Balance of Terror plasma torpedo firepower

[Darth Wong]

Interestingly enough, "Balance of Terror" indicates that they figured a 1km deep outpost would be so well-protected against starship attack that it would be able to hold out for a while. Note that it takes roughly 40 megatons to blast a 1km deep crater out of a solid nickel-iron asteroid.

[The Kernel]

Interestingly enough, "Balance of Terror" indicates that they figured a 1km deep outpost would be so well-protected against starship attack that it would be able to hold out for a while. Note that it takes roughly 40 megatons to blast a 1km deep crater out of a solid nickel-iron asteroid.

Nitpick, but he did say a mile not a kilometer deep.

EDIT: Also the asteroid WAS shielded, which I would assume has some sort of impact.

[Stofsk]

Interestingly enough, "Balance of Terror" indicates that they figured a 1km deep outpost would be so well-protected against starship attack that it would be able to hold out for a while. Note that it takes roughly 40 megatons to blast a 1km deep crater out of a solid nickel-iron asteroid.

They also had shields as well, surely that would offer additional protection? If the shields fell then they were screwed anyway. Maybe they used the asteroids not because of the protection they offered but because they were local and easily accessible? It may have been easier (or cheaper) to construct bases in asteroids that were near the neutral zone, rather than build a starbase.

[The Kernel]

They also had shields as well, surely that would offer additional protection? If the shields fell then they were screwed anyway. Maybe they used the asteroids not because of the protection they offered but because they were local and easily accessible? It may have been easier (or cheaper) to construct bases in asteroids that were near the neutral zone, rather than build a starbase.

Or perhaps because they were trying to hide them. It wouldn't make much sense to have monitoring stations if the Romulans knew exactly where they were. It might also be why the Romulans passed over several of the outposts; they might not have know their locations.

[Darth Wong]

Nitpick, but he did say a mile not a kilometer deep.

Sorry, the figure should be roughly 150MT then.

EDIT: Also the asteroid WAS shielded, which I would assume has some sort of impact.

It can't make such a large difference that the energy necessary to hit a mile-deep base becomes trivial, otherwise there would be no point going to all that effort to bury the base like that.

[The Kernel]

It can't make such a large difference that the energy necessary to hit a mile-deep base becomes trivial, otherwise there would be no point going to all that effort to bury the base like that.

I agree it probably doesn't make a large difference, but I doubt very much that the bases were buried for protection. These were listening posts, not battlestations, and their purpose was to monitor the neutral zone, not guard against invasion. It is likely that the buried them because they didn't want them to be found.

[Darth Wong]

I agree it probably doesn't make a large difference, but I doubt very much that the bases were buried for protection. These were listening posts, not battlestations, and their purpose was to monitor the neutral zone, not guard against invasion. It is likely that the buried them because they didn't want them to be found.

Then why did the base commander cite the burial depth when he was expressing his shock and alarm at the warbird's firepower? And how would a deeper burial depth make it harder to detect, when it would have meant that the excavation team would have to spend more time at the asteroid digging out that cavity in the first place? If they just want to hide, why not bury it 50 metres deep instead of 1600?

[The Kernel]

Then why did the base commander cite the burial depth when he was expressing his shock and alarm at the warbird's firepower?

Probably because the ship took a single shot and crashed through the deflectors and heavily damaged his base. From what you said, that would have required 150 MT+ which is pretty high for TOS-era weapons, especially from a ship as small as that warbird.

And how would a deeper burial depth make it harder to detect, when it would have meant that the excavation team would have to spend more time at the asteroid digging out that cavity in the first place? If they just want to hide, why not bury it 50 metres deep instead of 1600?

Now why on Earth would they have done the building at the Neutral Zone itself? Why not simply carve up the asteroid at a Starbase then tow it over? It wouldn't do much good to set up a hidden base on-site regardless of depth.

As for why they wanted to bury it that deep, I imagine it was to avoid sensor probes. We know that Trek sensors have a hard time with heavy metals, and they probably wanted to ensure against detection. Keep in mind that the Federation didn't have a lot of intel on Romulans capabilities, so they probably buried the bases deep just in case the Romulans has high powered sensors that could penetrate hundreds of meters of iron.

[Howedar]

Hiding would not be so easy when you've got an energy shield broadcasting your presence.

[The Kernel]

Hiding would not be so easy when you've got an energy shield broadcasting your presence.

Oh really? Did you forget Hansen's message to the Enterprise? He said that they had been warned and that their deflector shield was on maximum. Which suggests that they do not routinely keep an energy shield in operation.

[Darth Wong]

Probably because the ship took a single shot and crashed through the deflectors and heavily damaged his base. From what you said, that would have required 150 MT+ which is pretty high for TOS-era weapons, especially from a ship as small as that warbird.

Oh yes, but I suppose I'm just making the point that it does fix the power of one-hit one-kill weapons in the TOS era in the MT range, not the GT range.

Now why on Earth would they have done the building at the Neutral Zone itself? Why not simply carve up the asteroid at a Starbase then tow it over? It wouldn't do much good to set up a hidden base on-site regardless of depth.

When did the Enterprise develop the ability to tow a two mile wide object at warp speed?

As for why they wanted to bury it that deep, I imagine it was to avoid sensor probes. We know that Trek sensors have a hard time with heavy metals, and they probably wanted to ensure against detection.

Iron is not a heavy metal. And if they have deflector shields and transmitters, it's going to be pretty hard to hide their presence. Honestly, there's not a shred of evidence for this concealment theory, and the fact that the Romulans knew where the outpost was casts doubt on the idea that it was carefully hidden. There is nothing whatsoever in the definition of a listening post which requires that the enemy not know of its existence. All of the early warning stations built by NORAD were known to the USSR.

Keep in mind that the Federation didn't have a lot of intel on Romulans capabilities, so they probably buried the bases deep just in case the Romulans has high powered sensors that could penetrate hundreds of meters of iron.

Or perhaps you are simply engaged in completely unnecessary speculation which is unnecessary in order to explain the events of the episode. When your theory begins to require things like two mile wide nickel-iron asteroids being carried around at warp speed, it's starting to look rather contrived.

[Ender]

It's a secret listening post, means there should be some confidential information and top secret technology. Perhaps the thick iron was there to inhibit transporters (we know thick layers of rock stop them) so that should the base be overrun, the people would have time to destroy everything so the romulans couldn't get it.

Making the borders run a mile from the surface to your installation may only buy you 5 minutes, but that is more then enough to purge your files and phaser your equipment.

[The Kernel]

When did the Enterprise develop the ability to tow a two mile wide object at warp speed?

Do we know that towing at warp speed is a problem that has anything to do with mass? Especially with Fed mass lightening technology?

Iron is not a heavy metal. And if they have deflector shields and transmitters, it's going to be pretty hard to hide their presence. Honestly, there's not a shred of evidence for this concealment theory, and the fact that the Romulans knew where the outpost was casts doubt on the idea that it was carefully hidden. There is nothing whatsoever in the definition of a listening post which requires that the enemy not know of its existence. All of the early warning stations built by NORAD were known to the USSR.

True, but the USSR was not a highly xenophobic culture that we had little to no official contact with. Considering the limited data availibile on the Romulans, discretion might have seemed prudent.

Also the Romulans likely DID NOT know where all the listening posts were or else they probably would not have attacked them in the order they did. Granted we were looking at a 2D map of a 3D situation, but the Romulans hit outpost 2, 3 and 8 while ignoring the ones in between. We don't know that they actually knew of their existance or not. The fact that they were able to find 4 of them after decades of operation isn't THAT surprising.

Or perhaps you are simply engaged in completely unnecessary speculation which is unnecessary in order to explain the events of the episode. When your theory begins to require things like two mile wide nickel-iron asteroids being carried around at warp speed, it's starting to look rather contrived.

Not really, I'm just considering the possibilities on why they might choose to bury listening posts that deep in asteroids. Since they were obviously not built to fight, I surmise that concealment makes a certain amount of sense given their function.

As for towing two mile wide asteroids at warp speeds, the hundreds of Starbases seem to have found their way out into the frontier somehow (many that orbit lifeless planets), do you think that they were all set up on-site? Seems a little hard to believe that they assemble space stations in the field like that.

EDIT: Iron isn't a heavy metal? Isn't iron the heaviest element that can be created by fusion inside a star? What defines a heavy metal then?

[Connor MacLeod]

Nitpick, but he did say a mile not a kilometer deep.

Sorry, the figure should be roughly 150MT then.

EDIT: Also the asteroid WAS shielded, which I would assume has some sort of impact.

It can't make such a large difference that the energy necessary to hit a mile-deep base becomes trivial, otherwise there would be no point going to all that effort to bury the base like that.

If the Romulan plasma weapon dropped the shield in a single burst (and still managed to do some surface damage to the base), and the second shot destroyed the base, wouldn't that suggest the shield is perhaps not much more powerful than a couple hundred megatons?

[The Kernel]

If the Romulan plasma weapon dropped the shield in a single burst (and still managed to do some surface damage to the base), and the second shot destroyed the base, wouldn't that suggest the shield is perhaps not much more powerful than a couple hundred megatons?

Which makes perfect sense given TNG photon torp yields of 64 MT's (the commenly accepted figure IIRC).

[Ender]

When did the Enterprise develop the ability to tow a two mile wide object at warp speed?

Do we know that towing at warp speed is a problem that has anything to do with mass? Especially with Fed mass lightening technology?

Yes, there was some TNG episode where they were towing something and couldn't go to warp due to the stress put on the spaceframe if they did, and the stars radiation was slowly killing them while they tried to drag it out on impulse.

As for towing two mile wide asteroids at warp speeds, the hundreds of Starbases seem to have found their way out into the frontier somehow (many that orbit lifeless planets), do you think that they were all set up on-site? Seems a little hard to believe that they assemble space stations in the field like that.

Why? Its not like it would be that difficult.

[Darth Wong]

When did the Enterprise develop the ability to tow a two mile wide object at warp speed?

Do we know that towing at warp speed is a problem that has anything to do with mass? Especially with Fed mass lightening technology?

You mean the technology that is limited by geometry, thus making a two mile wide object rather difficult for a 400 metre long ship to drag through warp?

True, but the USSR was not a highly xenophobic culture that we had little to no official contact with. Considering the limited data availibile on the Romulans, discretion might have seemed prudent.

You must be joking. Relations with the USSR stood at the brink of worldwide nuclear war for decades, for fuck's sake.

Also the Romulans likely DID NOT know where all the listening posts were or else they probably would not have attacked them in the order they did. Granted we were looking at a 2D map of a 3D situation, but the Romulans hit outpost 2, 3 and 8 while ignoring the ones in between. We don't know that they actually knew of their existance or not. The fact that they were able to find 4 of them after decades of operation isn't THAT surprising.

Perhaps if you could show me the dialogue where anyone on the ship expressed anything resembling hope that the bases would be protected by their fiendishly clever concealment, you might have a point.

Not really, I'm just considering the possibilities on why they might choose to bury listening posts that deep in asteroids. Since they were obviously not built to fight, I surmise that concealment makes a certain amount of sense given their function.

I already provided an explanation which doesn't require the invention of new warp-drive abilities: they wanted to give it enough armour to make them survivable for long enough to bring reinforcements to the party.

As for towing two mile wide asteroids at warp speeds, the hundreds of Starbases seem to have found their way out into the frontier somehow (many that orbit lifeless planets), do you think that they were all set up on-site? Seems a little hard to believe that they assemble space stations in the field like that.

Let me get this straight: you think it is more reasonable to surmise that they build entire starbases at a factory somewhere and then drag them to their destinations at warp speed than it is to surmise that they probably build prefab starbase components which can be assembled on-site by technicians?

EDIT: Iron isn't a heavy metal? Isn't iron the heaviest element that can be created by fusion inside a star? What defines a heavy metal then?

Generally speaking, it's the transuranics which are considered heavy metals.

[Howedar]

It's a secret listening post, means there should be some confidential information and top secret technology. Perhaps the thick iron was there to inhibit transporters (we know thick layers of rock stop them) so that should the base be overrun, the people would have time to destroy everything so the romulans couldn't get it.

Ender, explain why you keep mentioning the word "secret". It's been ages and ages since I saw BoT, but I don't recall that word ever being used in conjunction with the base.





Mike, I thought lead was generally considered a heavy metal?

[The Kernel]

You mean the technology that is limited by geometry, thus making a two mile wide object rather difficult for a 400 metre long ship to drag through warp?

I was thinking more along the lines of specialized tugs, but I see your point.

You must be joking. Relations with the USSR stood at the brink of worldwide nuclear war for decades, for fuck's sake.

And yet, there was always a very clear understanding about the state of things. We spied on them, they spied on us and MAD continued to be effective because we knew they weren't stupid enough to want to kill themselves as well as us. None of this applies to the Romulans who are an alien race that the Federation didn't even know the physical appearance of.

Perhaps if you could show me the dialogue where anyone on the ship expressed anything resembling hope that the bases would be protected by their fiendishly clever concealment, you might have a point.

We know that Trek sensors have a hard time scanning through planetary surfaces. Since this would seem to offer a natural concealment, I'm just proposing that it might have been intentional.

I already provided an explanation which doesn't require the invention of new warp-drive abilities: they wanted to give it enough armour to make them survivable for long enough to bring reinforcements to the party.

My explanation didn't require it either; they could very well have built the bases on site. It doesn't mean they couldn't have kept them concealed while doing so. I was just throwing out the possibility.

Let me get this straight: you think it is more reasonable to surmise that they build entire starbases at a factory somewhere and then drag them to their destinations at warp speed than it is to surmise that they probably build prefab starbase components which can be assembled on-site by technicians?

Since I don't know what it takes to move a large object at warp, I have no idea.

Look, I'll concede that moving giant rocks at warp speed sounds implausible okay? They might very well have been constructed on site, or within a reasonable distance at impulse speeds.

[Darth Wong]

Mike, I thought lead was generally considered a heavy metal?

Unfortunately, the term "heavy metal" has many varying definitions, and is not really a formal scientific term. But there is no dispute over whether transuranics are heavy metals, while there is considerable dispute over elements such as lead. In the context of Star Trek, they specifically refer to actinides as being able to resist sensors, so that's the kind of heavy metal which is relevant to this discussion.

[Darth Wong]

And yet, there was always a very clear understanding about the state of things. We spied on them, they spied on us and MAD continued to be effective because we knew they weren't stupid enough to want to kill themselves as well as us. None of this applies to the Romulans who are an alien race that the Federation didn't even know the physical appearance of.

So? They were able to negotiate a peace treaty with them, including an entire negotiated Neutral Zone with clearly defined boundaries, and these listening outposts were consistent with the stipulations of that treaty. So there is still no reason to assume that they must have been secret.

We know that Trek sensors have a hard time scanning through planetary surfaces. Since this would seem to offer a natural concealment, I'm just proposing that it might have been intentional.

Given the fact that we're talking about listening outposts which regularly communicate status updates with Federation HQ, it seems highly doubtful that they're so carefully hidden. One does not broadcast from a location which is intended to be concealed from detection.

I already provided an explanation which doesn't require the invention of new warp-drive abilities: they wanted to give it enough armour to make them survivable for long enough to bring reinforcements to the party.

My explanation didn't require it either; they could very well have built the bases on site. It doesn't mean they couldn't have kept them concealed while doing so.

How are you going to conceal an excavation team which is drilling out a subterranean base if the enemy has such good sensors that you need the resulting base to be buried a mile deep?

Look, I'll concede that moving giant rocks at warp speed sounds implausible okay? They might very well have been constructed on site, or within a reasonable distance at impulse speeds.

There's still no reason to assume that the bases were secret at all.

[Ender]

It's a secret listening post, means there should be some confidential information and top secret technology. Perhaps the thick iron was there to inhibit transporters (we know thick layers of rock stop them) so that should the base be overrun, the people would have time to destroy everything so the romulans couldn't get it.

Ender, explain why you keep mentioning the word "secret". It's been ages and ages since I saw BoT, but I don't recall that word ever being used in conjunction with the base.

Typically, you don't make it widely known to someone that you are spying on them, it kinda defeats the purpose. Hence, secret is a good description.

[Darth Wong]

Typically, you don't make it widely known to someone that you are spying on them, it kinda defeats the purpose. Hence, secret is a good description.

Not necessarily. In this case, you actually want the enemy to know that he can't wander into the Neutral Zone without you seeing him.

[Lord Poe]

There's no reason for these bases to be secret. The Neutral Zone was agreed upon by both parties, so its not inconceivable that they're aren't listening posts on the Romulan side as well. That's the way it is on the Klingon border. Sorta like Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

[Howedar]

Mike, I thought lead was generally considered a heavy metal?

Unfortunately, the term "heavy metal" has many varying definitions, and is not really a formal scientific term. But there is no dispute over whether transuranics are heavy metals, while there is considerable dispute over elements such as lead. In the context of Star Trek, they specifically refer to actinides as being able to resist sensors, so that's the kind of heavy metal which is relevant to this discussion.

Okaly dokaly.

Typically, you don't make it widely known to someone that you are spying on them, it kinda defeats the purpose. Hence, secret is a good description.

How do you figure? There are many possible purposes for such a base. Straight intelligence gathering, dissuasion, a show of strength (if the base was indeed more than a listening post), etc.

How do you know which is relevant here?