Uber Enterprise vs Borg Cube

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

How would the Galaxy upgrade class from "All Good Things" do vs a Borg cube?

[Patrick Degan]

The heavy fixed-axis phaser cannon may have been designed especially as an anti-Borg weapon, and appears to be based more around a brute-force concept rather than frequency/phase modulation trickery. If so, and if it can deliver enough sheer, raw firepower to blast through Borg shields, the AGT Enterprise may be quite effective against cubeships.

[Sarevok]

The heavy fixed-axis phaser cannon may have been designed especially as an anti-Borg weapon, and appears to be based more around a brute-force concept rather than frequency/phase modulation trickery. If so, and if it can deliver enough sheer, raw firepower to blast through Borg shields, the AGT Enterprise may be quite effective against cubeships.

A single upgraded GCS may not be powerful enough to take down a Cube. While their axial phaser cannons have been shown to destroy Klingon attack cruisers with a single shot Borg Cubes are far more tougher and better shielded than Klingon ships. A small taskforce of upgraded GCSs would be needed to deal with a Cube.

[Patrick Degan]

The heavy fixed-axis phaser cannon may have been designed especially as an anti-Borg weapon, and appears to be based more around a brute-force concept rather than frequency/phase modulation trickery. If so, and if it can deliver enough sheer, raw firepower to blast through Borg shields, the AGT Enterprise may be quite effective against cubeships.

A single upgraded GCS may not be powerful enough to take down a Cube. While their axial phaser cannons have been shown to destroy Klingon attack cruisers with a single shot Borg Cubes are far more tougher and better shielded than Klingon ships. A small taskforce of upgraded GCSs would be needed to deal with a Cube.

Not necessarily. For all their power, Borg cubeships have been shown to deploy shields which are every bit as frequency-dependent as the galaxy's other warships, and the structural strength of the ship in general is crap. Add enough raw power to the equation, and it simply will not matter what frequency the shields are set for.

[Crazedwraith]

The heavy fixed-axis phaser cannon may have been designed especially as an anti-Borg weapon, and appears to be based more around a brute-force concept rather than frequency/phase modulation trickery. If so, and if it can deliver enough sheer, raw firepower to blast through Borg shields, the AGT Enterprise may be quite effective against cubeships.

Baseless Asumption, We do not know enough about that weapon to say either way. How ever i think the AGTEnterprise May pack enough punch to take out a cube, at least a wussifed VGR cube. It proberly couldn't take on an orginal strength "Q Who" cube.

[Uraniun235]

Oh, jesus, can't we indulge in a little speculation in the ST forum?

[Death from the Sea]

I say yes, it can take out a cube in the TNG run, but not in the future verse where we see it. Assuming the Borg have increased in power along with the Federation. The main reason I say it beats every cube we see from 'Q Who' to First Contact and Voyager is because it is future tech much like transphasic torpedoes. It is possible that it can kill future borg cubes too though.

[RedImperator]

I say yes, it can take out a cube in the TNG run, but not in the future verse where we see it. Assuming the Borg have increased in power along with the Federation. The main reason I say it beats every cube we see from 'Q Who' to First Contact and Voyager is because it is future tech much like transphasic torpedoes. It is possible that it can kill future borg cubes too though.

There's no evidence at all that the Borg are advancing technologically, and considerable evidence that they've stagnated. They've shown no creative ability whatsoever (the entire collective couldn't even adapt their nanoprobes to work against S8472 in months of fighting, a feat Holodoc pulled off in a matter of days by himself). There seemed to be no improvement in their capabilities between Q Who? and Endgame other than time-travel (which, in Trekverse, can be accomplished by anyone with a warp drive), and the nanoprobes, which Seven of Nine stated had been in use for centuries (why they weren't used in TNG is a matter of speculation--perhaps there are different types of Borg, some of which use nanoprobes and some of which don't, which would also explain the change in appearance between the TNG Borg and the First Contact Borg).

I would say the AGT Galaxy would bitch slap a cube that hadn't adapted in one shot. An adapted cube might be able to absorb or deflect some of the energy, but will still take serious damage. This is all speculation without calculations, of course.

[Robert Walper]

How would the Galaxy upgrade class from "All Good Things" do vs a Borg cube?

The Borg cube would undoubtably mop the floor with the upgraded GCS. Despite being upgraded, it's firepower would have to be in excess of the fleets deployed against single cubes in previous battles, like STTNG "Best of Both Worlds"(ie: 40 starships) and ST:"First Contact"(ie: likely a few hundred).

Considering Species 8472 warships, with firepower at planetary destructive levels, need to fire mutliple shots to take out cubes, the upgraded GCS would undoubtably be vastly inadaquate to take out a cube. Their only chance would be to bypass Borg shielding by changing their weapon settings to specifics the Borg have not yet adapted to. Given it would be a one on one conflict, it's unlikely the GCS would be very effective against Borg adaptation.

I say the upgraded GCS would be slaughtered nearly as quickly as the E-D was in STTNG "Best of Both Worlds". Possibly faster since the Borg didn't go out of their way to destroy the E-D as they would likely do so against the upgraded GCS.

[Alyeska]

If the DS9 TM is to be acknowledged on the issue of the Defiants design, this will shed some light on the issue. The Defiant PPCs were specificaly designed as multi frequency weapons with each layer being a different frequency. If you cut an onion in half it would look much like a PPC cut in half. Multiple layers. This was done so that the Borg shields could only stop a small part of the PPC while the rest continues to the target. This explains why beam phasers typicaly did very little damage to the Borg ship while PPCs were causing direct hull damage.

If the Phaser Cannon from AGT is anything like this, that does not bode well for the Borg ship. This means the Galaxy-X can systematicly carve up the Cube. There is something else to factor here. Traditionaly the Borg do not fair well in their first encounter against new technology. Just look at "Q Who" for a perfect example. If the Galaxy-X can fire quickly enough, that Borg ship is in trouble.

Now, some other things to think about. The Phaser Cannon while powerful was not capable of penetrating straight through the Negh'Var all the time. Several shots were stopped. Borg ships are MUCH bigger. This means the Phaser Cannon will leave nice holes, but nothing going too deep. The Cube can sustain several of these shots and we know it can take a serious beating from some powerful ships. We know the second Borg ship went up against several Akiras and Nebula class ships as well as at least one Defiant. In all Likelyhood the Cube would recieve moderate damage before it decided to seriously concetrate firepower to disable the Galaxy-X. They might even decide to assimilate the ship for examination of the new technology.

[Durandal]

The Borg cube would undoubtably mop the floor with the upgraded GCS. Despite being upgraded, it's firepower would have to be in excess of the fleets deployed against single cubes in previous battles, like STTNG "Best of Both Worlds"(ie: 40 starships) and ST:"First Contact"(ie: likely a few hundred).

The Borg Cube was getting its ass kicked. Data stated that it had sustained heavy damage to its outer hull, and was having fluctuations in its power grid. We saw no signs of the Borg adapting to the fleet's attacks, nor did we see any shields whatsoever.

Considering that the über-prise's phaser cannon could probably just drill into the Borg Sweet Spot (which Picard neglected to mention to anyone before he arrived), I'd say that this is actually a pretty easy victory. Borg outer hulls are a collection of girders and loosely-connected metal plates, and we saw the phaser cannon plow through a Klingon cruiser like its shields weren't even there.

Considering Species 8472 warships, with firepower at planetary destructive levels, need to fire mutliple shots to take out cubes, the upgraded GCS would undoubtably be vastly inadaquate to take out a cube. Their only chance would be to bypass Borg shielding by changing their weapon settings to specifics the Borg have not yet adapted to. Given it would be a one on one conflict, it's unlikely the GCS would be very effective against Borg adaptation.

Slothful assertion without evidence. The directly observed effects of the S-8472 planet-killing beam made it clear that it did not carry the requisite energy to cause the explosion. We saw ejecta being kicked up at a few hundred meters per second max. In fact, as I recall, it took the ejecta a few seconds to cover Voyager's length. Voyager is about 150 m long, putting a more honest estimate for the ejecta's velocity under 100 m/s. The planet's gravitational binding energy was easily a few orders of magnitude lower than Earth's, and there's some question as to how it can even exist.

That is the direct effect of the beam, and the explosion occurred almost 10 seconds after the ships had stopped firing. The energy obviously did not come from that beam, so it's fallacious to assume that each individual component carries an equal fraction of the total destructive energy required.

[Alyeska]

The Borg Cube was getting its ass kicked. Data stated that it had sustained heavy damage to its outer hull, and was having fluctuations in its power grid. We saw no signs of the Borg adapting to the fleet's attacks, nor did we see any shields whatsoever.

Considering that the über-prise's phaser cannon could probably just drill into the Borg Sweet Spot (which Picard neglected to mention to anyone before he arrived), I'd say that this is actually a pretty easy victory. Borg outer hulls are a collection of girders and loosely-connected metal plates, and we saw the phaser cannon plow through a Klingon cruiser like its shields weren't even there.

The Borg ship was taking damage but note that most of the damage points were repaired almost seconds after occuring. Also read my post. While the Phaser Cannon is powerful, it is not necessarily powerful enough to utterly destroy the Borg Cube. I would not go so far as to say the Galaxy-X is equal to 40+ TNG and DS9 era ships.

[Durandal]

The Borg ship was taking damage but note that most of the damage points were repaired almost seconds after occuring.

I take it you have some evidence of this claim? How could the Borg hull be "heavily damaged" if most of the damage was repaired within a few seconds?

Also read my post. While the Phaser Cannon is powerful, it is not necessarily powerful enough to utterly destroy the Borg Cube. I would not go so far as to say the Galaxy-X is equal to 40+ TNG and DS9 era ships.

No, but it would be pretty easy to poke some holes using the phaser cannon and then send a few photon torpedoes in right after it.

[Alyeska]

I take it you have some evidence of this claim? How could the Borg hull be "heavily damaged" if most of the damage was repaired within a few seconds?

There was a rather large gapping hole that was intiatily visible on the Cube at the start of the battle yet it disapeared when the Enterprise showed up. And we know it was on the same side because the Defiant had lost most control at that point. We also saw several points where torpedoes impacted leaving damage yet when we see the cube next there is no damage. I suspect that the constant attack was causing damage because the Borg shields had worn down, but the ship was constantly repairing said damage.

No, but it would be pretty easy to poke some holes using the phaser cannon and then send a few photon torpedoes in right after it.

The Phaser Cannon wasn't even capable of punching through the thinest sections of a Negh'Var variant all of the time. What makes you think it could punch right through a 2-3km cube?

[Shadow]

2-3km cube

The cube is approx. 3036 meters per side.

[Alyeska]

2-3km cube

The cube is approx. 3036 meters per side.

While that may be the standard answer, the FC cube did not appear to be that large when it was compared to the other Starfleet ships around it.

[Durandal]

There was a rather large gapping hole that was intiatily visible on the Cube at the start of the battle yet it disapeared when the Enterprise showed up. And we know it was on the same side because the Defiant had lost most control at that point. We also saw several points where torpedoes impacted leaving damage yet when we see the cube next there is no damage. I suspect that the constant attack was causing damage because the Borg shields had worn down, but the ship was constantly repairing said damage.

I don't have FC handy (I still haven't gotten around to buying the DVD, even though it's one of my favorite Trek movies); do you have screenshots?

The Phaser Cannon wasn't even capable of punching through the thinest sections of a Negh'Var variant all of the time. What makes you think it could punch right through a 2-3km cube?

When did I say it was capable of punching through the Cube? I said that it could do significant damage, and that it could hit the Borg Cube's G-Spot with enough punch to make the ship explode.

[Howedar]

Alyeska, do we know that the cube did not rotate?

[Durandal]

Alyeska, do we know that the cube did not rotate?

He sent me a screenshot of the damage, but only one. There's nothing to compare it to. Here's the shot he sent me.