Twilight: The Xindi Death Star!

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Looks obviously like a large scale phaser "rock shattering" event.

There is also something else I'm interested in: After the beam hit the Atlantic, the vapor was mainly caused by the heat coming out of those cracks. Does this strengthen the fact that the beam wasn't DET?

[The Yosemite Bear]

purhaps it started fission with all that hydrogen in the atlantic...

[BenRG]

I'm no tech-head, but I think I have a fairly good idea of what happened when the Xindi PD fired its' main gun (which looks like an unmodified high-output phaser to me).

The initial blast was strong enough to shatter Earth's crust. The reason that it propegated 'slowly' is because the shattering effect could only propegate at the speed of sound through the relevant material (which is about 2-3 times that in air, IIRC).

Simulaneously, as Mike suggests, there seems to be this typical Star Trek weapons effect trick of "exponential increase of energy in a closed system". Simply put, the energy blast (possibly through some kind of resonance effect) created an ever increasing level of energy within the target until the energy reached the minium energy required to force the object to 'explosively decouple' (to use the technobabble phrase from the TNG tech manual). We've seen this happen with how smaller phase-technology based weapons affect rocks. The most likely mechanism for this is for the phaser to create a self-propegating matter-conversion effect turning matter into radiation (mostly neutrinos and visual-wavelength photons). Although this isn't very dramatic in small objects, in the centre of a large object (such as a class-M planet)... Well, the effects speak for itself.

I would just like to add a little point about the device itself. Comparing the Xindi PD to the Imperial Death Star is about as relevant as comparing an ICBM to an Iowa-class battleship. While the Death Star is an integrated weapon system with defensive as well as offensive capabilities and large amounts of non-mission-related equipment, the Xindi PD is just a big gun. It might not even have its' own FTL propulsion system, relying on tugs to move it around. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Xindi deployed it as a last-gasp "Doomsday" response to Earth getting closer and closer to victory in the conventional war. Try to visualise the Death Star's superlaser, with a thin structural hull to keep loose bits in, being towed around by large tugs and you'll get the idea.

[TheDarkling]

It might not even have its' own FTL propulsion system, relying on tugs to move it around. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Xindi deployed it as a last-gasp "Doomsday" response to Earth getting closer and closer to victory in the conventional war.

There was no conventional war and it seemed to have its own FTL propulsion (the smaller version did for a fact).

[Ender]

To ask a question, while its clear the planets explosion was some kind of chain reaction, why is everyone assuming its NDF? NDF reactions with phasers and what not make matter vanish, not planets explode...

If they got the tech from the future, (Very Likely) then I hold its a techno way of doing what 8472 does via biological components.

[Admiral_K]

Personally, I'd guess that a starwars planetary shield should be able to withstand a blast from such a device at least once and possibly more times.

[Ubiquitous]

How many times more efficient is that thing compared to the incredibly large Death Star?

[Admiral_K]

Efficiency is irrelevant given the different purposes of each.

Thats like asking if a volkswagon is "more efficient" than a tank.

More fuel efficient? Sure, but Its not the thing you'd choose to attack an enemy fortress.

[The Kernel]

I think the real question here is why did they bother destroying the planet? If this was a DET weapon, then there is no conceviable reason to blast the planet to rubble like that when a sterilization of the surface would have been more than adaquate. At least the Death Star had an excuse for having the big honking DET cannon; to break through the strongest planetary shields.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Different purpose? Both blow up planets...

[Iceberg]

Ah, but the Death Star has to blow through shields that can take over 10,000 times the energy necessary to destroy the planet in the first place. The Xindi thingie doesn't.

[Admiral_K]

The Death Star was meant to inspire terror. Part of its terror factor was not only that it could blow up a planet, but that no known ship or even fleet of ships could stop it.

It needed the additional weapons and firepower it had in order to deal with planetary shields and enemy fleets. Not just crack the crust and shatter a world.

[The Silence and I]

Hehe, "not just crack the crust and shatter a world" That is funny on so many levels
Seriously though, this weapon must have a chain-reaction component (duh!), but this reaction is unlike other reactions in Startrek I am familiar with, in that it both is delayed and results in positive energy gain. For example phasers, also chain-reactions, start doing their thing nearly off the bat, and they make matter dissapear, not release huge amounts of energy (at least not tangible energy). This reaction took several seconds to start, and caused a huge release of energy--as Wong has said, millions of times greater than the starting beam. This suggests to me that the damage done before the jump in energy levels (in the first 15 seconds or so) was largely DET. And IIRC this would make the beam's actual firepower similar to the superlaser mounted on say an eclipse-class superstardestroyer. I don't know if that weapon can penetrate a (starwars) planetary shield or not, but it suggests to me a very significant firepower in the Startrek universe.

[Darth Wong]

Hehe, "not just crack the crust and shatter a world" That is funny on so many levels
Seriously though, this weapon must have a chain-reaction component (duh!), but this reaction is unlike other reactions in Startrek I am familiar with, in that it both is delayed and results in positive energy gain. For example phasers, also chain-reactions, start doing their thing nearly off the bat, and they make matter dissapear, not release huge amounts of energy (at least not tangible energy). This reaction took several seconds to start, and caused a huge release of energy--as Wong has said, millions of times greater than the starting beam.

Actually, the "Scorpion" blast from Species 8472 was very similar in that respect: heavy surface damage but no bulk movement until a considerable time had elapsed and the beam had stopped firing, and then suddenly BOOM. I think the Trek production people are fond of the way the effect looks.

This suggests to me that the damage done before the jump in energy levels (in the first 15 seconds or so) was largely DET. And IIRC this would make the beam's actual firepower similar to the superlaser mounted on say an eclipse-class superstardestroyer. I don't know if that weapon can penetrate a (starwars) planetary shield or not, but it suggests to me a very significant firepower in the Startrek universe.

No kidding, it's apparently some kind of doomsday tech from the future. But it's hard to speculate about whether this thing could crack a planetary shield without knowing what kind of shield it is. Alderaan's planetary shield was immensely strong and could probably deflect it with ease, but Alderaan had one of the strongest planetary shields in the entire Republic according to Tarkin. There's no way of knowing how much weaker planetary shields can be.

[Chris OFarrell]

Partialy on topic with that, any idea why the Republic never redeployed Axiel superlasers in the war with the Vong? They understand and can duplicated the technology behind it easily enough. And they are building SSD sized captial ships, at least the Mon Cals are....

Hmm. I wonder what this Xindi beam would do to a Vong Worldship...

[Connor MacLeod]

How many times more efficient is that thing compared to the incredibly large Death Star?

You mean aside from the fact the Death Star was a mobile battlestation with its own fighter complement, ground forces and army, vast array of weapons and defenses, and so on and so forth? To say nothing of all the armor it had?

Edit: Point of this being, Size/efficiency is only effective in a strict comparison. The Death Star cannot be compared because it has more than just "planet killing" as part of its role.

[Connor MacLeod]

Partialy on topic with that, any idea why the Republic never redeployed Axiel superlasers in the war with the Vong? They understand and can duplicated the technology behind it easily enough. And they are building SSD sized captial ships, at least the Mon Cals are....

Hmm. I wonder what this Xindi beam would do to a Vong Worldship...

Think about the Ion cannon frigates in Homeworld and you have your answer. Axial weapons require you to generally point your weapon at your enemy. In the case of a large, axial weapon you would have to literally move the ship itself in orer to bring it into range (you can perhaps mitigate this with "off center" firing, but even still you must shift the vessel to some degree.) Which is why turrets can be a distinct advantage.

[The Kernel]

What I mean was that destroying the entire world is overkill for what the Xindi needed. The Empire was inspiring terror and needed to shoot through planetary shields with the Death Star but the Xindi needed only to depopulate the planet. No humans, no threat to their future.

Remember the Little Doctor weapon from Ender's Game? Same concept, it disrupts the forces that bond atoms together which made it an effective weapon. Because of its chain reaction effect, it ALSO happened to be able to destroy a planet although this was not its primary purpose. What I mean is that if the Xindi weapon was DET, why make it so powerful that it can blast an entire planet to rubble? It's a waste of energy with no planetary shield to deal with and it makes no sense to build such a thing when all they needed to do was kill every human on Earth. This proves that this was a chain-reaction weapon by sheer common sense.

[The Kernel]

Partialy on topic with that, any idea why the Republic never redeployed Axiel superlasers in the war with the Vong? They understand and can duplicated the technology behind it easily enough. And they are building SSD sized captial ships, at least the Mon Cals are....

Hmm. I wonder what this Xindi beam would do to a Vong Worldship...

Think about the Ion cannon frigates in Homeworld and you have your answer. Axial weapons require you to generally point your weapon at your enemy. In the case of a large, axial weapon you would have to literally move the ship itself in orer to bring it into range (you can perhaps mitigate this with "off center" firing, but even still you must shift the vessel to some degree.) Which is why turrets can be a distinct advantage.

Very true, but it still can be effective to have a ship designed around a spinal weapon like that. The A-10 can do an enormous amount of damage with it's main gun because it is essentially an airframe built around a cannon.

[Connor MacLeod]

Very true, but it still can be effective to have a ship designed around a spinal weapon like that. The A-10 can do an enormous amount of damage with it's main gun because it is essentially an airframe built around a cannon.

A-10's are also fighters and kind of manuverable if I remember correctly (I could be wrong, though.) Try building an axial mounted cannon on a much larger and less manuverable fighter. Doesn't work as well on a capital ship now, does it?

[The Kernel]

A-10's are also fighters and kind of manuverable if I remember correctly (I could be wrong, though.) Try building an axial mounted cannon on a much larger and less manuverable fighter. Doesn't work as well on a capital ship now, does it?

Depends. Modern naval ships manuver very slowly and on a curved plane, so these types of weapons don't make as much sense for them. With a starship with decent manuverability these weapons might make more sense. Also, think about the effectivness against more static targets like large capital ships or Golan defense platforms.

[Chris OFarrell]

Partialy on topic with that, any idea why the Republic never redeployed Axiel superlasers in the war with the Vong? They understand and can duplicated the technology behind it easily enough. And they are building SSD sized captial ships, at least the Mon Cals are....

Hmm. I wonder what this Xindi beam would do to a Vong Worldship...

Think about the Ion cannon frigates in Homeworld and you have your answer. Axial weapons require you to generally point your weapon at your enemy. In the case of a large, axial weapon you would have to literally move the ship itself in orer to bring it into range (you can perhaps mitigate this with "off center" firing, but even still you must shift the vessel to some degree.) Which is why turrets can be a distinct advantage.

Yeah but Vong fleets are rather large targets. I mean instead of the SSD Guardain and equivilant super Mon cal ships blasting long range fire into the Vong during the engagement at Mon Calamari...think of the fun if an ESSD level superlaser had opened fire down that vector instead off a volley of Turbolasers...may have shortened the engagement a little

[BenRG]

There was no conventional war and it seemed to have its own FTL propulsion (the smaller version did for a fact).

Really? And this was how many years after the Xindi surprise attack at the beginning of Season 3? You surprise me!

On the matter of the smaller version of the weapon, that was a completed machine. The weapon I saw in those screencaps earlier in the thread looked sort-of incomplete to me, as if they had yanked it out of the shipyard as soon as it was complete enough to perform its' primary mission. I suspected that, like the TCS Behemoth in 'WCIII', many of its' secondary systems (as well as some non-mission-critical primary systems) might not yet have been fitted yet. Just look at the DS2. It worked fairly well as a stationary gun platform, even though about 1/4 of the volume of its' superstructure was still missing.

[TurboPhaser]

Actually, the "Scorpion" blast from Species 8472 was very similar in that respect: heavy surface damage but no bulk movement until a considerable time had elapsed and the beam had stopped firing, and then suddenly BOOM. I think the Trek production people are fond of the way the effect looks.

No kidding, it's apparently some kind of doomsday tech from the future. But it's hard to speculate about whether this thing could crack a planetary shield without knowing what kind of shield it is. Alderaan's planetary shield was immensely strong and could probably deflect it with ease, but Alderaan had one of the strongest planetary shields in the entire Republic according to Tarkin. There's no way of knowing how much weaker planetary shields can be.

Well, you have to admit the chain reaction type thing does look good.

And really, I dont see everyones making such a fuss over this thing firing at low power then powering up as its firing. I mean, a car cant just take off at 100 Km/h straight away can it? It has to speed up, so maybe this beam simply behaves in a similar manner.

Could it deflect it with ease? I wouldnt be so sure. It could of course deflect the beam at its lowest, but once it powers up, could the Alderaan shield stop it? And we dont know how long that Xindi beam was capable of continuously firing, if it didnt blast through once it had powered up, could they just keep pumping energy into their shield until it collapsed?

And this is going back a bit, but I see no 'rip off' of those images showing the Death Star Beam heading towards Alderaan and the Xindi beam heading towards Earth. The are both beams of energy about to hit a planet. How different can they make them look.

[RedImperator]

Uh, even if the Xindi weapon was pure DET, it would still be far less powerful than the DS superlaser (judging by the speed at which fragments of Earth were moving vs. fragments of Alderaan and difference in the time it took for each planet to shatter), and Alderaan's shield resisted the DS superlaser for a few fractions of a second. Unless you'd like to throw around a big fat "no limits" fallacy and claim the Xindi planet killer can fire for however long it will take to crack Alderaan's shield, I don't think you can claim it can punch through that.