Star Trek vs Knowledge

[Kitsune]

This might be in the wrong forum, if so, I am sorry. Go ahaead and move it to the right forum.

I remember way back in TNG times, there was an episode where there is a race who is about to discover warp drives but they do not find it comfortable so they stop research with Picard supporting their decision and taking the pirmary research involved in warp drive with the Enterprise.

I don't remember what my opinion at the time although to be honest, I was pretty supporting of star trek at the time so I might have agreed with it. Now, thinking about that, it says to me that if you find a truth to be uncomfortable, don't deal with it, and if you need to, bury it. That burns me up and it shows what star trek is trying to teach people

Opinions? You might disagree that it was the lesson.

[Darth Wong]

This might be in the wrong forum, if so, I am sorry. Go ahaead and move it to the right forum.

I remember way back in TNG times, there was an episode where there is a race who is about to discover warp drives but they do not find it comfortable so they stop research with Picard supporting their decision and taking the pirmary research involved in warp drive with the Enterprise.

Yes, it was a society of xenophobes and the researcher was played by Bebe Neuwirth (sp?), the same actress who played Frasier Crane's wife Lilith on Cheers. She coerced Riker into sex in that episode. Also, Riker was the only human on the planet but they couldn't find him with their scanners or transport him out when he was injured.

I don't remember what my opinion at the time although to be honest, I was pretty supporting of star trek at the time so I might have agreed with it. Now, thinking about that, it says to me that if you find a truth to be uncomfortable, don't deal with it, and if you need to, bury it. That burns me up and it shows what star trek is trying to teach people

Opinions? You might disagree that it was the lesson.

I'm the last person to support Star Trek, but in this episode I thought it was pretty clear that the people on the planet were just being close-minded assholes, and that Picard was not really agreeing with their motives but rather, deciding to leave them along to wallow in their ignorance until they were ready.

[Stofsk]

I haven't seen the episode but based on what you said, it sounds like bullshit. It just doesn't make sense. You're busy developing a warp drive, get cold feet, then STOP? If this is indeed what happened in the show, then it's not a very good message at all. Whatever happened to success through perserverence?

Still, this doesn't sound as bad as the season 7 episode where warpdrive was revealed to be causing interstellar "smog" and a galactic "speed limit" was introduced to try to limit the pollution.

Kitsune, I bet 5 magic beans the episode you referred to has the Prime Directive in it to fuck everything up.

[Lancer]

I haven't seen the episode but based on what you said, it sounds like bullshit. It just doesn't make sense. You're busy developing a warp drive, get cold feet, then STOP? If this is indeed what happened in the show, then it's not a very good message at all. Whatever happened to success through perserverence?

Still, this doesn't sound as bad as the season 7 episode where warpdrive was revealed to be causing interstellar "smog" and a galactic "speed limit" was introduced to try to limit the pollution.

Actually, the distortions were slowly ripping the fabric of space to shreds or something like that.

[Darth Wong]

I haven't seen the episode but based on what you said, it sounds like bullshit. It just doesn't make sense. You're busy developing a warp drive, get cold feet, then STOP? If this is indeed what happened in the show, then it's not a very good message at all. Whatever happened to success through perserverence?

The idea of the episode is that scientists represent a small faction in society, and that most people in the society have a lot of very close-minded quasi-religious beliefs. So when the scientists pressed ahead and developed warp drive, the reactionaries fought them every step of the way until the arrival of the "evil aliens" built such public hostility against the scientists that they were basically shut down by the government, which was pandering to the reactionaries (actually sounds rather familiar).

In the end, the lead scientist on the project basically said "fuck this worthless place and these fundie shitheads, I'm leaving" and went away with the Enterprise-D.

[Kitsune]

I'm the last person to support Star Trek, but in this episode I thought it was pretty clear that the people on the planet were just being close-minded assholes, and that Picard was not really agreeing with their motives but rather, deciding to leave them along to wallow in their ignorance until they were ready.

We have some pretty closed minded people on earth and I am pretty sure I have my moments as well. It is the finding of some new area of science that can greatly advancaing the society and it is stopped by a few people. It is similar to people who want creation taught in school and eveloution pulled out. In some areas, you might even be able to get a majority to support it but it does not make it right.

I know I would be pissed if we discovered FTL travel and some political leader decided it was too advanced for us.

[Lancer]

I'm the last person to support Star Trek, but in this episode I thought it was pretty clear that the people on the planet were just being close-minded assholes, and that Picard was not really agreeing with their motives but rather, deciding to leave them along to wallow in their ignorance until they were ready.

We have some pretty closed minded people on earth and I am pretty sure I have my moments as well. It is the finding of some new area of science that can greatly advancaing the society and it is stopped by a few people. It is similar to people who want creation taught in school and eveloution pulled out. In some areas, you might even be able to get a majority to support it but it does not make it right.

I know I would be pissed if we discovered FTL travel and some political leader decided it was too advanced for us.

I'd just take the religious extremists (especially crazy creationists), load them up on the first FTL ship, and shoot them straight into the sun. That would both make an interesting test flight and eliminate the problem of religiously motivated psychos.

[Darth Wong]

We have some pretty closed minded people on earth and I am pretty sure I have my moments as well. It is the finding of some new area of science that can greatly advancaing the society and it is stopped by a few people.

See "cloning". The problem is that it's not a few people; it's a lot of people.

It is similar to people who want creation taught in school and eveloution pulled out. In some areas, you might even be able to get a majority to support it but it does not make it right.

Oh, of course it's not right. But it is the world we live in.

I know I would be pissed if we discovered FTL travel and some political leader decided it was too advanced for us.

It's really no different than the cloning debate today.

[Stofsk]

Actually, the distortions were slowly ripping the fabric of space to shreds or something like that.

Yeah I know, I was just being figurative. The actual pollution idea wasn't the problem so much as the lack of internal consistency: for centuries before that episode warpdrive was doing squat and not causing damage, and after the episode in the rest of TNG, DS9 and Voyager, it was quietly forgotten. This is weird due to the nature of the episode, where at the end the reset button doesn't get pushed - the problem, or so we are led to believe, will be an ongoing one. But it's never referred to again. (well, not really - I think the Enterprise get's special dispensation to exceed the speed limit in one other episode, possibly in "All Good Things" but that's all I can remember)

[Darth Wong]

Actually, the distortions were slowly ripping the fabric of space to shreds or something like that.

Yeah I know, I was just being figurative. The actual pollution idea wasn't the problem so much as the lack of internal consistency: for centuries before that episode warpdrive was doing squat and not causing damage, and after the episode in the rest of TNG, DS9 and Voyager, it was quietly forgotten. This is weird due to the nature of the episode, where at the end the reset button doesn't get pushed - the problem, or so we are led to believe, will be an ongoing one. But it's never referred to again. (well, not really - I think the Enterprise get's special dispensation to exceed the speed limit in one other episode, possibly in "All Good Things" but that's all I can remember)

I seem to recall somebody saying that Voyager waved this restriction away with its rotating warp nacelles (apparently, putting the warp nacelles on hinges magically makes the problem go away )

[Kitsune]

Oh, of course it's not right. But it is the world we live in.

The question was, was Picard right in what he did. How does he not know that in 50 years, the residents of the plnaet do nto get warp drive and decide to go on a holy war.

It's really no different than the cloning debate today.

I agree and it frosts me...Just that many people who consider themsleves progressive use trek as one of their guides and they are being fed the belief that people should be shelterd from the truth

[Lancer]

Actually, the distortions were slowly ripping the fabric of space to shreds or something like that.

Yeah I know, I was just being figurative. The actual pollution idea wasn't the problem so much as the lack of internal consistency: for centuries before that episode warpdrive was doing squat and not causing damage, and after the episode in the rest of TNG, DS9 and Voyager, it was quietly forgotten. This is weird due to the nature of the episode, where at the end the reset button doesn't get pushed - the problem, or so we are led to believe, will be an ongoing one. But it's never referred to again. (well, not really - I think the Enterprise get's special dispensation to exceed the speed limit in one other episode, possibly in "All Good Things" but that's all I can remember)

I seem to recall somebody saying that Voyager waved this restriction away with its rotating warp nacelles (apparently, putting the warp nacelles on hinges magically makes the problem go away )

Apparently, the movable warp nacelle positions allowed the ship to change the geometry of it's warp field and eliminate that problem. Then the producers completely fucked up (again) and the nacelles go to the same position every time nomatter what warp factor they're going at.

[Darth Wong]

Oh, of course it's not right. But it is the world we live in.

The question was, was Picard right in what he did. How does he not know that in 50 years, the residents of the plnaet do nto get warp drive and decide to go on a holy war.

What were his options? He can't realistically force them to adopt warp technology or start thinking rationally. His only real option is to broadcast a global televised message that they are not alone in the universe, in order to blow away all of the irrational bullshit. But even that could very well be explained away as a hoax.

It's really no different than the cloning debate today.

I agree and it frosts me...Just that many people who consider themsleves progressive use trek as one of their guides and they are being fed the belief that people should be shelterd from the truth

What the episode should have done was villainize the reactionaries more. In the end, they tried too hard to make it seem as if the reactionaries had a valid point.

[Stofsk]

Oh, of course it's not right. But it is the world we live in.

The question was, was Picard right in what he did. How does he not know that in 50 years, the residents of the plnaet do nto get warp drive and decide to go on a holy war.

I don't think Picard did anything particularly bad, after all the aliens weren't members of the Federation so it's not like he could do anything anyway (ironically, their nonmembership doesn't protect them from what amounts to as a spy mission - I haven't seen the episode but I've got the encyclopedia. For some strange reason Riker's the spy sent on this mission.)

It's really no different than the cloning debate today.

In your opinion Mike, are things getting better or worse in regards to science and the way it gets taught?

[Lancer]

Oh, of course it's not right. But it is the world we live in.

The question was, was Picard right in what he did. How does he not know that in 50 years, the residents of the plnaet do nto get warp drive and decide to go on a holy war.

What were his options? He can't realistically force them to adopt warp technology or start thinking rationally. His only real option is to broadcast a global televised message that they are not alone in the universe, in order to blow away all of the irrational bullshit. But even that could very well be explained away as a hoax.

It's really no different than the cloning debate today.

I agree and it frosts me...Just that many people who consider themsleves progressive use trek as one of their guides and they are being fed the belief that people should be shelterd from the truth

What the episode should have done was villainize the reactionaries more. In the end, they tried too hard to make it seem as if the reactionaries had a valid point.

If they as a civilization were not yet ready to throw off religion, they really shouldn't be messing around with stuff like warp drive. I would hate to see tech that advanced going to people who still think that "god" is the reason why people get sick.

[Darth Wong]

I don't think Picard did anything particularly bad, after all the aliens weren't members of the Federation so it's not like he could do anything anyway (ironically, their nonmembership doesn't protect them from what amounts to as a spy mission - I haven't seen the episode but I've got the encyclopedia. For some strange reason Riker's the spy sent on this mission.)

Yeah, I love the way they routinely use high-ranking starship officers as agents on the ground.

It's really no different than the cloning debate today.

In your opinion Mike, are things getting better or worse in regards to science and the way it gets taught?

I don't think it's getting better or worse (not that it couldn't stand some improvement), but the propaganda techniques and funding of the religious wackos is vastly improved over what it was 30 years ago. In other words, our side is just carrying on while the other side is in the midst of one of the biggest public propaganda campaigns in history.

[Lancer]

I don't think Picard did anything particularly bad, after all the aliens weren't members of the Federation so it's not like he could do anything anyway (ironically, their nonmembership doesn't protect them from what amounts to as a spy mission - I haven't seen the episode but I've got the encyclopedia. For some strange reason Riker's the spy sent on this mission.)

Yeah, I love the way they routinely use high-ranking starship officers as agents on the ground.

It's really no different than the cloning debate today.

In your opinion Mike, are things getting better or worse in regards to science and the way it gets taught?

I don't think it's getting better or worse (not that it couldn't stand some improvement), but the propaganda techniques and funding of the religious wackos is vastly improved over what it was 30 years ago. In other words, our side is just carrying on while the other side is in the midst of one of the biggest public propaganda campaigns in history.

True science is taught in Maryland (smack-dab in the middle of the east coast, USA). It's pretty much safe to say that science is the only thing that is even considered on the coasts of the US (the "bible-belt" not included). So called "alternatives" are pretty much dismissed imediately, and it isn't until you get into higher level physics and chemistry that philosophy comes into play.

[Patrick Degan]

This might be in the wrong forum, if so, I am sorry. Go ahaead and move it to the right forum.

I remember way back in TNG times, there was an episode where there is a race who is about to discover warp drives but they do not find it comfortable so they stop research with Picard supporting their decision and taking the pirmary research involved in warp drive with the Enterprise.

Yes, it was a society of xenophobes and the researcher was played by Bebe Neuwirth (sp?), the same actress who played Frasier Crane's wife Lilith on Cheers. She coerced Riker into sex in that episode. Also, Riker was the only human on the planet but they couldn't find him with their scanners or transport him out when he was injured.

Not quite. Although Bebe Newarth did appear in the episode and did have sex with Riker, she was only a nurse at the hospital where Riker was being held. Mirasta Yale, the warp propulsion researcher, was portrayed by British actress Carolyn Seymour (Romulan Subcommander Taris in season 2's "Contagion", Romulan Commander Toreth in season 6's "Face Of The Enemy", Sen. Crosby in the Babylon 5 episode "Endgame", castmember of the 1970s BBC SF series The Survivors).

[Crazedwraith]

Are we talking about the TNG "first Contact" Episode here? Wasn't Picards main problem at the time was that as they hadn't really devolped warp drive yet according to the prime directive he couldn't do fuck all?