Why doesn't Starfleet use Security Droids ??

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2003-12-02 12:27am

Darth Wong wrote:
Kuroneko wrote:Normally yes, but not with the way Starfleet handles computer control systems. A single virus or security break-in could then easily kill off the entire crew.
True, but then again, Starfleet would undoubtedly slave any combat droids into the main computer in the same manner, so the same problem applies.

Methink we have just come upon the answer to the lack of droids. Certainly Starfleet is capable of making non-autonomous droids remote-controlled by the ship computer, and yet they've not done so.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2003-12-02 12:32am

Kuroneko wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Kuroneko wrote:Normally yes, but not with the way Starfleet handles computer control systems. A single virus or security break-in could then easily kill off the entire crew.
True, but then again, Starfleet would undoubtedly slave any combat droids into the main computer in the same manner, so the same problem applies.
Methink we have just come upon the answer to the lack of droids. Certainly Starfleet is capable of making non-autonomous droids remote-controlled by the ship computer, and yet they've not done so.

honestly, it would blow the budget of a TV series to have something realistic moving around in the episodes, but, they haven't even come out with those in the novels, or movies,

imagine the borg assimilation party in ST:first contact,

they'd be ass raped

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2003-12-02 12:54am

Omega-13 wrote:honestly, it would blow the budget of a TV series to have something realistic moving around in the episodes, but, they haven't even come out with those in the novels, or movies,

imagine the borg assimilation party in ST:first contact,

they'd be ass raped

Well, yes, but I was assuming we were operating under suspension of disbelief in the (un)reality of the Trek universe.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-02 01:11am

Omega-13 wrote:honestly, it would blow the budget of a TV series to have something realistic moving around in the episodes, but, they haven't even come out with those in the novels, or movies,

It's no secret that TV budgets caused the invention of the transporter, but I don't see any Trekkies decrying transporters as a bogus plot device. If you can suspend disbelief for the transporter, you can suspend disbelief for this.

imagine the borg assimilation party in ST:first contact,

they'd be ass raped

Why? They'd simply stick to the crawlspaces, where your big lurching robot can't go. In fact, if Trek ever did incorporate these big security robots, that's exactly the sort of thing I could imagine the writers doing. And once they assimilate a few crewmen, they can just march them in front of themselves, and the security droids would have to decide (with the small brains you gave them) whether they should shoot at what appears to be a Federation crewman taken prisoner.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-12-02 01:39am

Darth Wong wrote:
RedImperator wrote:The main computer is capable of creating sentient holocharacters, and while they can't replicate Data's brain, how hard could it be to build simple robots with built in phasers and sensors run by AIs housed in the main computer?
The main computer only created one sentient holocharacter in TNG. The rest were just CGI actors.

What about the Doctor? He was sentient, and before he got his mobile emitter, his mind was contained inside the main computer. And unlike Moriarity, who could be written off as a fluke, the Federation was clearly capable of recreating his program. The biggest difficulty I could see with this solution is that more than a few such droids might consume too many system resources, but I think you could slim the program down by programming the droids to be good soldiers and not much more (the Doctor had a personality and the ability to develop a personality indistinguishable from a human--security droids would need neither, and in fact those could be a liability).

One more thought on the Doctor: in Living Witness, the Doctor's entire program was backed up onto a portable storage device about the size (IIRC) of a grapefruit. Naturally, this contradicts all the other times in Voyager where it was stated the Doctor's program was too complex to copy or be run from anything other than the main computer or his mobile emitter, but if it is in fact possible to store a sentient program on such a device, then the main computer could be bypassed entirely.

Could cause a problem when the Klingon ambassador comes aboard

Heh, yeah, it could, though I wonder why the Klingon ambassador would be coming on board while the ship is under attack by boarding parties. Though you would need some kind of built in safety on the droids to prevent them from going rogue if they lost contact with the main computer. Perhaps some sort of deal where if they lose contact with their controlling intelligence in the computer, they only operate for a set period of time before shutting down. Something like how the Trade Federation battle droids shut down once they lost contact with the control ship.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-12-02 01:44am

Well I for one think the feds could build security robots with sufficient AI to work within the ship, even with Data sized models

All you would need would be sufficient pre planning, with friend or foe recognition software (which we have today for aircraft) to control its actions. The rest is relatively basic programming, hand to hand combat, ranged combat, etc can all be easily enough programmed. The rest of its programmign would consist of likely scenarios they would encounter. For example, if you have hostile enemies behind a blast door, initiate demolition procedures to clear a path. If you are severely outnumbered, fall back to a better position etc.

They may not be able to think creatively, for instance they would be unable to cope with a situation automatically that their programmers did not anticipate and write software for. However, for their primary role they shouldn't need to. They merely need to follow orders of human security personell. Simple voice commands such as "designate all reman life forms as hostile targets" could be used for example etc.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2003-12-02 01:46am

Darth Wong wrote: Why? They'd simply stick to the crawlspaces, where your big lurching robot can't go. In fact, if Trek ever did incorporate these big security robots, that's exactly the sort of thing I could imagine the writers doing. And once they assimilate a few crewmen, they can just march them in front of themselves, and the security droids would have to decide (with the small brains you gave them) whether they should shoot at what appears to be a Federation crewman taken prisoner.

The big lurching robots could have smaller hover detachment robots that could access the crawl spaces, much like a iso-comp (those small robots that saved the captain and Geordie that data thought were 'alive')
can't have 1 tool does fixes every problem, need more than 1.

The liquid plasma that ate through flesh in ST:FC, they could use that as a weapon aswell in the crawl spaces,

big lurching droids are only part of the 'layered' defense system the federation could use.

Smaller droids controlled by a much much larger computer, completely independant of the main computer would also work well.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-02 02:01am

Omega-13 wrote:The big lurching robots could have smaller hover detachment robots that could access the crawl spaces, much like a iso-comp (those small robots that saved the captain and Geordie that data thought were 'alive')
can't have 1 tool does fixes every problem, need more than 1.

If they have enough resources to build all of this shit, perhaps they could simply put portable transport inhibitors on the ship, so people can't transport into it. We know these things can run off batteries and be man-portable from STI, so you'd think they could deploy them on a starship. But noooooo, that would entail the writers actually being consistent.

The liquid plasma that ate through flesh in ST:FC, they could use that as a weapon aswell in the crawl spaces,

Oh yes, I'm sure that stuff is much more effective than bullets or rayguns at range. And pumping deadly poisonous gas into crawlspaces which snake through the entire ship with its human crew is a lovely idea.

big lurching droids are only part of the 'layered' defense system the federation could use.

The most expensive part, yes. You already have lots of crewmen who apparently have nothing else to do. Perhaps if they just trained them to shoot straight, they wouldn't need to worry about this.

Smaller droids controlled by a much much larger computer, completely independant of the main computer would also work well.

Nothing in Star Trek is made independent of the main computer.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-02 02:03am

RedImperator wrote:What about the Doctor? He was sentient, and before he got his mobile emitter, his mind was contained inside the main computer. And unlike Moriarity, who could be written off as a fluke, the Federation was clearly capable of recreating his program.

Was he initially sentient, or did he develop sentience over time?

One more thought on the Doctor: in Living Witness, the Doctor's entire program was backed up onto a portable storage device about the size (IIRC) of a grapefruit. Naturally, this contradicts all the other times in Voyager where it was stated the Doctor's program was too complex to copy or be run from anything other than the main computer or his mobile emitter, but if it is in fact possible to store a sentient program on such a device, then the main computer could be bypassed entirely.

Not to defend a clearly incompetent writing staff, but a program can be stored on a small device without necessarily running at the time, so this isn't necessarily a contradiction.

Heh, yeah, it could, though I wonder why the Klingon ambassador would be coming on board while the ship is under attack by boarding parties. Though you would need some kind of built in safety on the droids to prevent them from going rogue if they lost contact with the main computer. Perhaps some sort of deal where if they lose contact with their controlling intelligence in the computer, they only operate for a set period of time before shutting down. Something like how the Trade Federation battle droids shut down once they lost contact with the control ship.

Of course, this would produce the central point-of-failure problem.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-12-02 04:02am

Darth Wong wrote:
RedImperator wrote:What about the Doctor? He was sentient, and before he got his mobile emitter, his mind was contained inside the main computer. And unlike Moriarity, who could be written off as a fluke, the Federation was clearly capable of recreating his program.
Was he initially sentient, or did he develop sentience over time?

I thought he was sentient from the beginning. He didn't have much of a personality at the beginning, but within a few episodes, he was complaining about being left on when crew members left sickbay and being bored for hours on end. Boredom seems to indicate sentience to me. At any rate, if he wasn't sentient when he was first activated he was within a few months at most, which would be an acceptable length of time to train a droid brain.

Not to defend a clearly incompetent writing staff, but a program can be stored on a small device without necessarily running at the time, so this isn't necessarily a contradiction.

The program was running. As a matter of fact, the backup device not only contained the doctor's program, but IIRC, a holoemitter as well. And the device wasn't on Voyager nor anywhere near her (the episode was set 700 years after Voyager passed through the alien of the week's solar system), so it couldn't have been communicating with the ship.

Of course, this would produce the central point-of-failure problem.

You can either have a central point of failure or you can risk your robots going rogue and staying rogue if they lose contact with the computer, unless the bots can carry their own AI on board. Most boarding actions in Trek don't seem to last more than a few minutes, so an hour seems like a safe window for the bots to stay active. I figure if your main computer is down and there are boarders coming in, the robots would only be trying to buy time for the crew to blow the antimatter containment anyway.

TurboPhaser · Post by **TurboPhaser** » 2003-12-02 05:21am

(or it will do something stupid like opening fire on an ambasador one day and cause a diplomatic incident).

Could cause a problem when the Klingon ambassador comes aboard

Yeah.

Picard: Welcome Ambassador.
Robot: BLAM!
Ambassador: GAK!
Picard: Oops.

I think the others are right, they wont/cant make a smart enough droid without freaking out about its rights, and if they make it too dumb, it'll just wont be able to distinguish between 'friend' and 'foe'

TurboPhaser · Post by **TurboPhaser** » 2003-12-02 05:22am

(or it will do something stupid like opening fire on an ambasador one day and cause a diplomatic incident).

Could cause a problem when the Klingon ambassador comes aboard

Yeah.

Picard: Welcome Ambassador.
Robot: BLAM!
Ambassador: GAK!
Picard: Oops.

I think the others are right, they wont/cant make a smart enough droid without freaking out about its rights, and if they make it too dumb, it'll just wont be able to distinguish between 'friend' and 'foe'

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2003-12-02 05:25am

I think the others are right, they wont/cant make a smart enough droid without freaking out about its rights, and if they make it too dumb, it'll just wont be able to distinguish between 'friend' and 'foe'

On the contrary, the Federation has shown itself to be quite capable of making high end AIs.

Remember the Doctor?

buzz_knox · Post by **buzz_knox** » 2003-12-02 10:49am

The real reason is simple: droids would look stupid in redshirts.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-02 11:09am

Thirdfain wrote:On the contrary, the Federation has shown itself to be quite capable of making high end AIs.

Remember the Doctor?

I think you're missing the point. The Federation will be concerned about the rights of any sufficiently intelligent AI.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-12-02 11:16am

Darth Wong wrote:
Thirdfain wrote:On the contrary, the Federation has shown itself to be quite capable of making high end AIs.

Remember the Doctor?
I think you're missing the point. The Federation will be concerned about the rights of any sufficiently intelligent AI.

You sure about that? They had no problem confining Moriaty to a box for the rest of his "lifetime".

Speaking of which, wouldn't that small box prove that the Federation was capable of producing a small enough "container" to house an intelligent AI for a droid?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-02 11:18am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:You sure about that? They had no problem confining Moriaty to a box for the rest of his "lifetime".

That's because they had no choice. He was threatening to destroy their ship and they couldn't give him what he wanted, which was an ambulatory real-life body.

Speaking of which, wouldn't that small box prove that the Federation was capable of producing a small enough "container" to house an intelligent AI for a droid?

It didn't have to be processing his AI in real-time. What difference does it make if his framerate is 2 fps in there?

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-12-02 11:27am

Good points.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-12-02 12:04pm

I think the problem is that Datas positronic brain has evolved alot since he was first activated years ago, so he might've been using his current brain pattern as a template instead of trying to come up with the basic template Soong started with.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2003-12-02 12:19pm

Why does everyone require a security AI to be like Data? It seems like overkill to build such a complicated device for the simple task of patrolling a ship or base. All it needs is a means of propulsion, some sensors designed to detect potential problems, a computer to analyze what it detects, and a communicator to call for help and transmit its findings. Such a device doesn't need to be humanoid in appearance to do its job. If you are afraid it will go berserk and attack people, don't arm it, don't put explosives in it, and don't program it to consider attacking anyone.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-12-02 12:53pm

Yeah.

Picard: Welcome Ambassador.
Robot: BLAM!
Ambassador: GAK!
Picard: Oops.

I think the others are right, they wont/cant make a smart enough droid without freaking out about its rights, and if they make it too dumb, it'll just wont be able to distinguish between 'friend' and 'foe'

Friend or foe recognition software does not require great intelligence. Nor do basic firing and hand to hand combat programs. I still say you can create a fully combat capable android without making it sentient and without having the ability to think creatively. Most militarys don't require much of infantry other than they use their training (programming) and follow orders which should be easy enough to instill in an android. Neither of which requires a sentient being to perform.

Could someone find a way to exploit it? Sure, but that will happen regardles of who or what you have fighting for you.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-12-02 01:32pm

Keep in mind that the original post speculated that the robots would replace human security officers, not suppliment them, which WOULD require fully sentient AIs, as there's no way to program a non-sentient computer to react to every possible situation it could encounter, especially on away missions. I think the Federation is capable of such machines (the bodies shouldn't be that difficult and Living Witness proves they can store and run a sentient program from a small enough device to fit in an android), but there are serious ethical issues involved in creating sentient machines whose entire purpose will be to fight and die for Starfleet without giving them any choice in the matter. It's no different morally from the Dominion cloning Jem'Hadar to be cannon fodder and kamakazie pilots.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-12-02 02:49pm

Well droids could definately be used to replace many of the security personell, but not the officers. There has to be some point of human command in the chain, but droid combat soldiers should be completely viable and useful.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2003-12-02 05:32pm

Imperator, you might consider lowering your expectations. What you want, Starfleet couldn't make. They can't reproduce Data. Even if they could, such androids would be sentient and likely to object to being used for the monotonous task of patrolling the corridors. They'd be right, because their skills are better suited to research and analysis. Unless you modify your goal to eliminate sentience, or Starfleet modifies its deinition of sentience to make Data-clones slaves (not a good idea at all), we have an impasse.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-12-03 12:37am

What makes data unique is that he has a positronic brain which allows for creative thoughts.

A security drones AI would not need to be anywhere near as sophisticated. The main attributes would be increased senses, strength, speed, etc which Data possesess.