mine was never built? Also, was there any indication in the episode that the Borg had used that mine before? If that could be clarified, that would help immensly.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2004-01-08 06:28pm

From the other board. Didn't want to reply to this there.

Mutant_Headcrab wrote:The problem is, the only truly calculable instance of Borg weaponry is from First Contact when the Borg strike Cochrane's camp.

What of the damage sustain by the Federation Starships during the fight?
Surely that can be calculated.

Needless to say, that that doesn't say much for the weapons. The Borg cubes have no armor, save for thir tactical cubes. The major Borg strategy in combat is to hover ominously and shoot the occaisional cutting laser or green torpedoes.

Except if you have watched First Contact closely, there has been weapons fire from all sides of the cube disabling federation ship after federation ship so no it is not occasional.

It is also known for Borg to ignore targets until attacked. Even then there are instances of the Borg continuing ignorance shortly after being attacked. The Borg's problem isn't their tech, just their massive incompetence.

Except those events were mostly of boarding parties within the ship, not of ship-to-ship combat.

They have the numbers to handle the Zerg. They may even have the tech. They just lack the intelligence.

If any boarding action was to be allowed by the Borg, the Zerg will destroy the drones easily but then they can be trapped as force fields can be enacted to detain them.

Cyaround,
Jason

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-01-09 02:25am

Mutant Headcrab wrote:A few things here have helped, but I noticed something. This mine was never built?

In said episode, STVOY "Scorpion Part 2", the mine was never built. Presumeably the Borg had deployed a similar device in the past to be able to gauge it's effects to a relatively accurate degree(ie: effect explosion would have, distance components of said device would be scattered, in this instance, nanoprobes).

Also, was there any indication in the episode that the Borg had used that mine before?

Only if one asserts that they needed to have as least tested such a weapon before to be familar with what it would do. Doesn't imply it must have been tested, or used against an enemy for that matter.

If that could be clarified, that would help immensly.

*points at sig*

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-09 05:00am

The problem is, the only truly calculable instance of Borg weaponry is from First Contact when the Borg strike Cochrane's camp.

The sphere in First Contact was an escape craft that was so weak that three torpedoes destroyed it. It was not meant to be a combat vessel. Also the weapons fire the sphere were not torpedoes they were some kind of weak plasma weapons judging by their looks.

Borg weaponry is well into the multi-megaton range since they can effortlessly destroy starships with that kind of shield stregnth.

Mutant Headcrab · Post by **Mutant Headcrab** » 2004-01-09 05:25pm

Soontir C'boath wrote:What of the damage sustain by the Federation Starships during the fight?
Surely that can be calculated.

It would be nice, but Federation starships tend to explode mainly because of their unstable warp cores. We don't know how many of thos ships exploded from straight out damage or core faulures.

Except if you have watched First Contact closely, there has been weapons fire from all sides of the cube disabling federation ship after federation ship so no it is not occasional.

Alright, Ill concede that. I was getting somewhat frustrated on that board.

Except those events were mostly of boarding parties within the ship, not of ship-to-ship combat.

However, we can't forget those many times they let shuttles come right up next, if not into, a Cube. The thing is, though, there's no way to know how a Cube would react to a large, space faring organism. I honestly may just drop that point.

If any boarding action was to be allowed by the Borg, the Zerg will destroy the drones easily but then they can be trapped as force fields can be enacted to detain them.

The problem is once trapped, is there anything the Borg could do to the Zerg? I've been thinking about that and have been thinking about this one idea. Would the average Zerg be strong enough to "dig" through the hull? I know in some cutscenes you see Zerglings piercing the Marines power armor. Could the average Zerg circumvent forcefields by going through the walls and decks?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-10 02:26am

The problem is once trapped, is there anything the Borg could do to the Zerg? I've been thinking about that and have been thinking about this one idea. Would the average Zerg be strong enough to "dig" through the hull? I know in some cutscenes you see Zerglings piercing the Marines power armor. Could the average Zerg circumvent forcefields by going through the walls and decks?

The walls may be reinforced by structural integrity fields.