Sir?!

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-11-13 04:07pm

I was just watching DS9: "Behind the Enemy Lines" and in the scene where Dax holds the little speech with the Phaser bank thingy the entire crew present in the room addresses her as Sir and this wasn't the first time crewmen have addressed female officers as Sir in DS9. Isn't this a bit weird? Terry Farrell certainly doesn't look like a man, even though she is pretty tall.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-11-13 04:09pm

Sir Sirius wrote:I was just watching DS9: "Behind the Enemy Lines" and in the scene where Dax holds the little speech with the Phaser bank thingy the entire crew present in the room addresses her as Sir and this wasn't the first time crewmen have addressed female officers as Sir in DS9. Isn't this a bit weird? Terry Farrell certainly doesn't look like a man, even though she is pretty tall.

Maybe because she is a trill it is her preference.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-11-13 04:11pm

Actually, early on in Voyager they explained that it is Starfleet policy to call superior officers "sir" regardless of sex. Janeway didn't like to be called "sir" and preffered to be called "captain" or "ma'am" in a pinch.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2003-11-13 05:41pm

A more interesting question is why "Mr Savvik"?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-11-13 05:46pm

This is not uncommon. In the US military it is considered proper to refer to all COs as Sir. It is not beyond the stretch of imagination that titles in the military as used in Trek have some of their gender removed and its a simple title.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-11-13 05:49pm

Sharp-kun wrote:A more interesting question is why "Mr Savvik"?

Saavik was a man in the first draft and the line never was fixed in the script when Kirstie Alley was cast and the character was rewritten as a woman.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2003-11-13 05:56pm

Iceberg wrote:
Sharp-kun wrote:A more interesting question is why "Mr Savvik"?
Saavik was a man in the first draft and the line never was fixed in the script when Kirstie Alley was cast and the character was rewritten as a woman.

Ahh. I've wondered about that for years and never bothered to find out why

Thanks ^_^

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-11-13 07:26pm

Alyeska wrote:This is not uncommon. In the US military it is considered proper to refer to all COs as Sir.

I asked about that in the Mess and Chardok and Wicked Pilot disagreed with you, so it's not done in the Army or the Air Force, that still leaves the Navy open.

Alyeska wrote:It is not beyond the stretch of imagination that titles in the military as used in Trek have some of their gender removed and its a simple title.

"Sir" is a gender specific word, it sounds awfully bizarre and even demeaning in a way for Starfleet to use it like that. I sure as hell wouldn't like to be called ma'am.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-11-13 07:32pm

Sir Sirius wrote:Sir" is a gender specific word, it sounds awfully bizarre and even demeaning in a way for Starfleet to use it like that. I sure as hell wouldn't like to be called ma'am.

Need I remind you of the male skirts in TNG?

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-11-13 07:36pm

Alyeska wrote:Need I remind you of the male skirts in TNG?

So Starfleet doesn't mind if it's crewmen like crossdressing, equal opportunities for the drag queens and all, but having all female officers adressed as if they were men is a bit sexist. What would the feminazis say?

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-11-13 07:39pm

Alyeska wrote:
Sir Sirius wrote:Sir" is a gender specific word, it sounds awfully bizarre and even demeaning in a way for Starfleet to use it like that. I sure as hell wouldn't like to be called ma'am.
Need I remind you of the male skirts in TNG?

Pics please?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-11-13 09:47pm

Alyeska wrote:This is not uncommon. In the US military it is considered proper to refer to all COs as Sir.

No its not, I got my ass beat in boot camp for that.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-11-13 09:48pm

Sir Sirius wrote:
Alyeska wrote:This is not uncommon. In the US military it is considered proper to refer to all COs as Sir.
I asked about that in the Mess and Chardok and Wicked Pilot disagreed with you, so it's not done in the Army or the Air Force, that still leaves the Navy open.

Not in the Navy.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-11-13 10:20pm

Females officers are not referred to as Sir in any of the US armed forces.

I think they did it in TNG and DS9 to somehow prove they've moved beyond recognition of gender.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2003-11-13 11:58pm

TrailerParkJawa wrote:Females officers are not referred to as Sir in any of the US armed forces.

I think they did it in TNG and DS9 to somehow prove they've moved beyond recognition of gender.

Well, at least a couple of Sci-fi authors, in some of their stories, have all officers referred to as sir, whatever the sex. There are advantages to the concept of calling all officers sir.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-11-14 01:52am

Ender wrote:
Alyeska wrote:This is not uncommon. In the US military it is considered proper to refer to all COs as Sir.
No its not, I got my ass beat in boot camp for that.

When I was at a Naval Academy summer seminar, one of my friends got his ass chewed off for accidently referring to a woman as "sir".

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-11-14 01:56pm

Jadzia Dax was pretty damn manly, guys, you gotta admit. I'd get to thinking of her as a guy if I were under her command.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-11-14 04:00pm

Did you guys just step over my post? It is CANNON that starfleet policy was to call all superior officers "sir" regardless of gender ref the first episode of Voyager.

There are also genderless species in Trek, so perhaps it was in place to cover those instances as well.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-11-14 04:51pm

It was, IIRC, standard practice in the US armed forces to refer to all superior officers as sir, regardless of gender until sometime in the 40s. At any rate, afer 400 years, there's no reason why the word "sir" couldn't shift to a gender-neutral pronoun. Ttechnically, in modern English, "he" is neutral when the gender of the antecedent is unspecified (though most people misuse "they" in that situation) so it's not unprecedented to have a masculine pronoun do double duty in English.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-11-14 05:00pm

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote: Pics please?

I'm aware of one in Encounter at Farpoint when they are evacuating the battle section to the saucer (you'd think the children would at least be restricted to the saucer anyway...)

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2003-11-14 07:46pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Sir Sirius wrote:I was just watching DS9: "Behind the Enemy Lines" and in the scene where Dax holds the little speech with the Phaser bank thingy the entire crew present in the room addresses her as Sir and this wasn't the first time crewmen have addressed female officers as Sir in DS9. Isn't this a bit weird? Terry Farrell certainly doesn't look like a man, even though she is pretty tall.
Maybe because she is a trill it is her preference.

True - Sisko called him Old Man after all.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-11-15 12:58am

I am watching the TNG episode right now where the rogue Borg show up. When Admiral Nachaya (a woman) orders Picard to kill the Borg during any future opportunities, Picard says "yes, sir!"

Let's face it, StarFleet had one term for all senior officers (sir). B & B decided to just change it to Ma'am for Voyager.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-11-15 01:43am

RedImperator wrote:It was, IIRC, standard practice in the US armed forces to refer to all superior officers as sir, regardless of gender until sometime in the 40s. At any rate, afer 400 years, there's no reason why the word "sir" couldn't shift to a gender-neutral pronoun. Ttechnically, in modern English, "he" is neutral when the gender of the antecedent is unspecified (though most people misuse "they" in that situation) so it's not unprecedented to have a masculine pronoun do double duty in English.

So using 'they' in such a manner is grammatically incorrect? Or improper or what?

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-11-15 12:09pm

Stofsk wrote:
RedImperator wrote:It was, IIRC, standard practice in the US armed forces to refer to all superior officers as sir, regardless of gender until sometime in the 40s. At any rate, afer 400 years, there's no reason why the word "sir" couldn't shift to a gender-neutral pronoun. Ttechnically, in modern English, "he" is neutral when the gender of the antecedent is unspecified (though most people misuse "they" in that situation) so it's not unprecedented to have a masculine pronoun do double duty in English.
So using 'they' in such a manner is grammatically incorrect? Or improper or what?

It's grammatically incorrect when it's used as a singular pronoun. Under no circumstances is "they" (or "them" or "their", for that matter) singular, and it drives me fucking batty when they're used as neuter singular pronouns. If you MUST be gender senitive, use "he or she", "him or her", and "his or hers". They're ugly kludges, but at least they work.

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2003-11-15 12:19pm

RedImperator wrote:It's grammatically incorrect when it's used as a singular pronoun. Under no circumstances is "they" (or "them" or "their", for that matter) singular, and it drives me fucking batty when they're used as neuter singular pronouns. If you MUST be gender senitive, use "he or she", "him or her", and "his or hers". They're ugly kludges, but at least they work.

How do you feel about artificial (but somewhat common) constructions like 'sie' or 'hir' (she or he, his or her, respectively)?

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Sir?!

Sir?!

Re: Sir?!

Re: Sir?!