Limit on Borg assimilaton?

[Ted C]

1) We know (from "The Chase") that all humanoid life in the galaxy is genetically similar: all humanoid races are basically the result of an ancient genetic engineering project.

2) The technology base in the galaxy is ancient, with races from all around the galaxy using similar propulsion (Warp drive), defense (shields), and weapon (phaser/disruptor) technologies.

3) Every Borg drone we've ever seen has been a humanoid. We also know that Borg assimilation technology has consistently failed against organisms that are not products of the ancient alien genetic program (it fails against androids as well as Species 8472, which is from another universe).

Hypothesis
Borg assimilation technology is only effective against humanoid species and "galactic standard" technologies with which the Borg are familiar. Anything truly alien to their infrastructure is essentially unfathomable to them.

[Ted C]

34 reads and no comments?

Does everyone think I'm absolutely right and nothing more need be said?

Where's Walper? I'm sure he'll have something to say about this...

Rob! Rob! I'm dissing the Borg!

[General Zod]

it makes a bit of sense, actually. the borg had trouble assimilating species 8472 because of the radical differences in their technology. if you gave someone from the 16th century, no matter how brilliant they were, a computer and a manual on how to operate it, they'd likely never be able to fully figure it out or understand how it works, simply due to the fact that the gulf in technological capabilities and knowledge is so big. same with the borg, i'd imagine. they can only assimilate that which bears something of a likeness to the technologies presented in their section of the galaxy.

[Death from the Sea]

1) We know (from "The Chase") that all humanoid life in the galaxy is genetically similar: all humanoid races are basically the result of an ancient genetic engineering project.

Not neccesarily all humanoid life just the planets which were part of that puzzle.

2) The technology base in the galaxy is ancient, with races from all around the galaxy using similar propulsion (Warp drive), defense (shields), and weapon (phaser/disruptor) technologies.

Ancient? for most of the Federation it is less than 400 years old, not like the thousands of years in the Wars Universe

3) Every Borg drone we've ever seen has been a humanoid. We also know that Borg assimilation technology has consistently failed against organisms that are not products of the ancient alien genetic program (it fails against androids as well as Species 8472, which is from another universe).

Well what purpose would it serve to assimilate animals such as dogs and such? and for other types or life forms like the Tholians which are supposed to be crystaline in nature, there may not be any advantage to assimilating them, but instead their tech. Remember the borg as described by Q in "Q Who?" are interested in tech not so much in people. This was reinforced by Voyager in the episode "Child's Play"
synopsis here

They notice that most of the buildings are small huts and the Brunali tell them that have to keep things very low-tech or the Borg will detect them and attack the planet again. The only time the Borg attack is when they think they can get new technology.

Even though Voyager managed to burn down the Borg pretty badly and piss on the ashes, it did manage one good bit and this episode was it.

Hypothesis
Borg assimilation technology is only effective against humanoid species and "galactic standard" technologies with which the Borg are familiar. Anything truly alien to their infrastructure is essentially unfathomable to them.

True at first, but given time and opportunity they will adapt.

[Ted C]

1) We know (from "The Chase") that all humanoid life in the galaxy is genetically similar: all humanoid races are basically the result of an ancient genetic engineering project.

Not neccesarily all humanoid life just the planets which were part of that puzzle.

Please explain to me why a planet would produce humanoids if it's not part of the puzzle. There is no universal imperative to produce humanoid species all over the galaxy.

2) The technology base in the galaxy is ancient, with races from all around the galaxy using similar propulsion (Warp drive), defense (shields), and weapon (phaser/disruptor) technologies.

Ancient? for most of the Federation it is less than 400 years old, not like the thousands of years in the Wars Universe

Humans got the base technologies a few centuries ago from the Vulcans, but apparently the Vulcans had them for centuries or more before that (since there's a trail of archaeological sites with Vulcan artifacts leading all the way to Romulus, as seen in "Gambit").

Meanwhile, humanoid races in the Delta Quadrant, decades away from the Alpha Quadrant at warp speeds, use essentially the same technologies. The Dominion, in the Gamma Quadrant, also uses basically the same technology (yes, they have "polaron beams" which are different, but their propulsion and shield technologies are basically the same). Face it, the technology base is very similar galaxy wide.

3) Every Borg drone we've ever seen has been a humanoid. We also know that Borg assimilation technology has consistently failed against organisms that are not products of the ancient alien genetic program (it fails against androids as well as Species 8472, which is from another universe).

Well what purpose would it serve to assimilate animals such as dogs and such? and for other types or life forms like the Tholians which are supposed to be crystaline in nature, there may not be any advantage to assimilating them, but instead their tech. Remember the borg as described by Q in "Q Who?" are interested in tech not so much in people. This was reinforced by Voyager in the episode "Child's Play"
synopsis here

Ever since BOBW, we've seen that the Borg are interested in distinctive biological traits as well as technology. Why would they not benefit from acquiring Tholian drones? How about Founder drones? How about anything that's not a bipedal humanoid?

They notice that most of the buildings are small huts and the Brunali tell them that have to keep things very low-tech or the Borg will detect them and attack the planet again. The only time the Borg attack is when they think they can get new technology.

Presumably the Borg already have all the Brunali DNA they want. Indeed, weren't the Brunali hiding out under the surface of their planet and making it look completely unpopulated? Noticeable technology on the surface would just make it apparent that there were still Brunali on the planet, which might trigger the Borg attack. It's not like the Brunali have intimate knowledge of Borg decision-making.

Even though Voyager managed to burn down the Borg pretty badly and piss on the ashes, it did manage one good bit and this episode was it.

Hypothesis
Borg assimilation technology is only effective against humanoid species and "galactic standard" technologies with which the Borg are familiar. Anything truly alien to their infrastructure is essentially unfathomable to them.

True at first, but given time and opportunity they will adapt.

Will they? How long might it take? How long had that stupid Borg drone stood there trying to assimilate tissue from the S8472 bioship before Voyager's away team showed up ("Scorpion")? They later saw a video of their own nanoprobes being used to effectively attack S8472 cells; why couldn't they experiment with that concept on their own? Is S8472 tissue so alien that they can't even figure out where to start? Despite being shown that it can be accomplished using their existing technology?

What about the hundreds of cubes they lost in battle to S8472? Shouldn't they have adapted to S8472 weapons through exposure? Or was the weapon simply so alien to their technology base that they couldn't figure out how to counter it?

Track Record: Borg are good against the plethora of genetically-compatible humanoid species and common Treknologies, but virtually helpless against anything truly alien.

[Publius]

The Borg Collective's poor performance against Species 8472 is also indicative of a profoundly stultifying groupthink on the part of the Collective (which really ought to be expected). The Collective simply has no imagination or creative thinking ability, which could also account for its failure to assimilate wholly alien subjects such as Species 8472.

PUBLIUS

[Eframepilot]

It is true that we have not seen any nonhumanoid Borg, but this does not necessarily point to weakness in Borg technology's ability to assimilate. Points:

- Virtually every species that we have seen is humanoid; most nonhumanoids are either incorporeal superbeings or would make very poor drones anyway. (Medusans - kept in small boxes. Sheliak - walking tarpits. Hortas - enough said. Can't think of any others. We really have no clue what Tholians are like; the one shown could have been a humanoid in a funny helmet)

- The Founders are halfway into the superbeing category. Founders can alter the elemental makeup of their bodies, change mass at will, become gaseous in form and retain their intelligence, and even become warp-capable organic starships. And what would a Founder drone look like, anyway? Wouldn't it just look like a pasty-faced Odo with bionic implants?

- While the Borg did fail to assimilate Species 8472, keep in mind that 8472 are also insanely durable, capable of tearing through starship hulls with their bare hands and withstanding multiple phaser shots. And the nanoprobes had no trouble with this superspecies once the Doctor had made a simple adjustment to them!

- Technology does seem to be very standardized in the Trek galaxy, but shouldn't it be? The laws of physics are constant and thus one would expect that roughly the same technological advancements would be made and the most efficient technologies would find the most usage. Our thoughts have been contaminated by hyperdrives and jumpgates, but in a purely Trek analysis, there is no reason to expect technology to vary incredibly.

- Finally, there are examples of Borg technology succeeding in incredible feats even when the Collective itself does not use it. There is the 8472 incident, who were from a different plane of reality and insanely physically powerful and yet proved vulnerable to slightly altered nanoprobes. Also, there was One. When some of Seven's nanoprobes infested the Holodoc's emitter, they managed to create One, a drone far more advanced than any in the Collective with personal shields more powerful than a Borg Sphere's and a built-in transporter! All that from a little holoemitter!

Conclusion: The Borg's ability to assimilate diverse species and technologies and even improve upon them is incredible, only the Borg are too fucking stupid to make use of it properly. Kind of like their inability to send more than one cube at a time at Earth.

[Jeremy]

makes me wonder if someone managed to infect the Borg with some computer code so that they would be noninnovative

[neoolong]

What about the non-humanoid Xindi?

[Laird]

Ted,Rob(If you mean walper?) Is currently moving into a new apartment and will have cable on I think Tues of next week.

I informed him of your thread...he will respond.

[Eframepilot]

What about the non-humanoid Xindi?

Good point. They seem to be the exception to the humanoid rule. But we have no idea what will happen to them by the 24th century; they may be extinct or even more advanced than the Borg.

[Death from the Sea]

Please explain to me why a planet would produce humanoids if it's not part of the puzzle. There is no universal imperative to produce humanoid species all over the galaxy.

The reason I say the only those planets that are part of the puzzle is because in the TNG episode "The Chase" the message they get when they get all the pieces says that the only way they hoped that all of their "children" races would work together to figure this puzzle out. What would be the point in only putting puzzle pieces on some of the planets then it would not require all of them joining up as they hoped would happen. Besides I don't think that Picards friend went to the far reaches of the galaxy to collect his dna pieces, seeing as how they don't have fast enough ships. So the humanoid species on the far side of the gamma and delta quadrants can't be linked like you suggest. As to WHY only humanoids evovle, I don't know.

Ancient? for most of the Federation it is less than 400 years old, not like the thousands of years in the Wars Universe

Humans got the base technologies a few centuries ago from the Vulcans, but apparently the Vulcans had them for centuries or more before that (since there's a trail of archaeological sites with Vulcan artifacts leading all the way to Romulus, as seen in "Gambit").

But the Vulcans have not really given much to Starfleet as seen in Enterprise, they wouldn't even given them a look at the vulcan tractor beam. And as for the trail of Vulcan artifacts from Vulcan to Romulus, you are forgetting that Romulans are an offshoot of the Vulcans and since it looks like the Romulans left Vulcan before they had warp capable ships, it is very probable that they made a few stops on the way and left things behind.

Meanwhile, humanoid races in the Delta Quadrant, decades away from the Alpha Quadrant at warp speeds, use essentially the same technologies. The Dominion, in the Gamma Quadrant, also uses basically the same technology (yes, they have "polaron beams" which are different, but their propulsion and shield technologies are basically the same). Face it, the technology base is very similar galaxy wide.

I will concede the point of the tech base being similar, but just remember we see races with much different tech like the slipstream drive which that race was easily assimilated. The Borg have transwarp drive which is somewhat unique. Besides it is the same with most every sci-fi franchise that the tech base is similar galaxy wide.

3) Every Borg drone we've ever seen has been a humanoid. We also know that Borg assimilation technology has consistently failed against organisms that are not products of the ancient alien genetic program (it fails against androids as well as Species 8472, which is from another universe).

Well what purpose would it serve to assimilate animals such as dogs and such? and for other types or life forms like the Tholians which are supposed to be crystaline in nature, there may not be any advantage to assimilating them, but instead their tech. Remember the borg as described by Q in "Q Who?" are interested in tech not so much in people. This was reinforced by Voyager in the episode "Child's Play"
synopsis here

Ever since BOBW, we've seen that the Borg are interested in distinctive biological traits as well as technology. Why would they not benefit from acquiring Tholian drones? How about Founder drones? How about anything that's not a bipedal humanoid?

What is the advantage to having a drone that is essentially a rock? and as for the founders well, I think adding permanent mechanical parts would severely limit their usefulness as shapeshifters. And acutally in BoBW they are not interested in the biological as mush as they are the tech, it is a brain bug that they want people. They were still the tech scavengers, they just assimilated Picard to attempt to have a emmisary that would bridge the gap and allow the Borg to come in and take the tech. After the encounter in "Q Who?" the Borg had to do something about the possible threat from the Federation, plus they would get new tech in the proccess. One more thing that can explain why they are interested in certain biological traits is that they can gain the best traits from each species and combine them to make a better drone with a more resilient organic half.

They notice that most of the buildings are small huts and the Brunali tell them that have to keep things very low-tech or the Borg will detect them and attack the planet again. The only time the Borg attack is when they think they can get new technology.

Presumably the Borg already have all the Brunali DNA they want. Indeed, weren't the Brunali hiding out under the surface of their planet and making it look completely unpopulated? Noticeable technology on the surface would just make it apparent that there were still Brunali on the planet, which might trigger the Borg attack. It's not like the Brunali have intimate knowledge of Borg decision-making.

They appeared to be living on the surface as they had huts and small buildings on the surface, why have those if you live underground? And one can judge anothers decision making from their behavior which is probably how the Brunali know the Borg attack when they want their tech. And if they were interested in only in Brunali DNA they had all they wanted then why would they ever come back? The borg returned for the shuttle that the Brunali placed Icheb in to attract the borg, clearly they are coming because of the tech, the added bonus of new drones and such is that a bonus.

Even though Voyager managed to burn down the Borg pretty badly and piss on the ashes, it did manage one good bit and this episode was it.

Hypothesis
Borg assimilation technology is only effective against humanoid species and "galactic standard" technologies with which the Borg are familiar. Anything truly alien to their infrastructure is essentially unfathomable to them.

True at first, but given time and opportunity they will adapt.

Will they? How long might it take? How long had that stupid Borg drone stood there trying to assimilate tissue from the S8472 bioship before Voyager's away team showed up ("Scorpion")? They later saw a video of their own nanoprobes being used to effectively attack S8472 cells; why couldn't they experiment with that concept on their own? Is S8472 tissue so alien that they can't even figure out where to start? Despite being shown that it can be accomplished using their existing technology?

what you are saying is possible but I believe given time they would have adapted, but at the rate that S8472 was ripping throught the Borg it might have been too late. Their biggest problem in solving new problems would be the groupthink they have that would limit them.

What about the hundreds of cubes they lost in battle to S8472? Shouldn't they have adapted to S8472 weapons through exposure? Or was the weapon simply so alien to their technology base that they couldn't figure out how to counter it?

I would say a combination of it being so different and how powerful they were compared to other Star Trek races. But this problem of adapting to alien tech is not limited to the Borg, remember that Starfleet had to get a Dominion ship with a working poloran beam weapon and then another one with the energy dampener to adapt to those technologies.

Track Record: Borg are good against the plethora of genetically-compatible humanoid species and common Treknologies, but virtually helpless against anything truly alien.

Also remember that the S8472 is from another universe/dimension or whatever and that is going to take TIME for the Borg to adapt to them. I still say given time they will adapt.

[Ted C]

But the Vulcans have not really given much to Starfleet as seen in Enterprise, they wouldn't even given them a look at the vulcan tractor beam. And as for the trail of Vulcan artifacts from Vulcan to Romulus, you are forgetting that Romulans are an offshoot of the Vulcans and since it looks like the Romulans left Vulcan before they had warp capable ships, it is very probable that they made a few stops on the way and left things behind.

In the Enterprise-era, the Vulcans haven't shared tractor beam and some other technologies with humans yet. Nonetheless, there's no discernable difference between TNG-era Starfleet tractor technology and Enterprise-era Vulcan tractor technology.

Is there evidence that the Vulcans who eventually settled on Romulus didn't have warp technology when they left? Remember that at low warp speeds, it can still take years or decades to travel even moderate distances, especially if you're power supply doesn't carry enough fuel to go very far and you have to stop and build mining and refining facilities every few light-years.

Meanwhile, humanoid races in the Delta Quadrant, decades away from the Alpha Quadrant at warp speeds, use essentially the same technologies. The Dominion, in the Gamma Quadrant, also uses basically the same technology (yes, they have "polaron beams" which are different, but their propulsion and shield technologies are basically the same). Face it, the technology base is very similar galaxy wide.

I will concede the point of the tech base being similar, but just remember we see races with much different tech like the slipstream drive which that race was easily assimilated. The Borg have transwarp drive which is somewhat unique. Besides it is the same with most every sci-fi franchise that the tech base is similar galaxy wide.

Transwarp conduits are somewhat unique, but transwarp drive certainly isn't (the Voth have apparently had it for a long time). They assimilated the race that developed quantum slipstream, but we've seen no sign that they've managed to get it to work on their starships.

A common technology base isn't unusual in sci-fi, and that's fine. Most of the Young Races in B5, for instance, seem to trace their technology back to the Vorlons. The point in Trek is that races that have apparently never encountered each other, like the Humans and Kazon or Klingons and Jem'Hadar, seem to be using technology derived from a common origin.

Ever since BOBW, we've seen that the Borg are interested in distinctive biological traits as well as technology. Why would they not benefit from acquiring Tholian drones? How about Founder drones? How about anything that's not a bipedal humanoid?

What is the advantage to having a drone that is essentially a rock?

Being made of crystal apparently works well for the Tholians. They certainly have "biological distinctiveness". They're probably pretty hard to injure; "Devil in the Dark" showed that the common phaser weaponry is less effective against silicon-based life, so the Tholians might also be resistant. They can probably live comfortably in environments that would easily kill a humanoid.

What would be the disadvantage of having some Tholian drones, if you think the Borg wouldn't be interested in them.

... and as for the founders well, I think adding permanent mechanical parts would severely limit their usefulness as shapeshifters.

Not necessarily. They can always conceal the "implants" by covering them with tissue. They might not be able to imitate something smaller than their implants, but they would still have great versatility in shape.

And acutally in BoBW they are not interested in the biological as mush as they are the tech, it is a brain bug that they want people.

It's apparently a brain bug that became the standard, since the Borg invaded an alternate universe, Fluidic Space, to assimilate a race that doesn't use "technology" in any conventional sense (S8472 ships apparently have the same genetic structure as the bipedal S8472 "race", so the Borg were after nothing but genetic material).

They were still the tech scavengers, they just assimilated Picard to attempt to have a emmisary that would bridge the gap and allow the Borg to come in and take the tech.

Events after BOBW refute that claim. The Federation simply had a poor understanding of Borg motivation before that incident.

After the encounter in "Q Who?" the Borg had to do something about the possible threat from the Federation, plus they would get new tech in the proccess.

Why would the Borg regard the Federation as a threat?

One more thing that can explain why they are interested in certain biological traits is that they can gain the best traits from each species and combine them to make a better drone with a more resilient organic half.

Meaning that their assimilation technology would be tailored to races with compatible biology, hence it would be essentially useless against races with incompatible biology.

They appeared to be living on the surface as they had huts and small buildings on the surface, why have those if you live underground? And one can judge anothers decision making from their behavior which is probably how the Brunali know the Borg attack when they want their tech. And if they were interested in only in Brunali DNA they had all they wanted then why would they ever come back? The borg returned for the shuttle that the Brunali placed Icheb in to attract the borg, clearly they are coming because of the tech, the added bonus of new drones and such is that a bonus.

When was the last Borg attack? Are we sure they were even attacked more than once? Are the Borg even interested in the Brunali, anymore? They certainly didn't settle the planet. Borg activity regarding the Brunali is making less and less sense, since the Brunali apparently have nothing to offer the Borg that they didn't have the first time the Borg attacked.

Will they? How long might it take? How long had that stupid Borg drone stood there trying to assimilate tissue from the S8472 bioship before Voyager's away team showed up ("Scorpion")? They later saw a video of their own nanoprobes being used to effectively attack S8472 cells; why couldn't they experiment with that concept on their own? Is S8472 tissue so alien that they can't even figure out where to start? Despite being shown that it can be accomplished using their existing technology?

what you are saying is possible but I believe given time they would have adapted, but at the rate that S8472 was ripping throught the Borg it might have been too late. Their biggest problem in solving new problems would be the groupthink they have that would limit them.

It was becoming apparent by "Scorpion" that the Borg don't learn much at all about things they can't assimilate.

What about the hundreds of cubes they lost in battle to S8472? Shouldn't they have adapted to S8472 weapons through exposure? Or was the weapon simply so alien to their technology base that they couldn't figure out how to counter it?

I would say a combination of it being so different and how powerful they were compared to other Star Trek races.

They weren't so powerful that they could easily destroy Voyager with a single shot.

But this problem of adapting to alien tech is not limited to the Borg, remember that Starfleet had to get a Dominion ship with a working poloran beam weapon and then another one with the energy dampener to adapt to those technologies.

At least they understood the problem and were able to make plans to obtain the information they needed. The Borg don't even seem to be that bright.

Track Record: Borg are good against the plethora of genetically-compatible humanoid species and common Treknologies, but virtually helpless against anything truly alien.

Also remember that the S8472 is from another universe/dimension or whatever and that is going to take TIME for the Borg to adapt to them. I still say given time they will adapt.

Not if they learn "only by assimilation", as "Scorpion" suggested.

[Robert Walper]

1) We know (from "The Chase") that all humanoid life in the galaxy is genetically similar: all humanoid races are basically the result of an ancient genetic engineering project.

Agreed.

2) The technology base in the galaxy is ancient, with races from all around the galaxy using similar propulsion (Warp drive),

Umm...not necessarily. In the Aplpha quadrant, and gamma quadrant, warp seems to be the norm. But in the Delta, other forms of FTL travel seem to be common as well. Transwarp, slipstream, catapult systems, etc. Your overall point would stand though, but it seems the Borg in the Star Trek galaxy have the best FTL systems known to any conventional power. Transwarp coils can allow spacecraft to travel 200 lightyears in under ten seconds, conduits can fling a ship across 65 lightyears in under seven seconds, Borg transwarp hubs can fling vessels across the galaxy in minutes. It would seem the Borg have the best FTL of all observed races in Trek(conventional ones I mean).

defense (shields),

Michael Wong has made the point that Trek shielding seems to suffer badly from over specification. Known types of threats are shielded against, but unknown ones can pass right through them. In this light, Borg shielding would also seem to be the best solution utilizing the Trek technology basis. They adapt their shielding on the fly to whatever threat is presented. This has drawbacks as well, but is better than the pathetic examples of Sona shielding against chemical explosions, etc. Given Borg hulls can take incredible poundings by entire fleets of Federation ships, they seem to have been prepared for damage to their hulls so they have time to adapt to new types of weapons or other inflicted damage.

and weapon (phaser/disruptor) technologies.

3) Every Borg drone we've ever seen has been a humanoid.

Not surprising given your first statement. The majority of races are humanoid.

We also know that Borg assimilation technology has consistently failed against organisms that are not products of the ancient alien genetic program (it fails against androids

It is my opinion that the Borg could have assimilated Data if they chose to do so, however their assimilation speed would have been inadaquate against his capability to purge any valueable data from his own storage devices. This is the major problem with a sentient computer system, it should and would be able to do this, making extracting information from it next impossible unless the information extraction would be faster than the computer purging it. Even the Borg's nanoprobe assimilation takes many seconds, if not minutes to assimilate a victim. Data could easily have used his ability to purge the codes from his system as a bargaining chip against the Borg.

as well as Species 8472, which is from another universe).

Umm...Species 8472 actually can be assimilated by Borg technology, the Doctor did it when they found the Species 8472 outpost studying Earth's Starfleet command.

I ask you this, at what point did the Borg have the opportunity to study Species 8472 genetic material? Borg cubes were slaughtered by the hundreds, planets fragmented by Species 8472 bioships. Even Borg drones on derelict pieces of Borg craft were systematically hunted down and torn apart by Species 8472 organisms.

The Docter had access to Species 8472 genetic material which allowed him to come up with a method of assimilation by Borg nanoprobes. But he needed Species 8472 genetic material to work with. The Borg did not, and evidence heavily suggests Species 8472 was preventing them from gaining any.

Hypothesis
Borg assimilation technology is only effective against humanoid species

I would say any species that has blood cells identifiable to Borg nanoprobes would be vulnerable. Even Species 8472 cells can be assimilated, the Borg merely lacked the resources by which to study any Species 8472 genetic material and adapt. They cannot test without source material, and as I stated earlier, indications are that Species 8472 didn't allow them this opportunity. Voyager on the other hand wasn't pursued or an immediate target by Species 8472, so they had time and material to work with. The Borg had little time and no material.

and "galactic standard" technologies with which the Borg are familiar. Anything truly alien to their infrastructure is essentially unfathomable to them.

Obviously Trek suffers from a galactic wide common technological basis, but indications are the Borg are obviously at the top of this food chain("omnipotent" and non-conventional species aside), with the greatest FTL speeds, largests numbers, firepower, etc.

PS: I need to make my website dammnit! Hope to have your input on it too Ted. I should be on the internet permnantly within the next week and a half, I just finished moving in so my cable should be hooked up soon. I'd gladly discuss further Borg curiousities then. In the meantimem, my observation of this thread is quite limited, but I got you your response.

[Sarevok]

The Docter had access to Species 8472 genetic material which allowed him to come up with a method of assimilation by Borg nanoprobes. But he needed Species 8472 genetic material to work with. The Borg did not, and evidence heavily suggests Species 8472 was preventing them from gaining any.

In "Scorpion" we see a Borg drone trying to inject nanites into the hull of the crahed Bioship. But it was having no effect. So despite having access to a crashed Bioship the Borg were unable to study the genetic material.

[Death from the Sea]

The Docter had access to Species 8472 genetic material which allowed him to come up with a method of assimilation by Borg nanoprobes. But he needed Species 8472 genetic material to work with. The Borg did not, and evidence heavily suggests Species 8472 was preventing them from gaining any.

In "Scorpion" we see a Borg drone trying to inject nanites into the hull of the crahed Bioship. But it was having no effect. So despite having access to a crashed Bioship the Borg were unable to study the genetic material.

those Borg were under attack from the S8472 pilot of that ship, not to mention the cube IIRC was out on it's own which means they really didn't have the time to study said vessel.

[Sarevok]

those Borg were under attack from the S8472 pilot of that ship, not to mention the cube IIRC was out on it's own which means they really didn't have the time to study said vessel

Could not they simply do a quick scan of the ship and send the data back to the collective f?

[Ted C]

2) The technology base in the galaxy is ancient, with races from all around the galaxy using similar propulsion (Warp drive),

Umm...not necessarily. In the Aplpha quadrant, and gamma quadrant, warp seems to be the norm.

It seems to be the norm throughout the galaxy. Even races with access to other propulsion technologies have warp drives. The Borg were using warp drive in "Q Who" and "Best of Both Worlds".

But in the Delta, other forms of FTL travel seem to be common as well. Transwarp, slipstream, catapult systems, etc.

As far as I know, there are two civilizations in the galaxy that have transwarp drive: the Borg and the Voth. There was apparently only one civilization that had slipstream, and that civilization was assimilated (meanting there's still only one civilization, the Borg, with that technology, and they don't seem to use it). Is there evidence of more than one civilization with "catapult" technology? Other propulsion technologies? Unique propulsion systems are scattered around the galaxy, but warp drive is everywhere.

Your overall point would stand though, but it seems the Borg in the Star Trek galaxy have the best FTL systems known to any conventional power.

The Borg do seem to have assimilated an assortment of improvements on warp technology, but there propulsion apparently still uses the same basic concept.

Transwarp coils can allow spacecraft to travel 200 lightyears in under ten seconds, conduits can fling a ship across 65 lightyears in under seven seconds, Borg transwarp hubs can fling vessels across the galaxy in minutes. It would seem the Borg have the best FTL of all observed races in Trek(conventional ones I mean).

Better performance, yes. Different technological base, no. Remember, the Federation knew the theory behind transwarp in Kirk's time, they just couldn't get it to work (despite building a large prototype vessel, the Excelsior).

defense (shields),

Michael Wong has made the point that Trek shielding seems to suffer badly from over specification. Known types of threats are shielded against, but unknown ones can pass right through them. In this light, Borg shielding would also seem to be the best solution utilizing the Trek technology basis. They adapt their shielding on the fly to whatever threat is presented.

Actually, you've just described a characteristic that helps show that Borg shielding uses the same basic shield technology. Borg shields need to be adjusted to deal with new threats, just like the shields the Federation uses. The Borg are just able to make that adjustment faster. Once again, we see an improvement on the same technological base.

This has drawbacks as well, but is better than the pathetic examples of Sona shielding against chemical explosions, etc. Given Borg hulls can take incredible poundings by entire fleets of Federation ships, they seem to have been prepared for damage to their hulls so they have time to adapt to new types of weapons or other inflicted damage.

The Borg do build huge ships with lots of redundancy, which helps them survive attack until their shields adapt, but that doesn't show a different technological base.

and weapon (phaser/disruptor) technologies.

3) Every Borg drone we've ever seen has been a humanoid.

Not surprising given your first statement. The majority of races are humanoid.

We also know that Borg assimilation technology has consistently failed against organisms that are not products of the ancient alien genetic program (it fails against androids

It is my opinion that the Borg could have assimilated Data if they chose to do so, however their assimilation speed would have been inadaquate against his capability to purge any valueable data from his own storage devices.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's any evidence to support your interpretation. In "Scorpion", we saw that Voyager had to make just such a threat to keep the Borg from assimilating them: if the Borg attempted to assimilate Voyager, the Holodoc would delete the data they needed to fight S8472. Data did not need to make any such ultimatum in First Contact; he was confident that the Borg couldn't assimilate him, and the Borg made no effort to contradict him.

This isn't really all that surprising; Data's positronic brain is apparently one of the few truly unique technologies developed by humans. That Paxons were just as stumped by Data's positronic brain as the Borg (ref. TNG "Clues").

This is the major problem with a sentient computer system, it should and would be able to do this, making extracting information from it next impossible unless the information extraction would be faster than the computer purging it. Even the Borg's nanoprobe assimilation takes many seconds, if not minutes to assimilate a victim. Data could easily have used his ability to purge the codes from his system as a bargaining chip against the Borg.

as well as Species 8472, which is from another universe).

Umm...Species 8472 actually can be assimilated by Borg technology, the Doctor did it when they found the Species 8472 outpost studying Earth's Starfleet command.

True, but it apparently never has difficulty assimilating the humanoid species common to our galaxy. S8472 was alien enough to completely stump the Borg, even though their nanoprobes only needed minor reprogramming to be effective.

I ask you this, at what point did the Borg have the opportunity to study Species 8472 genetic material?

The Borg knew at least enough about S8472 to decide they wanted to assimilate them for their genetic material. This suggests that they must have had a tissue sample at least long enough to decide the aliens were worth assimilating. It's not like S8472 had inorganic technology to attract the Collective's attention.

Borg cubes were slaughtered by the hundreds, planets fragmented by Species 8472 bioships. Even Borg drones on derelict pieces of Borg craft were systematically hunted down and torn apart by Species 8472 organisms.

Nonetheless, those drones would still be in contact with the Collective until they were destroyed. Evidently they lack the tools to analyze a tissue sample in the time it takes a single S8472 "soldier" to wander through a damaged cube and kill every drone on board.

The Docter had access to Species 8472 genetic material which allowed him to come up with a method of assimilation by Borg nanoprobes. But he needed Species 8472 genetic material to work with. The Borg did not, and evidence heavily suggests Species 8472 was preventing them from gaining any.

Hypothesis
Borg assimilation technology is only effective against humanoid species

I would say any species that has blood cells identifiable to Borg nanoprobes would be vulnerable.

OK, that's arguable. Even S8472 is vaguely humanoid. It would be interesting to see a Tholian drone, or a drone of any species that isn't obviously humanoid, to verify that Borg assimilation technology works on truly different life forms.

Even Species 8472 cells can be assimilated, the Borg merely lacked the resources by which to study any Species 8472 genetic material and adapt. They cannot test without source material, and as I stated earlier, indications are that Species 8472 didn't allow them this opportunity. Voyager on the other hand wasn't pursued or an immediate target by Species 8472, so they had time and material to work with. The Borg had little time and no material.

and "galactic standard" technologies with which the Borg are familiar. Anything truly alien to their infrastructure is essentially unfathomable to them.

Obviously Trek suffers from a galactic wide common technological basis, but indications are the Borg are obviously at the top of this food chain("omnipotent" and non-conventional species aside), with the greatest FTL speeds, largests numbers, firepower, etc.

The problem, Rob, is that being at the "top of the technological food chain" in Trek doesn't require being able to assimilate really alien species or technologies. They've got the best versions of all the basic technologies in the galaxy, but they don't really have the ability to handle anything outside that basic infrastructure. Now, if they can assimilate a civilization that possesses a unique technology, then the technology can become part of the Borg "base", but that doesn't happen very often. They don't even use the one technology (slipstream) that they acquired that way.

PS: I need to make my website dammnit! Hope to have your input on it too Ted.

Always happy to help. You have the marvelous trait of actually listening to people's arguments, which is all too rare among debaters these days. You can take an awful lot of convincing , but you're not inflexible.

[Robert Walper]

Umm...not necessarily. In the Aplpha quadrant, and gamma quadrant, warp seems to be the norm.

It seems to be the norm throughout the galaxy. Even races with access to other propulsion technologies have warp drives. The Borg were using warp drive in "Q Who" and "Best of Both Worlds".

Agreed. I would merely argue the Borg can use Transwarp quite easily if required, and Transwarp is bloodly fast by calcs I've determined.

But in the Delta, other forms of FTL travel seem to be common as well. Transwarp, slipstream, catapult systems, etc.

As far as I know, there are two civilizations in the galaxy that have transwarp drive: the Borg and the Voth.

That we know of for certain I would argue. Other races not seen may very well have Transwarp or other faster FTL drive systems in comparison to warp. But your overall point stands.

There was apparently only one civilization that had slipstream, and that civilization was assimilated (meanting there's still only one civilization, the Borg, with that technology, and they don't seem to use it).

Given that Slipstream FTL factors are inferior to Transwarp ones, this is hardly surprising. Slipstream is visually identical to Transwarp, but Transwarp examples are vastly superior.

Is there evidence of more than one civilization with "catapult" technology?

My bad. So far as I know, only one individual created such a catapult, and once used, it was discarded by both him and Voyager, since using it again was obviously not possible.

Other propulsion technologies? Unique propulsion systems are scattered around the galaxy, but warp drive is everywhere.

Point conceeded.

Your overall point would stand though, but it seems the Borg in the Star Trek galaxy have the best FTL systems known to any conventional power.

The Borg do seem to have assimilated an assortment of improvements on warp technology, but there propulsion apparently still uses the same basic concept.

Agreed. I'd point out nothing more than that when crusing at warp, they use very high factors, and with apparent ease.

Transwarp coils can allow spacecraft to travel 200 lightyears in under ten seconds, conduits can fling a ship across 65 lightyears in under seven seconds, Borg transwarp hubs can fling vessels across the galaxy in minutes. It would seem the Borg have the best FTL of all observed races in Trek(conventional ones I mean).

Better performance, yes. Different technological base, no. Remember, the Federation knew the theory behind transwarp in Kirk's time, they just couldn't get it to work (despite building a large prototype vessel, the Excelsior).

It was my impression that that specific "Transwarp" system was merely a failed attempt to make a stardrive capable of jumping instanteously to any warp factor rather than having to work through the entire chain of warp 1,2,3, etc.

Additonally, simply terming the drive system Transwarp does not necessarily imply Transwarp in any form the Borg or Voth have used it, or future Federation ships have experienced it. Don't forget, in the Pilot episode of TOS, they literately stated their drive system as "Hyperdrive", and obivously that term is rather subjective.

Michael Wong has made the point that Trek shielding seems to suffer badly from over specification. Known types of threats are shielded against, but unknown ones can pass right through them. In this light, Borg shielding would also seem to be the best solution utilizing the Trek technology basis. They adapt their shielding on the fly to whatever threat is presented.

Actually, you've just described a characteristic that helps show that Borg shielding uses the same basic shield technology. Borg shields need to be adjusted to deal with new threats, just like the shields the Federation uses. The Borg are just able to make that adjustment faster.

Much faster I'd argue.

Once again, we see an improvement on the same technological base.

Agreed.

This has drawbacks as well, but is better than the pathetic examples of Sona shielding against chemical explosions, etc. Given Borg hulls can take incredible poundings by entire fleets of Federation ships, they seem to have been prepared for damage to their hulls so they have time to adapt to new types of weapons or other inflicted damage.

The Borg do build huge ships with lots of redundancy, which helps them survive attack until their shields adapt, but that doesn't show a different technological base.

Conceded, although I don't think that was what I was attempting to imply. Just more rambling about Borg capabilities on my part.

It is my opinion that the Borg could have assimilated Data if they chose to do so, however their assimilation speed would have been inadaquate against his capability to purge any valueable data from his own storage devices.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's any evidence to support your interpretation. In "Scorpion", we saw that Voyager had to make just such a threat to keep the Borg from assimilating them: if the Borg attempted to assimilate Voyager, the Holodoc would delete the data they needed to fight S8472.

You're just provided the evidence that a threat of assimilation can be delayed or prevented by threatening to destroy what it is the Borg are after, which is my point about Data.

Data did not need to make any such ultimatum in First Contact; he was confident that the Borg couldn't assimilate him, and the Borg made no effort to contradict him.

His confidence is irrelevent. The Borg were assimilating him, and with apparent ease(don't forget they did have limited resources on hand). They grafted organic components onto his body. Being a machine with organic components made him a cyborg, which is what the Borg are. They were assimilating him, and it was beyond his comprehension on how they were doing it. I've merely stated the theory(which I think has some definite merit) as to why assimilating information from his brain would be next to impossible. This is due to the limitation on Borg assimilation speed, not capability.

This isn't really all that surprising; Data's positronic brain is apparently one of the few truly unique technologies developed by humans. That Paxons were just as stumped by Data's positronic brain as the Borg (ref. TNG "Clues").

There's no evidence in my opinion that would imply the Borg were "stumped" by Data's positronic brain. The Borg method of assimilation just simply wouldn't be fast enough to take him over without him having the time to purge valueable data from his mind. Frankly, the Borg being aware of this possiblity isn't improbable in my opinion. My assertion is that Data was being physically assimilated quite clearly, only his individuality remained intact, and for reasons that I have stipulated which make alot of sense to me.

Umm...Species 8472 actually can be assimilated by Borg technology, the Doctor did it when they found the Species 8472 outpost studying Earth's Starfleet command.

True, but it apparently never has difficulty assimilating the humanoid species common to our galaxy.

That we know of, agreed.

S8472 was alien enough to completely stump the Borg, even though their nanoprobes only needed minor reprogramming to be effective.

Due to lack of information, material to work with and time to utilize any such information in my opinion.

I ask you this, at what point did the Borg have the opportunity to study Species 8472 genetic material?

The Borg knew at least enough about S8472 to decide they wanted to assimilate them for their genetic material.

Seven of Nine stated the Borg found Species 8472 to be a major threat, and their solution was to "destroy them first!". The Borg's priority of assimilating Species 8472 didn't seem that high, if existent at all. Seven of Nine stated in STVOY "Dark Frontier" the Borg destroy threats, they don't assimilate them unless targetted for such a purpose.

This suggests that they must have had a tissue sample at least long enough to decide the aliens were worth assimilating.

See above.

It's not like S8472 had inorganic technology to attract the Collective's attention.

Agreed. The Borg do assimilate species purely for biological gain, however, evidence suggests the Borg had very little, if any Species 8472 genetic material to work with. Evidence also suggests Species 8472 was actively preventing the Borg from gaining any such advantage as well.

Borg cubes were slaughtered by the hundreds, planets fragmented by Species 8472 bioships. Even Borg drones on derelict pieces of Borg craft were systematically hunted down and torn apart by Species 8472 organisms.

Nonetheless, those drones would still be in contact with the Collective until they were destroyed.

Not if the Borg Vinculum and Central plexus are destroyed, and given the erratic activity witnessed, this would seem to be the case(drones can function while seperated from the hive mind, but quite porrly). Given the Borg ships were blown into debris fields, this isn't exactly unlikely either. Additionally, Seven of Nine stated in STVOY "Prey" that Species 8472, when boarding a vessel, seeks the most efficent method of disrupting and/or destroying said boarded vessel. Destroying the technology that maintains a link to the hive mind would be a high priority goal in such attacks, particularily if Species 8472 is intent on preventing any type of analysis on the Borg's part.

Evidently they lack the tools to analyze a tissue sample in the time it takes a single S8472 "soldier" to wander through a damaged cube and kill every drone on board.

Given their vessels are blown into debris fields, with the link to the Hive mind disrupted or destroyed altogether, I hardly find this surprising.

I daresay any sci-fi power would find it extremely difficult to perform their best scientific analysis when your ship is blown into fragments with boarding enemies tearing through your remaining hull sections and troops like butter.

I would say any species that has blood cells identifiable to Borg nanoprobes would be vulnerable.

OK, that's arguable. Even S8472 is vaguely humanoid. It would be interesting to see a Tholian drone, or a drone of any species that isn't obviously humanoid, to verify that Borg assimilation technology works on truly different life forms.

Given the Doctor specifically stated and showed evidence that Borg nanoprobes attack blood cells, blood cells identifiable to the nanoprobes should be attacked in such a manner, unless prevented by some means(like a ultra effective immune system).

Obviously Trek suffers from a galactic wide common technological basis, but indications are the Borg are obviously at the top of this food chain("omnipotent" and non-conventional species aside), with the greatest FTL speeds, largests numbers, firepower, etc.

The problem, Rob, is that being at the "top of the technological food chain" in Trek doesn't require being able to assimilate really alien species or technologies.

Possibly, but it should be noted that I think the two examples you have provided(Data the andriod and Species 8472) aren't effective arguements against Borg assimilation. Both examples either destroy the Borg capability to assimilate before it's implemented, or destroy what the Borg are after before they can assimilate it.

They've got the best versions of all the basic technologies in the galaxy, but they don't really have the ability to handle anything outside that basic infrastructure.

Then frankly they would be completely unable to excerise their primary goal, which is "add" biological and technology distinctiveness to their Collective. If they are adding anything, it would have to be outside their technological and biological basis to have any value by that criteria.

Now, if they can assimilate a civilization that possesses a unique technology, then the technology can become part of the Borg "base", but that doesn't happen very often.

Apparently you submit it has happened, therefore I would think you've invalidated your own point.

They don't even use the one technology (slipstream) that they acquired that way.

It's visually indentical to Transwarp anyhow, and inferior to boot.

PS: I need to make my website dammnit! Hope to have your input on it too Ted.

Always happy to help. You have the marvelous trait of actually listening to people's arguments, which is all too rare among debaters these days.

I should include that in my sig. Probably shock some here to see someone say that.

You can take an awful lot of convincing , but you're not inflexible.

Well, persistence as you said, is a quality I share with the Borg. One must admit, your own persistence paid off in convincing me about the Borg KE shielding arguement.

PS: Sorry about the long delay in reponse Ted, I just finished moving in, and my cable just got hooked up. My future responses should be much more prompt now, with e-mail corrospondense being possible again.

[Ted C]

I would merely argue the Borg can use Transwarp quite easily if required, and Transwarp is bloodly fast by calcs I've determined.

You've shown one instance ("Descent") that establishes a benchmark for transwarp conduits, but you haven't, to my knowledge, established a lower limit for transwarp drive.

As far as I know, there are two civilizations in the galaxy that have transwarp drive: the Borg and the Voth.

That we know of for certain I would argue.

Given that I prefaced my statement with "As far as I know...", why did you even bother to say this?

There was apparently only one civilization that had slipstream, and that civilization was assimilated (meanting there's still only one civilization, the Borg, with that technology, and they don't seem to use it).

Given that Slipstream FTL factors are inferior to Transwarp ones, this is hardly surprising. Slipstream is visually identical to Transwarp, but Transwarp examples are vastly superior.

If Slipstream is essentially indistinguishable from transwarp, which seems to be an improved version of the common warp drive, why should we think slipstream is anything but another improvement on the basic warp drive.

Your overall point would stand though, but it seems the Borg in the Star Trek galaxy have the best FTL systems known to any conventional power.

The Borg do seem to have assimilated an assortment of improvements on warp technology, but there propulsion apparently still uses the same basic concept.

Agreed. I'd point out nothing more than that when crusing at warp, they use very high factors, and with apparent ease.

When "cruising" at warp in "Best of Both Worlds", they were doing Warp 9.5 as I recall. While such a sustained speed is outstanding by Federation standards, it's insignificant compared to the speeds they can achieve with transwarp conduits. If they were capable of "transwarp" speeds when so far from their territory, they could easily have outdistanced the Enterprise in BoBW and subjugated the Earth before Riker and crew had a chance to do anything to stop them. Indeed, they could have blown right by the Federation fleet at Wolf 359 instead of fighting them, leaving them hours behind and arriving at an essentially undefended Earth much sooner.

It was my impression that that specific "Transwarp" system was merely a failed attempt to make a stardrive capable of jumping instanteously to any warp factor rather than having to work through the entire chain of warp 1,2,3, etc.

To my knowledge, the Federation transwarp effort from ST3 was an effort to develop the same technology used on Voth ships; it just didn't work.

Additonally, simply terming the drive system Transwarp does not necessarily imply Transwarp in any form the Borg or Voth have used it, or future Federation ships have experienced it. Don't forget, in the Pilot episode of TOS, they literately stated their drive system as "Hyperdrive", and obivously that term is rather subjective.

Since almost every alien word we hear in an episode of Star Trek is presumably filtered through a "universal translator", I see no reason to think that the term "transwarp" when used in reference to the Voth or Borg means anything different than it did in ST3.

You're just provided the evidence that a threat of assimilation can be delayed or prevented by threatening to destroy what it is the Borg are after, which is my point about Data.

No such threat was ever uttered.

Data did not need to make any such ultimatum in First Contact; he was confident that the Borg couldn't assimilate him, and the Borg made no effort to contradict him.

His confidence is irrelevent. The Borg were assimilating him, and with apparent ease(don't forget they did have limited resources on hand). They grafted organic components onto his body. Being a machine with organic components made him a cyborg, which is what the Borg are. They were assimilating him, and it was beyond his comprehension on how they were doing it.

There is no evidence to support your hypothesis. There is no indication that the Borg were doing anything other than what Data thought they were doing: attempting to bribe Data to assist them.

There's no evidence in my opinion that would imply the Borg were "stumped" by Data's positronic brain. The Borg method of assimilation just simply wouldn't be fast enough to take him over without him having the time to purge valuable data from his mind. Frankly, the Borg being aware of this possiblity isn't improbable in my opinion. My assertion is that Data was being physically assimilated quite clearly, only his individuality remained intact, and for reasons that I have stipulated which make alot of sense to me.

While it makes sense to you, it sounds more like rationalization to me. You're cooking up an excuse for their failure to assimilate Data because you don't like the implication.

I ask you this, at what point did the Borg have the opportunity to study Species 8472 genetic material?

The Borg knew at least enough about S8472 to decide they wanted to assimilate them for their genetic material.

Seven of Nine stated the Borg found Species 8472 to be a major threat, and their solution was to "destroy them first!". The Borg's priority of assimilating Species 8472 didn't seem that high, if existent at all. Seven of Nine stated in STVOY "Dark Frontier" the Borg destroy threats, they don't assimilate them unless targetted for such a purpose.

Are you forgetting major revelations of "Scorpion"? Seven revealed that the Borg invaded fluidic space in order to assimilate Species 8472 because their DNA would have "greatly increased the perfection" of the Borg collective. The Borg started the war with S8472 to obtain genetic material, not to "destroy a major threat". S8472 didn't become a major threat until their counter-attack threatened to destroy the entire Collective.

To have made the decision to invade fluidic space to assimilate S8472, the Borg must have obtained some information about S8472 biology that made them think it was worth acquiring.

Given the Doctor specifically stated and showed evidence that Borg nanoprobes attack blood cells, blood cells identifiable to the nanoprobes should be attacked in such a manner, unless prevented by some means(like a ultra effective immune system).

You realize that you're just supporting my claim that the Borg can't effectively assimilate non-humanoid organisms, don't you? Tholians apparently don't have blood cells, so they should be immune to assimilation. Data doesn't have blood cells, so he should be immune to assimilation. The Founders don't have blood cells (spilled Founder "blood" quickly reverts into undifferentiated goo), so they should be immune to assimilation. All of the major Trek races, particularly those known to have been assimilated, have a very "humanoid" circulatory system with blood cells.

They've got the best versions of all the basic technologies in the galaxy, but they don't really have the ability to handle anything outside that basic infrastructure.

Then frankly they would be completely unable to excerise their primary goal, which is "add" biological and technology distinctiveness to their Collective. If they are adding anything, it would have to be outside their technological and biological basis to have any value by that criteria.

And it's entirely possible that the entire Collective is in a state of self-delusion. It's ability to acquire new biological and technological abilities could easily be quite limited without them comprehending the limits.

Now, if they can assimilate a civilization that possesses a unique technology, then the technology can become part of the Borg "base", but that doesn't happen very often.

Apparently you submit it has happened, therefore I would think you've invalidated your own point.

A given technology (like slipstream propulsion) might not be capable of repelling a Borg invasion. In such a case, the Borg could presumably acquire a new technology by assimilating the civilization that invented it, including the various scientists and engineers that understand that technology and the underlying infrastructure. However, we might not even have an example of this kind of technological assimilation occurring, since you have basically admitted that slipstream technology seems to share the same technology base as warp drive.

PS: Sorry about the long delay in reponse Ted, I just finished moving in, and my cable just got hooked up. My future responses should be much more prompt now, with e-mail corrospondense being possible again.

Not a problem.

[Robert Walper]

You've shown one instance ("Descent") that establishes a benchmark for transwarp conduits, but you haven't, to my knowledge, established a lower limit for transwarp drive.

I'd had calculated a single Transwarp coil being able to propel the Delta Flyer over 200 lightyears within several seconds. The figure I got was around 630 million C.

As far as I know, there are two civilizations in the galaxy that have transwarp drive: the Borg and the Voth.

That we know of for certain I would argue.

Given that I prefaced my statement with "As far as I know...", why did you even bother to say this?

Because I'm an idiot who didn't read your post accurately. Sorry.

If Slipstream is essentially indistinguishable from transwarp, which seems to be an improved version of the common warp drive, why should we think slipstream is anything but another improvement on the basic warp drive.

According to Geordi in STTNG "Descent", Transwarp works on a different basis than warp. He said "In Transwarp, normal warp variables don't apply". And every indication I saw in STVOY "Hope and Fear" suggested, if not outright stated, that Quantum Slipstream was entirely different than warp drive.

Agreed. I'd point out nothing more than that when crusing at warp, they use very high factors, and with apparent ease.

When "cruising" at warp in "Best of Both Worlds", they were doing Warp 9.5 as I recall. While such a sustained speed is outstanding by Federation standards, it's insignificant compared to the speeds they can achieve with transwarp conduits.

Or Transwarp drives.

If they were capable of "transwarp" speeds when so far from their territory, they could easily have outdistanced the Enterprise in BoBW and subjugated the Earth before Riker and crew had a chance to do anything to stop them.

Why, were they in a rush? They could easily have been mapping uncharted space, which might not be possible during Transwarp speeds. In fact, the very nature of Transwarp being so much faster should prevent them from gathering as detailed information as they would at simple warp.

Indeed, they could have blown right by the Federation fleet at Wolf 359 instead of fighting them,

A fight in which the Federation fleet was hopelessly outmatched.

leaving them hours behind and arriving at an essentially undefended Earth much sooner.

Why are we assuming that planetary assimilation would be a achieveable goal within a few hours? How much resources must a single cube devote to assimilating an entire planet? A few hours of beginning assimilation of Earth could easily have taxed the cube to the point where fighting a fleet would be that much harder.

To my knowledge, the Federation transwarp effort from ST3 was an effort to develop the same technology used on Voth ships; it just didn't work.

Honestly, I've seen no evidence to suggest the Federation had any knowledge of FTL drives of that nature during that era. Merely stating a system to be "Transwarp" does not necessarily imply Transwarp drives/conduits as the Borg and Voth employ them. With nothing to go on except terminology, I would suggest that as a weak hypothesis. The pilot episode of TOS had them refer to their drive system as "Hyperdrive", but that's a far cry from any evidence that is would resemble Imperial hyperdrive in either speed or characteristics. Given the time between the ST3 era and TNG era, such terminology could easily have changed meaning.

Since almost every alien word we hear in an episode of Star Trek is presumably filtered through a "universal translator", I see no reason to think that the term "transwarp" when used in reference to the Voth or Borg means anything different than it did in ST3.

This would assume terminology was stagnant throughout the time that seperates those eras.

You're just provided the evidence that a threat of assimilation can be delayed or prevented by threatening to destroy what it is the Borg are after, which is my point about Data.

No such threat was ever uttered.

If the only acceptable evidence for this theory is Data spelling it out for the Borg(which know enough about him to alter him into a cyborg despite such alterations being beyond his own comprehension or knowledge of being even possible), then, no I don't have that evidence.

His confidence is irrelevent. The Borg were assimilating him, and with apparent ease(don't forget they did have limited resources on hand). They grafted organic components onto his body. Being a machine with organic components made him a cyborg, which is what the Borg are. They were assimilating him, and it was beyond his comprehension on how they were doing it.

There is no evidence to support your hypothesis. There is no indication that the Borg were doing anything other than what Data thought they were doing: attempting to bribe Data to assist them.

I disagree. They grafted organic material onto his body. That makes him a cyborg at that point. The Borg are cyborgs, thus they were making Data like themselves. This assimilation made him vulnerable and confused, therefore bringing the Borg closer to their goal, getting what they wanted from him. Assimilation does not have to imply joining the hive mentality, otherwise the Borg would be unable to assimilate technology(interestingly, Picard did apparently "hear" Data call out his rank before Picard decided to stay aboard the Enterprise and try to save him).

I'm not disputing the Borg were unable to forcibly remove information from his mind. That's a fact. I merely provided a theory as to why they couldn't do so. My only dispute is with the claim that Data is impervious to Borg assimilation when that is exactly what they were doing to him.

There's no evidence in my opinion that would imply the Borg were "stumped" by Data's positronic brain. The Borg method of assimilation just simply wouldn't be fast enough to take him over without him having the time to purge valuable data from his mind. Frankly, the Borg being aware of this possiblity isn't improbable in my opinion. My assertion is that Data was being physically assimilated quite clearly, only his individuality remained intact, and for reasons that I have stipulated which make alot of sense to me.

While it makes sense to you, it sounds more like rationalization to me. You're cooking up an excuse for their failure to assimilate Data because you don't like the implication.

They couldn't forcibly extract information from his mind. I don't dispute this. I merely propose the theory as to why they couldn't forcibly remove information from his brain(or any other sentient computer for that matter). But the Borg apparently had no problem at all at altering him into a cyborg(requiring detailed understanding of his physical makeup, not to mention knowing how to make his brain process such data), which is assimilating him.

Seven of Nine stated the Borg found Species 8472 to be a major threat, and their solution was to "destroy them first!". The Borg's priority of assimilating Species 8472 didn't seem that high, if existent at all. Seven of Nine stated in STVOY "Dark Frontier" the Borg destroy threats, they don't assimilate them unless targetted for such a purpose.

Are you forgetting major revelations of "Scorpion"? Seven revealed that the Borg invaded fluidic space in order to assimilate Species 8472 because their DNA would have "greatly increased the perfection" of the Borg collective.

Point conceded. I'd forgotten that.

The Borg started the war with S8472 to obtain genetic material, not to "destroy a major threat".

If they started the war to obtain genetic material, then they obviously did not have it, that was my point.

S8472 didn't become a major threat until their counter-attack threatened to destroy the entire Collective.

To have made the decision to invade fluidic space to assimilate S8472, the Borg must have obtained some information about S8472 biology that made them think it was worth acquiring.

I would then argue obtaining information from Species 8472 doesn't require a genetic sample. They need only to observe what their capabilities are, which are based upon organic technology(ie: genetics). If the Borg were to observe a ISD displaying it's firepower capability, they don't need a sample of the technology itself to realize that technology would be a vast improvement to their own. Doesn't mean they would ever have the chance to actually acquire a piece of that technology.

Given the Doctor specifically stated and showed evidence that Borg nanoprobes attack blood cells, blood cells identifiable to the nanoprobes should be attacked in such a manner, unless prevented by some means(like a ultra effective immune system).

You realize that you're just supporting my claim that the Borg can't effectively assimilate non-humanoid organisms, don't you? Tholians apparently don't have blood cells, so they should be immune to assimilation.

Blood cells are not a requirement for assimilation. They are merely a target I stated nanoprobes can recognize and assimilate.

Inorganic objects like technology has been assimilated by nanotechnology as repeatedly shown, like in STVOY "Scorpion", or STVOY "One", etc

Data doesn't have blood cells, so he should be immune to assimilation.

He's not. They made him a cyborg. Assimilation does not require blood cells. Assimilation by the Borg doesn't even require nanotechnology. Blood cells are merely one target I've stated nanoprobes recognize as a target. I did not mean to imply blood cells are the only objects which Borg nanoprobes can assimilate.

The Founders don't have blood cells (spilled Founder "blood" quickly reverts into undifferentiated goo), so they should be immune to assimilation.

Nanoprobes have been shown to assimilate organic and non-organic objects. Under which catagory would the Founders fall?

All of the major Trek races, particularly those known to have been assimilated, have a very "humanoid" circulatory system with blood cells.

I won't dispute that. However, blood cells are not required for Borg nanoprobes to assimilate something.

Then frankly they would be completely unable to excerise their primary goal, which is "add" biological and technology distinctiveness to their Collective. If they are adding anything, it would have to be outside their technological and biological basis to have any value by that criteria.

And it's entirely possible that the entire Collective is in a state of self-delusion. It's ability to acquire new biological and technological abilities could easily be quite limited without them comprehending the limits.

Assimilation of course has limits. I'm merely disputing that Data himself is immune to assimilation. He's just another example of the Borg's inability to assimilate something that can be destroyed faster than they can acquire it.

A given technology (like slipstream propulsion) might not be capable of repelling a Borg invasion. In such a case, the Borg could presumably acquire a new technology by assimilating the civilization that invented it, including the various scientists and engineers that understand that technology and the underlying infrastructure.

That would seem to be self evident. Seven of Nine has on more than one occasion stated the Borg assimilated a specific technology from a specific race.

I would argue, however, an entire civilization need not be assimilated to acquire a unique technology. Just a source which would provide them with all the underlying technology basis for that unique technology, until it corrosponds with their own technological basis. Potentially, even a single planet of even an advanced culture may possess all the required resources, knowledge and capability by which to create some(or even many) unique technologies.

However, we might not even have an example of this kind of technological assimilation occurring, since you have basically admitted that slipstream technology seems to share the same technology base as warp drive.

I said Slipstream shares virtually identical visual characteristics to Transwarp drive, not typical warp. And Transwarp has been described as functioning on a different basis than normal warp(ref: STTNG "Descent"). Starfleet apparently cannot get any type of Transwarp system built on their own.