Undiscovered Country

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-31 08:08pm

Tsyroc wrote:I watched this movie again today and I think I noticed something.

At the end, in the aftermath of the attempt on the President's life there is still no direct evidence that the Klingons were involved in the plot. All the Chancelor has to go on is what they've so far seen and that is two Starfleet personel kill her father and a Starfleet Colonel dressed as a Klingon trying to kill the President. I'm sure they could have convinced her given time to provide evidence but at that moment she had no reason to believe that members of Starfleet weren't behind it all, with possible aid from the Romulan Ambassador.

I also wonder if the original plan had actually been to get Kirk to start a shooting war with the Klingons after the Chancelor had been murdered. That seemed much more likely given Kirk's spoken opinion about Klingons before he left on the mission.

No evidence? How about the computer logs on the Enterprise and the Excelcior of the battle with the prototype Bird-of-Prey? How about the physical wreckage itself? What about the stated confession of Lt. Valaris? How about the attack on the Chancelor's ship that couldn't be explained by anything but the rogue Bird-of-Prey?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-12-31 08:33pm

The Kernel wrote:
Tsyroc wrote:I watched this movie again today and I think I noticed something.

At the end, in the aftermath of the attempt on the President's life there is still no direct evidence that the Klingons were involved in the plot. All the Chancelor has to go on is what they've so far seen and that is two Starfleet personel kill her father and a Starfleet Colonel dressed as a Klingon trying to kill the President. I'm sure they could have convinced her given time to provide evidence but at that moment she had no reason to believe that members of Starfleet weren't behind it all, with possible aid from the Romulan Ambassador.

I also wonder if the original plan had actually been to get Kirk to start a shooting war with the Klingons after the Chancelor had been murdered. That seemed much more likely given Kirk's spoken opinion about Klingons before he left on the mission.
No evidence? How about the computer logs on the Enterprise and the Excelcior of the battle with the prototype Bird-of-Prey? How about the physical wreckage itself? What about the stated confession of Lt. Valaris? How about the attack on the Chancelor's ship that couldn't be explained by anything but the rogue Bird-of-Prey?

Well, why we the audience knows this, in the ST universe all evidence that the Klingons were part of the plot are circumstancial. Really, Chang's BoP can be explained as the transport or escort of the Chancilor or perhaps a stolen ship -Damn that SF intellegence- whereabouts unknown until it's wrekage was found around Kitomer.

Lt. Valaris's ommision is heresay and would probably be denied even if the new Chancilor agreed with SF about the plot. Dimplomacy is a fucked up profession and all.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-31 09:32pm

Knife wrote: Lt. Valaris's ommision is heresay and would probably be denied even if the new Chancilor agreed with SF about the plot. Dimplomacy is a fucked up profession and all.

Excuse me but testimony of a co-conspiritor is not heresay. Also, what about the fucking assasination attempt by Colonel West?

Sidious · Post by **Sidious** » 2003-12-31 09:42pm

Patrick Deagan wrote:Here's something which never occured to the writers but should have: if you can't use any sort of computer aid because it would be detected, then why not have a Klingon language expert on the link speaking in fluent Klingoni? After all, a Cold War has existed between the two powers for decades, it makes sense that Federation starships would have at least a few personnel who would know the language to interpret Klingon communiques and code-intercepts, wouldn't it? And who's the most logical person to be the Enterprise's resident Klingon language expert? Why, the ship's communications oficer, of course —Cdr. Uhura.

Funny you should mention that heh. From the IMDB trivia section on ST6:

IMBD wrote:Nichelle Nichols objected to the scene in which the crew desperately searches through old printed Klingonese translation dictionaries in order to speak the language without the standard universal translator being used. It seemed more logical to her that Uhura, being the ship's chief communications officer, would know the language of the Federation's main enemy, or at least have the appropriate information in the computer. However, director Nicholas Meyer bluntly overruled her.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-01-01 06:37am

The Kernel wrote:[
No evidence? How about the computer logs on the Enterprise and the Excelcior of the battle with the prototype Bird-of-Prey? How about the physical wreckage itself? What about the stated confession of Lt. Valaris? How about the attack on the Chancelor's ship that couldn't be explained by anything but the rogue Bird-of-Prey?

I meant at the time that they were getting all chummy with the Chancellor there had not been any evidence of Klingon involvement brought to the attention of the Klingons. All that they had seen, including the person who confessed, were Starfleet personel. There might be real evidence later but there wasn't any presented in what we saw of the Khitomer conference.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-01-01 09:12am

Stravo wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:TWOK was a better movie than TUC but TUC was a very proper sendoff to the TOS. They couldn't have asked for a better movie to say goodbye with, in particular the main villains being the oldest original villains (Klingons) and the TOS secures the future of the TNG. It was great in that sense.
And then they brought back Kirk for that fucking useless abortion of a movie, Star Trek: Generations, where he died a ridiculously pathetic death at the hands at the hands of Malcolm McDowell on some hard-scrabble planet in the middle of nowhere.

I'm sorry, but I've never heard of this Generations movie you speak of.

Quite right this "generations" does not exist, neither does "Voyager" or "Enterprise" and definatly "Nememsis" does not exist.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-01-01 09:13am

And there has been no Startrek movie since "The Undiscovered Country"

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-01-01 09:50pm

The Kernel wrote:
Knife wrote: Lt. Valaris's ommision is heresay and would probably be denied even if the new Chancilor agreed with SF about the plot. Dimplomacy is a fucked up profession and all.
Excuse me but testimony of a co-conspiritor is not heresay. Also, what about the fucking assasination attempt by Colonel West?

Sorry, but I have to disagree. With the touchy touchy Federation and all. Lt Valaris's confession at the hands of the Vulcan Mind Meld? Can you say 'cohersion'? What she said was VALUABLE intellegence, but I think you would be hard pressed to get that into some trial against her.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-01-01 10:06pm

Knife wrote: Sorry, but I have to disagree. With the touchy touchy Federation and all. Lt Valaris's confession at the hands of the Vulcan Mind Meld? Can you say 'cohersion'? What she said was VALUABLE intellegence, but I think you would be hard pressed to get that into some trial against her.

The TNG-era Federation used telepaths in "The Drumhead" during the course of an investigation. It is concievable that the TOS-era Federation had more in common with them then with our legal system.

Also, if there was a threat against the President of the United States and a military officer had a suspect with strong evidence that they knew about the conspiracy and they used forceful methods to extract information, do you think anyone is going to object?

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-01-02 12:56am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:And there has been no Startrek movie since "The Undiscovered Country"

I seem to recall four crappy movies following TUC, but can't quite put my fingers on them. Perhaps it was all just a bad dream.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2004-01-02 06:52am

IMHO the plot was to cripple/damage the Klingon battle cruiser. Immediately Chang would then attack the Enterprise and the force Kirk to defend himself. In the meantime Chang would have transported to his BoP to destroy the Enterprise. He would escape and start shit disturbing, maybe even becomming Chancelor himself. Kirk becomming mellow in his old age, and surrendering stopped that. So the next plan was to get Kirk sent to a prison planet. From there the Federation would launch a risky rescue mission which would be compromised, as suggested by Col. West who was up to his neck in the plot. West with the sniper rifle and Klingon mask from Walmart was a last ditch attempt to start a war.

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2004-01-02 10:43am

i don't get why the klingons were trying to start a war anyway...

they were a dieing race

would have made much more sense if chang was just a renegade who was trying to stop a federation plot

just doing it wrong.

arctic_series · Post by **arctic_series** » 2004-01-02 12:13pm

what i thought was the most memorable part of TUC was the end where the actors literally signed off.. with the whole floating sigs in space fading away like stardust.. woah..

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-01-02 12:52pm

The Kernel wrote:
Knife wrote: Sorry, but I have to disagree. With the touchy touchy Federation and all. Lt Valaris's confession at the hands of the Vulcan Mind Meld? Can you say 'cohersion'? What she said was VALUABLE intellegence, but I think you would be hard pressed to get that into some trial against her.
The TNG-era Federation used telepaths in "The Drumhead" during the course of an investigation. It is concievable that the TOS-era Federation had more in common with them then with our legal system.

Also, if there was a threat against the President of the United States and a military officer had a suspect with strong evidence that they knew about the conspiracy and they used forceful methods to extract information, do you think anyone is going to object?

I don't think it was bad as far as getting information. I just doubt her 'confession' was used to inprison her. I know, personal opinion and all.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-01-02 11:49pm

Zac Naloen wrote:i don't get why the klingons were trying to start a war anyway...

they were a dieing race

They explained that in the briefing scene, and again with the scene between the Fed. President and Azetbur: there are Klingons who would sooner die fighting the Federation than allow themselves to fall into an inferior position.

As for the plot holes and what not, I just had a thought on this: IIRC, Harve Bennett, who was involved heavily in TWOK's production, was not involved in TUC. It could be that his input is what we're missing in TUC.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-01-16 01:42pm

Knife wrote:
The Kernel wrote:
Tsyroc wrote:I watched this movie again today and I think I noticed something.

At the end, in the aftermath of the attempt on the President's life there is still no direct evidence that the Klingons were involved in the plot. All the Chancelor has to go on is what they've so far seen and that is two Starfleet personel kill her father and a Starfleet Colonel dressed as a Klingon trying to kill the President. I'm sure they could have convinced her given time to provide evidence but at that moment she had no reason to believe that members of Starfleet weren't behind it all, with possible aid from the Romulan Ambassador.

I also wonder if the original plan had actually been to get Kirk to start a shooting war with the Klingons after the Chancelor had been murdered. That seemed much more likely given Kirk's spoken opinion about Klingons before he left on the mission.
No evidence? How about the computer logs on the Enterprise and the Excelcior of the battle with the prototype Bird-of-Prey? How about the physical wreckage itself? What about the stated confession of Lt. Valaris? How about the attack on the Chancelor's ship that couldn't be explained by anything but the rogue Bird-of-Prey?
Well, why we the audience knows this, in the ST universe all evidence that the Klingons were part of the plot are circumstancial. Really, Chang's BoP can be explained as the transport or escort of the Chancilor or perhaps a stolen ship -Damn that SF intellegence- whereabouts unknown until it's wrekage was found around Kitomer.

Lt. Valaris's ommision is heresay and would probably be denied even if the new Chancilor agreed with SF about the plot. Dimplomacy is a fucked up profession and all.

True, but it was a experimental ship! As such that story does not boad well for the Klingons. It would be like digging into a cave in Afganitstan and finding a F-117 Stealth Fighter! Or the Aroura for that matter. This was a top secret military craft that not even the Klingon Chanceler knew about. Chang obviously had an agenda. The Wreckage of the very recient battle only helped to bolster Kirk's claims.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-01-16 02:10pm

and has anyone else noticed that the President of the Federation is none other than Red Foreman from That 70's Show! ? Upon watching it recently i half expected him to reply Kirk, get off me dumbass!

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2004-01-17 12:26pm

He's appeared in a couple of other ST episodes IIRC. I can't remember them all though. Voyager was one, it was a shitty time-travel episode IIRC.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-18 12:41am

It is interesting to note that it took over 80 years to reproduce Changs advanced cloaking device. Perhaps it was possible that all designes were destroyed after the only prototype was built and when it was lost the techonology went with it. That would explain we never saw such a remarkable ship again in Star Trek.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-01-18 02:23am

evilcat4000 wrote:It is interesting to note that it took over 80 years to reproduce Changs advanced cloaking device. Perhaps it was possible that all designes were destroyed after the only prototype was built and when it was lost the techonology went with it. That would explain we never saw such a remarkable ship again in Star Trek.

Or, sensor technology continues to improve, and Chang's cloak took shortcuts that in time made the cloak too vulnerable to sensors.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-18 02:25am

Uraniun235 wrote:
evilcat4000 wrote:It is interesting to note that it took over 80 years to reproduce Changs advanced cloaking device. Perhaps it was possible that all designes were destroyed after the only prototype was built and when it was lost the techonology went with it. That would explain we never saw such a remarkable ship again in Star Trek.
Or, sensor technology continues to improve, and Chang's cloak took shortcuts that in time made the cloak too vulnerable to sensors.

Good point. Changs ship was eventualy detected by ion emissions. Maybe the Federation built some kind of sesnor to detect this kind of thing.

DoctorObvious · Post by **DoctorObvious** » 2004-01-19 05:42am

The most irritating thing about TUC that I've discovered after watching it was that Valeris was originally supposed to be Saavik from TWOK and TSFS (IMDB is my GOD). The Spock/Valeris relationship makes a lot more sense if you just replace Valeris with Saavik.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-01-19 06:07am

DoctorObvious wrote:The most irritating thing about TUC that I've discovered after watching it was that Valeris was originally supposed to be Saavik from TWOK and TSFS (IMDB is my GOD). The Spock/Valeris relationship makes a lot more sense if you just replace Valeris with Saavik.

It would have been especially good with it being Saavik if they hadn't already wussed out on her being the mother of Spock's kid (she was supposed to have gotten pregnant helping Spock through Pon Far on the Genesis planet but while that was implied in STIII all reference to her being pregnant was cut out of STIV and then we never saw here again).

Not that Kim Catrall didn't look good as a Vulcan.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-19 06:12am

Damn straight on that point.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2004-01-19 12:55pm

Excellent points all round Patrick, but you must admit that a Sci-fi movie isn't a Sci-fi movie without a few hokey plot points

It can be what makes them endearing years after they've left the box office.

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Undiscovered Country

Saavik

Re: Saavik