Enterprise-E VS Defiant

[Alyeska]

I am not arguing that they are infact weaker weapons. I am just pointing out that the difference in look does not necessitate them being stronger.

Seeing as the Enterprise recieved three new torpedo launchers, regenerative shields, and ablative armor while in refit, I think its very safe to assume that she also recieved new phasers that are also more powerful.

[MrAnderson]

I am not arguing that they are infact weaker weapons. I am just pointing out that the difference in look does not necessitate them being stronger.

Seeing as the Enterprise recieved three new torpedo launchers, regenerative shields, and ablative armor while in refit, I think its very safe to assume that she also recieved new phasers that are also more powerful.

Actually I see no reason to assume this at all. Maybe the phasers were redesigned with the Borg in mind and auto frequency rotate.

There could be all sorts of reasons that the phaser was improved that explains the visual difference without there being an actual increase in the total energy output of the weapon.


You cannot even prove that the E-E had improved phasers. The only time in Nemesis you see them fired by the E-E was when she was ambushed by the Scimitar. The Scimitar specifically ambushed them in some sort of nebula that we know for certain blocked long range communication. for all we know the nebula also caused the phaser beams to expand when fired.

You don't know and I don't know and there is no evidence to support either arguement so basically one cannot in any way make a solid statement that the E-E had enhanced phasers in Nemesis.

[Alyeska]

I am not arguing that they are infact weaker weapons. I am just pointing out that the difference in look does not necessitate them being stronger.

Seeing as the Enterprise recieved three new torpedo launchers, regenerative shields, and ablative armor while in refit, I think its very safe to assume that she also recieved new phasers that are also more powerful.

Actually I see no reason to assume this at all. Maybe the phasers were redesigned with the Borg in mind and auto frequency rotate.

There could be all sorts of reasons that the phaser was improved that explains the visual difference without there being an actual increase in the total energy output of the weapon.


You cannot even prove that the E-E had improved phasers. The only time in Nemesis you see them fired by the E-E was when she was ambushed by the Scimitar. The Scimitar specifically ambushed them in some sort of nebula that we know for certain blocked long range communication. for all we know the nebula also caused the phaser beams to expand when fired.

You don't know and I don't know and there is no evidence to support either arguement so basically one cannot in any way make a solid statement that the E-E had enhanced phasers in Nemesis.

I never said there was explicit proof. I stated that inlight of other facts, the assumption is not outlandish.

[MrAnderson]

Seeing as the Enterprise recieved three new torpedo launchers, regenerative shields, and ablative armor while in refit, I think its very safe to assume that she also recieved new phasers that are also more powerful.

Actually I see no reason to assume this at all. Maybe the phasers were redesigned with the Borg in mind and auto frequency rotate.

There could be all sorts of reasons that the phaser was improved that explains the visual difference without there being an actual increase in the total energy output of the weapon.


You cannot even prove that the E-E had improved phasers. The only time in Nemesis you see them fired by the E-E was when she was ambushed by the Scimitar. The Scimitar specifically ambushed them in some sort of nebula that we know for certain blocked long range communication. for all we know the nebula also caused the phaser beams to expand when fired.

You don't know and I don't know and there is no evidence to support either arguement so basically one cannot in any way make a solid statement that the E-E had enhanced phasers in Nemesis.

I never said there was explicit proof. I stated that inlight of other facts, the assumption is not outlandish.

No, not outlandish at all. But it is completely unsupportable.

Also I was thinking that we do not even know for sure that the E-E was upgraded between First Contact and Nemesis. We only see the E-E fire one real volley in FC so we cnanot really gauge her full firepower there. We really do not see much in Insurrection either since Riker was so keen on running.

We really only see the E-E open fire long term in Nemesis. So how can we say with any certainty that she carries more firepower than in FC?

[Chris OFarrell]

Actually I see no reason to assume this at all. Maybe the phasers were redesigned with the Borg in mind and auto frequency rotate.

Firstly, this makes utterly no sense. Why would an ability to auto remodulate phasers alter the physical phaser beam? Why would the E-E get the upgrade NOW and now before? Especialy given that the Sovereign was built as part of the Borg defence buildup? We've seen randomly changing the frequency of phasers doesn't change the visable beam. Look at the E-D in Best Of Both Worlds when in its first engagement against the Cube. When Shelby orders Data to rapidly change the modulation on the phasers. There is no difference in any of the beams fired.

And there is no indication that the E-E would not have had this ability when it went to fight the Borg.

There could be all sorts of reasons that the phaser was improved that explains the visual difference without there being an actual increase in the total energy output of the weapon.

Oh of course. There are PLENTY of reasons for a much thicker beam with a far greater luminosity that don't involve a power increase. Funny how we've seen weak phaser beams having a quite low luminosity and stronger ones a much greater luminosity. Heck if you want a recent example, go and watch Enterprise. When they upscale the Phase Pistols to deal with the Borg. Each time Read ups the power in testing, the beam gets a little thicker and a little brighter. Funny that isn't it?

You cannot even prove that the E-E had improved phasers.

Lets see. We have a clear visual difference between the older E-E's beams and the current beams. We have precidents that show as phasers get more powerful their beams get thicker and brighter. I wonder....

The only time in Nemesis you see them fired by the E-E was when she was ambushed by the Scimitar. The Scimitar specifically ambushed them in some sort of nebula that we know for certain blocked long range communication. for all we know the nebula also caused the phaser beams to expand when fired.

Thats pure unfounded speculation without any proof from the episode, characters, whatever. Not to mention exactly WHAT in the Nebula would cause phaser beams to expand? You ever hear of Ocams Razor?

You don't know and I don't know and there is no evidence to support either arguement so basically one cannot in any way make a solid statement that the E-E had enhanced phasers in Nemesis.

Hardly. We can go upon both commen sense and the precedents of phasers behavour we have seen in the past, added to the fact that the rest of the Enterprise's defensive and offensive systems had received a clear upgrade in capibility. Your theory is horribly complex, has no backing in either Nemesis or other ST episodes to do with Nebulas or phasers. Mine has precidents with phasers in other ST episodes, fits with the upgrades the E-E had gotten and with commen sense. Greater luminosity in an energy beam probably means greater power.

Get it?

[Howedar]

Also I was thinking that we do not even know for sure that the E-E was upgraded between First Contact and Nemesis. We only see the E-E fire one real volley in FC so we cnanot really gauge her full firepower there. We really do not see much in Insurrection either since Riker was so keen on running.

Incorrect. There are surface features on the Nemesis Enterprise which are not present on the FC-I Enterprise.

[MrAnderson]

Also I was thinking that we do not even know for sure that the E-E was upgraded between First Contact and Nemesis. We only see the E-E fire one real volley in FC so we cnanot really gauge her full firepower there. We really do not see much in Insurrection either since Riker was so keen on running.

Incorrect. There are surface features on the Nemesis Enterprise which are not present on the FC-I Enterprise.

Do we see weapons fir from those new surface features?

[MrAnderson]

You ever hear of Ocams Razor?

Get it?

Yes I have. But since Ocams Razor basically tells you to take the simplest answer that is supported by the evidence I fail to see what your point would be.

At no point do we see the Nemesis Ent-E fire on a target it has fired on in the past thus allowing us to compare weapon strength.

Your explanation for a change in weapon visual appearance is to say the weapon has to be different and that difference has to be an increase in firepower. You are making TWO leaps here without a single thread of proof.

On the other hand I merely suggest that the nebula was affecting the visual appearance of the phasers.

Whose stance can actually be supported?

[Kuja]

Also I was thinking that we do not even know for sure that the E-E was upgraded between First Contact and Nemesis. We only see the E-E fire one real volley in FC so we cnanot really gauge her full firepower there. We really do not see much in Insurrection either since Riker was so keen on running.

Incorrect. There are surface features on the Nemesis Enterprise which are not present on the FC-I Enterprise.

Do we see weapons fir from those new surface features?

Irrelevant. Howedar's point is that the ship was upgraded, thus proving that your first sentence is incorrect.

[Kuja]

You ever hear of Ocams Razor?

Get it?

Yes I have. But since Ocams Razor basically tells you to take the simplest answer that is supported by the evidence I fail to see what your point would be.

At no point do we see the Nemesis Ent-E fire on a target it has fired on in the past thus allowing us to compare weapon strength.

Your explanation for a change in weapon visual appearance is to say the weapon has to be different and that difference has to be an increase in firepower. You are making TWO leaps here without a single thread of proof.

On the other hand I merely suggest that the nebula was affecting the visual appearance of the phasers.

Whose stance can actually be supported?

Considering that Chris actually uses evidence to support his position and you just say "We can't possibly know.", his stance is supported and your isn't.

[Howedar]

Incorrect. There are surface features on the Nemesis Enterprise which are not present on the FC-I Enterprise.

Do we see weapons fir from those new surface features?

Yes, we do.

[Crazedwraith]

Despite its Heavier firepower what proof to we have that the E-E can hit the Defiant. As far as i can remember we seen her hit huge cubes,immoble spheres. It had to manuver to point-blank to fire at it with any presistion. Any the defiant aint excatly a wallow pig in space is it?

[Alyeska]

Despite its Heavier firepower what proof to we have that the E-E can hit the Defiant. As far as i can remember we seen her hit huge cubes,immoble spheres. It had to manuver to point-blank to fire at it with any presistion. Any the defiant aint excatly a wallow pig in space is it?

Insurrection proves quite clearly the Enterprise can hit manueverable targets with its phasers. Hitting the Defiant with torpedoes would merely be a matter of firing plenty of torps at it.

[Sir Sirius]

Despite its Heavier firepower what proof to we have that the E-E can hit the Defiant. As far as i can remember we seen her hit huge cubes,immoble spheres. It had to manuver to point-blank to fire at it with any presistion. Any the defiant aint excatly a wallow pig in space is it?

The Lakota hit the Defiant in "Paradise Lost" with out much difficulty, it is somewhat unlikely that E-E weapons would be far less accurate then those on an Excelsior class.

[The Silence and I]

Wow! I find it hard to believe this thread still lives

The Defiant carries four pulse phaser cannons, and mark one q-torps. The E-E has 14+ phaser arrays and the evidence for them being type 12+ (really, really evil...DS9 level phaser firepower or greater) seems good. It also has superior shields, firing arcs, armor, and even has enough maneuverability to surprise the Defiant. What is the argument?

[Gandalf]

Well I was not aware of such superiority, I only saw Nemesis once. I analyse on the second watching normally.

[MrAnderson]

Wow! I find it hard to believe this thread still lives

The Defiant carries four pulse phaser cannons, and mark one q-torps. The E-E has 14+ phaser arrays and the evidence for them being type 12+ (really, really evil...DS9 level phaser firepower or greater) seems good. It also has superior shields, firing arcs, armor, and even has enough maneuverability to surprise the Defiant. What is the argument?

Maybe I have missed it. Where does the E-E show surprising agility?