Cloaked Phaser mines

[Death from the Sea]

And yet a field of stationary mines was quite effective at shutting off access to the Bajoran wormhole for six months. And where is your speculation about mobile ocean mines coming from?

Actually the mines around the Bajoran Wormhole had some sort of propulsion systems, they were programmed to swarm a target with 20 mines and detonate. So the idea is useful and has been shown in Trek canon.

[Kitsune]

And yet a field of stationary mines was quite effective at shutting off access to the Bajoran wormhole for six months. And where is your speculation about mobile ocean mines coming from?

Actually the mines around the Bajoran Wormhole had some sort of propulsion systems, they were programmed to swarm a target with 20 mines and detonate. So the idea is useful and has been shown in Trek canon.

Thanks makes snese but I did not remember, thanks

[Praxis]

How would they fire, when they're cloaked?

[Kitsune]

How would they fire, when they're cloaked?

Either they will uncloak momentarily to fire or if the Klingon cloak from "Undiscovered Country" can be copied, the system can work that way.

[Patrick Degan]

How would they fire, when they're cloaked?

Either they will uncloak momentarily to fire or if the Klingon cloak from "Undiscovered Country" can be copied, the system can work that way.

That cloaking system is lost. The only prototype was on Gen. Chang's ship, and it is quite evident that the Klingons never attempted to duplicate it afterward.

[Kitsune]

That cloaking system is lost. The only prototype was on Gen. Chang's ship, and it is quite evident that the Klingons never attempted to duplicate it afterward.

We know the technology is possible, therefore it is possible to duplicate. How long that would take is unknown but no reason to discount it.

[Ghost Rider]

That cloaking system is lost. The only prototype was on Gen. Chang's ship, and it is quite evident that the Klingons never attempted to duplicate it afterward.

We know the technology is possible, therefore it is possible to duplicate. How long that would take is unknown but no reason to discount it.

And that's why in Trek...neither the Romulans nor the Klingons(who apparently had 80 years, and were the ones to invent the thing) ever duplicated them.

Much like the Federation and the Genesis Torpedo.

[Kitsune]

And that's why in Trek...neither the Romulans nor the Klingons(who apparently had 80 years, and were the ones to invent the thing) ever duplicated them.
Much like the Federation and the Genesis Torpedo.

Looking at the Klingons, I would have to ask a question:
A group of Klingon Scientists and / or Engineers had to design the thing. Birds of Prey have very limited crews. They would most likely not be onboard the ship since we assume hundres of thousands of people to design this system.

As well, it appears as if the Federation understand at least basic technology for cloaking device, how do we know how advanced they are.

[Patrick Degan]

And that's why in Trek...neither the Romulans nor the Klingons(who apparently had 80 years, and were the ones to invent the thing) ever duplicated them.
Much like the Federation and the Genesis Torpedo.

Looking at the Klingons, I would have to ask a question:
A group of Klingon Scientists and / or Engineers had to design the thing. Birds of Prey have very limited crews. They would most likely not be onboard the ship since we assume hundres of thousands of people to design this system.

Then why did the Klingons never duplicate the system at any time in the intervening 85 years? Particularly after it proved not to confer that much of a tactical advantage (i.e. it did not protect Chang and his ship from being destroyed by the Enterprise).

As well, it appears as if the Federation understand at least basic technology for cloaking device, how do we know how advanced they are.

Appeal to Ignorance fallacy. The canon evidence of the films and television series tells us the state of Federation scientific and engineering capability. Trying to argue anything outside the actual evidence is hearsay at best.

[Kamakazie Sith]

That cloaking system is lost. The only prototype was on Gen. Chang's ship, and it is quite evident that the Klingons never attempted to duplicate it afterward.

We know the technology is possible, therefore it is possible to duplicate. How long that would take is unknown but no reason to discount it.

And that's why in Trek...neither the Romulans nor the Klingons(who apparently had 80 years, and were the ones to invent the thing) ever duplicated them.

Much like the Federation and the Genesis Torpedo.

Unless because Kirk countered it so fast it wouldn't be worth the overhaul of the existing cloaking system.

As for the Genesis Torpedo it was not suppose to be a weapon!! Why would the Federation want to develop it? There are other more conceivable possibilities besides "it's lost"

[Kitsune]

Unless because Kirk countered it so fast it wouldn't be worth the overhaul of the existing cloaking system.

You could be considering this properly, tactially you cannot shield while firing and you are limited to torpedoes (I assume due to power requirements) and the Cloaking device is used more on a strategic scale.

[Patrick Degan]

Unless because Kirk countered it so fast it wouldn't be worth the overhaul of the existing cloaking system.

You could be considering this properly, tactially you cannot shield while firing and you are limited to torpedoes (I assume due to power requirements) and the Cloaking device is used more on a strategic scale.

A stealth system is tactical by definition. It is sufficent only to confer advantage on a battlefield, but it is beyond the scope of its utility to be able to amount to any sort of decisive advantage in war —particularly if said advantage lasts only as long as the development time of the next countermeasure.

[Chris OFarrell]

How would they fire, when they're cloaked?

Either they will uncloak momentarily to fire or if the Klingon cloak from "Undiscovered Country" can be copied, the system can work that way.

That cloaking system is lost. The only prototype was on Gen. Chang's ship, and it is quite evident that the Klingons never attempted to duplicate it afterward.

Funny how the Scimitar had the same technology....

[El Moose Monstero]

Either they will uncloak momentarily to fire or if the Klingon cloak from "Undiscovered Country" can be copied, the system can work that way.

That cloaking system is lost. The only prototype was on Gen. Chang's ship, and it is quite evident that the Klingons never attempted to duplicate it afterward.

Funny how the Scimitar had the same technology....

It's doubtful that it was the exact same technology, because when the Bird of Prey fired, we saw a brief flash of the hull as the torpedo escaped the cloaking device effect, we saw no such effect on the scimitar. Maybe something working on similar principles, but definately not the same tech.

[Patrick Degan]

Either they will uncloak momentarily to fire or if the Klingon cloak from "Undiscovered Country" can be copied, the system can work that way.

That cloaking system is lost. The only prototype was on Gen. Chang's ship, and it is quite evident that the Klingons never attempted to duplicate it afterward.

Funny how the Scimitar had the same technology....

Funny how it took 85 years for anybody else to rediscover the working principle of Chang's cloak —and how in the end it provided no more decisive an advantage than the earlier model.

[Chris OFarrell]

Funny how the Scimitar had the same technology....

Funny how it took 85 years for anybody else to rediscover the working principle of Chang's cloak —and how in the end it provided no more decisive an advantage than the earlier model.

Funny how I was never disputing the time or how useful it was, simply proving your assertion that it was lost tech was incorrect

[Chris OFarrell]

That cloaking system is lost. The only prototype was on Gen. Chang's ship, and it is quite evident that the Klingons never attempted to duplicate it afterward.

Funny how the Scimitar had the same technology....

It's doubtful that it was the exact same technology, because when the Bird of Prey fired, we saw a brief flash of the hull as the torpedo escaped the cloaking device effect, we saw no such effect on the scimitar. Maybe something working on similar principles, but definately not the same tech.

Eh? We saw the exact same thing in ST10, whenever the Scimitar fired the ship breifly appeared partialy.

[Patrick Degan]

Funny how the Scimitar had the same technology....

Funny how it took 85 years for anybody else to rediscover the working principle of Chang's cloak —and how in the end it provided no more decisive an advantage than the earlier model.

Funny how I was never disputing the time or how useful it was, simply proving your assertion that it was lost tech was incorrect

The fact that somebody else managed to stumble onto the working principle of Chang's cloak after nearly a century does not "prove" that it wasn't a lost technology. The Klingons were unable to duplicate the prototype which was destroyed along with the ship it was mounted on at Khitomer, and given its tactical failure had no incentive to even attempt to do so. The Romulans didn't produce such a cloaking system in the intervening 85 years, and if Shinzon left no data on his cloak on Remus and the one working example of the system was lost along with the Scimitar, it is again a lost technology.

[Death from the Sea]

Funny how it took 85 years for anybody else to rediscover the working principle of Chang's cloak —and how in the end it provided no more decisive an advantage than the earlier model.

But didn't it though? After all the Schimitar had shields raised while cloaked something that Changs BoP did not have.

[Kitsune]

A stealth system is tactical by definition. It is sufficent only to confer advantage on a battlefield, but it is beyond the scope of its utility to be able to amount to any sort of decisive advantage in war —particularly if said advantage lasts only as long as the development time of the next countermeasure.

I mistated what I meant, what I mean is that the traditional cloak is really for the before combat stage in star trek. Once you are in the furball, the cloak does not have the same effectiveness.

I also must state that I don't know what the cost in resources is between a normal cloak and one which keeps the ship cloaked. The simple "cost' might make it prohibitive.

[Kitsune]

I was also thinking that to save budgets they could use phaser mounts from old decommissioned ships like Miranda and Constitution class.

[Patrick Degan]

I also must state that I don't know what the cost in resources is between a normal cloak and one which keeps the ship cloaked. The simple "cost' might make it prohibitive.

First, there would be the expense of the cloaking system itself and the fuel required to power it. Next would be the fuel supplies required for the phasers and the systems to preheat the emitters prior to firing. To top it off, you also would require a control computer and remote targeting sensors to make it an effective combat weapon. Whereas a simple mine requires only a basic proximity sensor, a warhead, and maybe manoeuvring thrusters and a fuel cell sufficent for those.

[Kitsune]

First, there would be the expense of the cloaking system itself and the fuel required to power it. Next would be the fuel supplies required for the phasers and the systems to preheat the emitters prior to firing. To top it off, you also would require a control computer and remote targeting sensors to make it an effective combat weapon. Whereas a simple mine requires only a basic proximity sensor, a warhead, and maybe manoeuvring thrusters and a fuel cell sufficent for those.

I don't recall any episodes where they preheat a phaser. I know that the Defiant had to replace a component of their phasers but also know that the Enterprise in "Wrath of Khan" was able to fire phasers from strictly batteries (which might mean capacitors instead) No matter, even if I include a shield, the cost is still a fraction of a starship.

My assumption as far as power is a fusion reactor and/or capacitors. Of course you need control computers but I don't know what the concern is. You need a computer for a explosive mine as well. As well, a thruster may not necessarily be simple.

A mix is likely the best idea, that way the enemy does not have a simple one attacker situation.

[Darth Wong]

Funny how the Scimitar had the same technology....

You're assuming it had the same technology rather than something new. How do you know the earlier cloak was not rendered useless by improved sensors, hence its disuse? As with offense and defense, detection and stealth are a two-player game.

[Sea Skimmer]

I don't recall any episodes where they preheat a phaser. I know that the Defiant had to replace a component of their phasers but also know that the Enterprise in "Wrath of Khan" was able to fire phasers from strictly batteries (which might mean capacitors instead) No matter, even if I include a shield, the cost is still a fraction of a starship.

You also have a tiny fraction of the capability. The mine is never going to accomplish anything since it will be blown away after one or two weak shots.