Cardassian War

[Jason von Evil]

Exactly how much is known about the war between the Federation and Cardassians? We do know there was some ground combat, according to Janeway. (she said in an episode of VOY that she saved the life of a Cardie soldier during the war)

I'm wondering because I might change the Feddie-Romulan war in my trek fic to the Feddie-Cardie war and could use the info.

[Dark Primus]

This is what I have heard.

For the Cardassians it was a war, for the Feds it was an incursion.
Chief O'brian served in the war, killed one Cardassian soldier against his will, because he had no choice. Either kill or be killed. He was also friend with captain Ben Maxwell, who lost his family in the war.

The Cardassians lost it, but few years later they begun arming up for war to reclaim lost territories but it went downhill from there.

[Master of Ossus]

Actually, who won the war is open to interpretation. Under the treaty, the UFP clearly lost some territory and lost effective control over other parts of their holdings (hence the Maquis' existence). While the UFP was doubtlessly winning individual battles due to their superior technology and starships, it's also clear that the Cardassians were able to win at least temporary victories and were inflicting heavy casualties on the UFP settlers. Note that, even during TNG, the Cardassians were considered a significant threat to the UFP, and a resurgence of hostilities would have caused them considerable problems.

[Jason von Evil]

Yeah but the Feds are pussies, they always give up territory. Hell, they were probably the only victors in the D War to give some up. Granted it was never stated, but keep the pussiness in mind. Damn commie/hippies/wimps. If Jellico was in control, he'd whip the Federation into a force that would make even their toughest ally or enemy cream themselves.

[Sea Skimmer]

The war probably stalemated with the Cardassian's lacking the resources to win, while the Federation didn't want to commit too many of its own or gear up production for the conflict. So they ended up ceding the disputed areas as not worth fighting for.

[Jason von Evil]

Do we know when the war started?

[Chris OFarrell]

Yeah but the Feds are pussies, they always give up territory.

We have ONE example of this and it was a mutual exchange that was said not to be perfect, but there is no indication that the UFP gave up less then the Cardasians.

Hell, they were probably the only victors in the D War to give some up. Granted it was never stated, but keep the pussiness in mind.

In short your ranting without proof on a false assumption. Right. Concession Accepted.

[Jason von Evil]

Yeah but the Feds are pussies, they always give up territory.

We have ONE example of this and it was a mutual exchange that was said not to be perfect, but there is no indication that the UFP gave up less then the Cardasians.

Hell, they were probably the only victors in the D War to give some up. Granted it was never stated, but keep the pussiness in mind.

In short your ranting without proof on a false assumption. Right. Concession Accepted.

I'm sorry, but do I have a large neon sign hanging over my head with the words "I'm debating!"? Thought not.

And for the record, I'm not the first or only one to criticize the Federation and Starfleet. Perhaps if you payed attention to previous threads, you'd see that.

[Sarevok]

Actually, who won the war is open to interpretation. Under the treaty, the UFP clearly lost some territory and lost effective control over other parts of their holdings (hence the Maquis' existence). While the UFP was doubtlessly winning individual battles due to their superior technology and starships, it's also clear that the Cardassians were able to win at least temporary victories and were inflicting heavy casualties on the UFP settlers. Note that, even during TNG, the Cardassians were considered a significant threat to the UFP, and a resurgence of hostilities would have caused them considerable problems.

Cardassian warships are not that far behind the UFP in terms of technology. Their Galor and Keldon class vessels are nearly 400 meters long. That is easily as big as a medium sized Federation starship. In addition the Cardassian ships have phasers, a technology not even the Klingons or the Romulans use. That would make them a considerable threat to any Federation ships weaker than an Ambassador.

[Dark Primus]

Cardassian warships are not that far behind the UFP in terms of technology.

My guess is 20-25 years behind in weapons technology. In civilian areas probably far more.

Their Galor and Keldon class vessels are nearly 400 meters long. That is easily as big as a medium sized Federation starship.

Yes in size, but in firepower they do lack. They are perhaps just as equal powerful as a 400 meters long Fed science vessel then a Fed warship.
Take the Akira class for example, I bet my money on that ship then a Galor at any time.
It might put them up against Excelsior or Ambassador as their counterpart, but against a Nebula class, they were outgunned and outmatched and they have been in service before the GCS came in.

In addition the Cardassian ships have phasers, a technology not even the Klingons or the Romulans use.

Why would they use it? Romulan disruptors have been stated to be slighty more powerful then Federation phasers, but then again that was from the TNG era, in Dominion War era who knows where the weapons power output are.
A lot of advancements have been made through the few years prior to the Dominion.

[Posbi]

The Cardassians may have been technologically inferior, but they had several points in favor for them that the Federation starships in that region lacked.

For the Cardassians, it was a war close to their own core systems, which means they never should have had a significant problem with logistics and probably had a safe and constant supply of supplies, ammonutions, soldiers and yard-fresh warships.

Simply due to that fact, they could, if having broken the thin defenses of the Federation colony planets, bring far more troops, and logically also far more heavily equipped troops to bear than the Federation could.

While the Federation clearly had the technological egde, I think it is somewhat safe to assume that the Cardassians both had the strategical as well as tactical one, and knowing that the Cardiassian armed forces structure is that of a military and not of a hybrid-organisation like Starfleet, I also do think that while being individually inferior, their ships acting in coordination inflicted heavy casualties on the local Starfleet forces, even if only for their better tactical education.

I think it is on Ex Astris Scentia where it is stated that the Cardassians had an annual production rate of 80 Galor class vessels. Compared to the theoretical output of the Federation that sounds not that much, however they could bring them to bear in a single one-front war, coordinated centrally from a military staff, whereas we know little to nothing about the actual coordination of Starfleet forces who logically -as a result of the much bigger volume of Federation space- where thinly spread. The war may have ended in a draw, but all facts combined I find it hard not to call the Cardassians the victors.

[Master of Ossus]

Cardassian warships are not that far behind the UFP in terms of technology.

Given that a Nebula class starship can destroy a Cardassian warship in a single shot, I kind of doubt that the Cardassian ships are that powerful in comparison. Moreover, the Cardassians in "The Wounded" seemed pretty impressed and surprised by all of the UFP technologies on the E-D. Granted, the E-D is the flagship of the Federation, but still....

Their Galor and Keldon class vessels are nearly 400 meters long. That is easily as big as a medium sized Federation starship.

And the Galor obviously delivers substantially lower performance than similarly-sized UFP starships, (ref. "The Wounded"), though the Keldon class was substantially more advanced.

In addition the Cardassian ships have phasers, a technology not even the Klingons or the Romulans use. That would make them a considerable threat to any Federation ships weaker than an Ambassador.

This is the old technology level argument. What matters is performance, and the Galor's performance doesn't stack up to the UFP's starships. While large Cardassian ships may be able to threaten small, outdated UFP starships, against newer UFP models that would actually be fighting the conflict they shouldn't stand much of a chance.

[Alyeska]

FYI, the Cardassian War was fought before the Nebula and Galaxy class ships were in service. The biggest ship the Federation had was the Ambassador class. It could probably defeat a Keldon or Galor 1-1, but thats about it.

The War was fought two different ways. Given the militaristic nature of the Cardassians it seems likely that they instigated the war in the first place through some minor event. The Federation vastly outnumbered and outgunned the Cardassians but lacked the political willpower to do anything about it. While the Cardassians were fighting an agressive war the Federation did nothing more then defend its own territory. This cost the Cardassians but it meant they could make some gains. This explains why the Cardassians were able to win against an enemy who could have flattened them. The Federation handicapped its captains and lacked the political willpower to do anything else. This gave the initiative to the Cardassians and they were able to neutralize several of the Federations advantages.

[Dark Primus]

FYI, the Cardassian War was fought before the Nebula and Galaxy class ships were in service. The biggest ship the Federation had was the Ambassador class. It could probably defeat a Keldon or Galor 1-1, but thats about it.

The War was fought two different ways. Given the militaristic nature of the Cardassians it seems likely that they instigated the war in the first place through some minor event. The Federation vastly outnumbered and outgunned the Cardassians but lacked the political willpower to do anything about it. While the Cardassians were fighting an agressive war the Federation did nothing more then defend its own territory. This cost the Cardassians but it meant they could make some gains. This explains why the Cardassians were able to win against an enemy who could have flattened them. The Federation handicapped its captains and lacked the political willpower to do anything else. This gave the initiative to the Cardassians and they were able to neutralize several of the Federations advantages.

I can agree with that. The Starfleet admiral said to Picard the Federation council was tired of the conflict, and didn't want to drag it out.

[Rogue 9]

Yeah but the Feds are pussies, they always give up territory.

We have ONE example of this and it was a mutual exchange that was said not to be perfect, but there is no indication that the UFP gave up less then the Cardasians.

Hell, they were probably the only victors in the D War to give some up. Granted it was never stated, but keep the pussiness in mind.

In short your ranting without proof on a false assumption. Right. Concession Accepted.

I'm sorry, but do I have a large neon sign hanging over my head with the words "I'm debating!"? Thought not.

And for the record, I'm not the first or only one to criticize the Federation and Starfleet. Perhaps if you payed attention to previous threads, you'd see that.

Heck, I'll criticize the Federation and Starfleet Command. Come on, win or lose they always give stuff up in the end-of-war treaty. The Cardassian War? They gave up a fairly substantial bit of territory. The Romulans? Gave up the right to develop cloaking technology (?!?!?!?!?). Why? I mean really, why?

[Stormbringer]

Heck, I'll criticize the Federation and Starfleet Command. Come on, win or lose they always give stuff up in the end-of-war treaty. The Cardassian War? They gave up a fairly substantial bit of territory. The Romulans? Gave up the right to develop cloaking technology (?!?!?!?!?). Why? I mean really, why?

Kirk used up their collective supply of cajones.

[Rogue 9]

Must be it. I dont' see any other reasonable explanation.

[TheDarkling]

The hostilities started in 2355 at latest and ended with the signing of a treaty (seemingly a cease fire as opposed to fully fleshed out and final peace treaty) in 2367.

Casualties were in the millions and the war did a large amount of damage to the Cardassian economy (possibility resulting in their inability to hold Bajor) while it was largely ignored within the Federation.

This indicates that the Cardassians attacked with what they had and the Federation fought defensively, this went on for several years until the Cardassians had exhausted themselves on the offensive and they went to the table, get almost nothing (maybe negotiations dragged on) meanwhile the Cardassians began to rearm and finally when the Cardassians were forced off of Bajor they had enough ships to launch a limited offensive against the Federation (hoping to grab a system and hope the Feds would cave), Jellico saw off this idea and the Feds hammered out a final peace treaty with the Cardassians which resulted in the DMZ being formed.

Long story short, the Cardassians attacked the Feds because they thought they were weak willed, the Feds not wanting to admit to folks back home that they are at war, play defensive and because of the huge edge they have this works (although several thousand - million colonists die as a result of this) and the Cardassians end up being defeated without the Feds ever having to launch an attack.