Undiscovered Country

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-12-30 12:51pm

The Kernel wrote:
Montcalm wrote: Just wait until they find a stupid way to connect TOS,TNG and Enterprise.
I take it you didn't catch the utterly stupid Regeneration? That was the episode that put me off Star Trek for good.

I don`t have cable so i did`nt see any seasons of Enterprise.....maybe thats a good thing

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-12-30 12:51pm

Alyeska wrote:
Ted C wrote:The butchering was already in progress (Michael Dorn played Kirk's "public defender" if you'll recall), but the writers of TUC ignored what was happening to the Klingons in TNG.
Butchering? TNG came out before TUC. The butchering is not chronological in order.

I also guess you didn't bother to look at the fact that Colonel Worf was likely an ancestor of the Worf we know in TNG and DS9. Its not unknown in many different series to use the same actor to portray a distant relative.

FYI, read the credits, it does indeed say Colonel Worf. This means he's a relative and it blows your argument out of the water.

I think you missed my meaning completely. In the TNG episodes that were already coming out, the dumbing-down of the Klingons had begun, but the Klingons in TUC were still portrayed as diverse, smart, and politically savvy.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-30 12:55pm

Patrick's right about TUC's many plot holes; I think TUC is a movie whose success primarily hinges upon its direction and characters.

One other plot hole is the fact that every Federation starship captain apparently knows where the Khitomer conference is being held (as demonstrated when Sulu easily rattled off the location for Kirk), even though absolute secrecy is apparently its only protection against attack.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2003-12-30 08:22pm

Darth Wong wrote:Patrick's right about TUC's many plot holes; I think TUC is a movie whose success primarily hinges upon its direction and characters.

One other plot hole is the fact that every Federation starship captain apparently knows where the Khitomer conference is being held (as demonstrated when Sulu easily rattled off the location for Kirk), even though absolute secrecy is apparently its only protection against attack.

Could the Excelsior have been the Federation's Limo to there?

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » 2003-12-30 09:32pm

What I loved most was the trial on Qo'nos. The Klingons had wanted to get their grips on Kirk since TOS, and now they finally got him. When that platform
lifted up and Kirk was standing there, surrounded by thousands of Klingons shouting "Kirk! Kirk! Kirk!", I yelled out "Holy Shit!" and got several mean starees from fellow movie goers. But I didn't care.

Damn that was a good movie!!!!!

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-12-30 10:32pm

What really bothers me about TUC is that practically half the script is characters quoting other movies! Spock quoting Sherlock Holmes, the whole Rura Penthe speech lifted from "Bridge on the River Kwai", (not to mention the Klingons naming their prison planet from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea) endless Shakespere references, and that silly flipping through Klingon books to answer the listening post, when I could have done it with a $10 dollar hand-held translator from Radio Shack.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-12-31 12:34am

Lord Poe wrote:What really bothers me about TUC is that practically half the script is characters quoting other movies! Spock quoting Sherlock Holmes, the whole Rura Penthe speech lifted from "Bridge on the River Kwai", (not to mention the Klingons naming their prison planet from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea) endless Shakespere references, and that silly flipping through Klingon books to answer the listening post, when I could have done it with a $10 dollar hand-held translator from Radio Shack.

Why would they need one of those when they have the Universal Translator? Oh, a backup? LOL this is Star Trek.......

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-31 12:55am

Lord Poe wrote:What really bothers me about TUC is that practically half the script is characters quoting other movies! Spock quoting Sherlock Holmes, the whole Rura Penthe speech lifted from "Bridge on the River Kwai", (not to mention the Klingons naming their prison planet from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea) endless Shakespere references, and that silly flipping through Klingon books to answer the listening post, when I could have done it with a $10 dollar hand-held translator from Radio Shack.

You have a Radio Shack translator that does Klingon? Cool!

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-12-31 01:04am

TUC is my favorite of the Trek movies. It was not until a I saw it a few times on cable that it became my favorite.

I think it was great for its portrayal of the Klingon empire collasping, and a new unknown future.

I did get tired of the stupid Shakesphere stuff. It was too much, but other than that I enjoyed some of the little touches like a ships bells, a manual fire extinguisher, people cooking real food, etc.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-12-31 01:30am

The Kernel wrote:

You have a Radio Shack translator that does Klingon? Cool!

I bet you it wouldn't be that hard to mod one out!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-31 01:31am

In the TNG era, you don't even need one. Everything a Klingon ever says is "blood wine, war nog, fight for your honour, your Klingon heart burns with fire, vengeance, blah blah blah".

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-12-31 01:33am

Darth Wong wrote:In the TNG era, you don't even need one. Everything a Klingon ever says is "blood wine, war nog, fight for your honour, your Klingon heart burns with fire, vengeance, blah blah blah".

You must have Klingon blood! Today is a good day to die! Let's not get something started here.....

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-31 01:40am

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:In the TNG era, you don't even need one. Everything a Klingon ever says is "blood wine, war nog, fight for your honour, your Klingon heart burns with fire, vengeance, blah blah blah".
You must have Klingon blood! Today is a good day to die! Let's not get something started here.....

Revenge is a dish which is best served cold. Much blood has been spilled this day. This will be a battle worthy of song!

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-12-31 02:00am

*Bans DW* Damn spamming newbie.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-12-31 03:42am

Didn't they throw in the Peter Pan quote at the end of the movie?

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2003-12-31 03:44am

Tsyroc wrote:Didn't they throw in the Peter Pan quote at the end of the movie?

Yes. Yes they did "2nd star to the right and straight on till morning" or something such like that.

And to continue this oh-so-funny list of Klingon quotes.

-Ka'plah!
-Coward! You are not fit to lead!
-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGHHHHHHHHH! (klingon death scream

)
-It will be a glooorious battle
-KNIFE FIGHT!!!

...well they don't really say that last one so often...they may as well though

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-12-31 03:44am

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Why would they need one of those when they have the Universal Translator? Oh, a backup? LOL this is Star Trek.......

Supposedly in the movie they couldn't use the universal translater because it would be recognized by the Klingons (but Uhura's accent wouldn't?).

In Star Trek: TMP the universal translater had a scrolling text translation and didn't translate Klingon automatically IIRC. That would have been useful in this instance I think.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-12-31 04:08am

Tsyroc wrote:Didn't they throw in the Peter Pan quote at the end of the movie?

Second star to the right and on until morning.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-12-31 04:41am

Did anyone notice the two guys in the Fed space suits who shot the Klingons on the battlecruiser ? They looked real cool like Star wars stormtroopers. For a moment I actualy believed that the Federation has soldiers in battlesuits.

Their weapons rocked. It was amazing to see those bluish beams rip apart bodies. Unlike TNG there was actual blood and people lost body parts.

The TNG and VOY era space suits sucks. They look like white plastic bags.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-31 11:03am

Re: Border crossing station

I can't believe no one has figured this out yet. Isn't it obvious? The Enterprise couldn't use its universal translator because it would be recognized. The Enterprise was pretending to be a freighter and its very obvious they were not faknig the part about a freighter that had to handle the translations on their own. The fact that the border station kept repeating the statement and listened to BAD Klingon from Uhura imediately tells us he knew they didn't normaly speak Klingon but accepted their story as being a Freighter.

Its obvious the Klingons do trade with other governments and groups and not everyone who would want to trade with the Klingons would necessarily speak their language.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-31 11:07am

Alyeska wrote:Re: Border crossing station

I can't believe no one has figured this out yet. Isn't it obvious? The Enterprise couldn't use its universal translator because it would be recognized.

Actually, if you listen carefully to the dialogue Chekov makes this statement:

CHEKOV: The Universal Translator would be recognized. We must respond personally.

The only thing I thought was weird was that they were digging through actual books instead of just looking it up on the computer.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-12-31 11:19am

Well we saw paper books in TNG so books were hardly obsolete in TOS era Federation.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-31 11:28am

evilcat4000 wrote:Well we saw paper books in TNG so books were hardly obsolete in TOS era Federation.

Most of those (like the Complete Works of Shakespeare in Picard's Ready Room) were relics and not used for actual reading. Consider that in the TOS episode "Court Martial", Kirk was amazed that his eccentric attorney used books instead of a computer.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-12-31 05:05pm

The Kernel wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Re: Border crossing station

I can't believe no one has figured this out yet. Isn't it obvious? The Enterprise couldn't use its universal translator because it would be recognized.
Actually, if you listen carefully to the dialogue Chekov makes this statement:

CHEKOV: The Universal Translator would be recognized. We must respond personally.

The only thing I thought was weird was that they were digging through actual books instead of just looking it up on the computer.

Here's something which never occured to the writers but should have: if you can't use any sort of computer aid because it would be detected, then why not have a Klingon language expert on the link speaking in fluent Klingoni? After all, a Cold War has existed between the two powers for decades, it makes sense that Federation starships would have at least a few personnel who would know the language to interpret Klingon communiques and code-intercepts, wouldn't it? And who's the most logical person to be the Enterprise's resident Klingon language expert? Why, the ship's communications oficer, of course —Cdr. Uhura.

Considering that the previous film featured a scene where Capt. Klaa's First Lieutennant fooled Kirk by speaking fluent English, it would have been perfectly logical for Uhura to pull the same trick on the Klingons in film n.6. The scene could even have capped itself with a perfect punchline, as Uhura turns to her astonished crewmates on the bridge and smugly tells them that "there's a lot more to being a communications officer than simply opening hailing frequencies".

A perfectly good opportunity for one of the best ironical in-jokes in Trek history missed because somebody couldn't have applied a few minutes thought at the typewriter...

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-12-31 06:39pm

I watched this movie again today and I think I noticed something.

At the end, in the aftermath of the attempt on the President's life there is still no direct evidence that the Klingons were involved in the plot. All the Chancelor has to go on is what they've so far seen and that is two Starfleet personel kill her father and a Starfleet Colonel dressed as a Klingon trying to kill the President. I'm sure they could have convinced her given time to provide evidence but at that moment she had no reason to believe that members of Starfleet weren't behind it all, with possible aid from the Romulan Ambassador.

I also wonder if the original plan had actually been to get Kirk to start a shooting war with the Klingons after the Chancelor had been murdered. That seemed much more likely given Kirk's spoken opinion about Klingons before he left on the mission.