Enterprise 301 "The Xindi" *Spoilers*

[Admiral_K]

Alright then lets sum up our points without all the damn quotes. You go first, then myself and Darkling will respond and we will let the people decide.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Alright then lets sum up our points without all the damn quotes. You go first, then myself and Darkling will respond and we will let the people decide.

Fine.

Starfleet operates under a military chain of command, answers only to Earth's government, holds military assets and performs military functions. Therefore, Starfleet is a military organization.

The closest current parallels to Starfleet that I am familiar with are the United States Navy and the United States Air Force. Since Starfleet's chain of command most closely resembles that of the United States Navy, we will compare these two.

The United States Navy does not, to my knowledge, permit the service of civilian foreign nationals aboard its vessels, and for such an event to occur, the nation of the civilian in question would have to be on good terms with the United States government. Since there is no compelling evidence to the contrary, it is reasonable to assume that Starfleet would parallel this doctrine as it does other Naval doctrines, and the same would hold true for them. Thus, we may conclude that Phlox was included in the original situation shown in "Broken Bow" in the capacity of the Klingon's personal physician, and Archer's specific request for him was granted as quickly as it was for this specific reason.

Phlox's continued service on Enterprise, however, would have required specific procedures be followed and permissions be granted that would be unlikely if not impossible were the two governments not engaged in a cooperative relationship.

Because the two governments have a cooperative relationship as of "Broken Bow", and because cooperative relationships realistically take a good deal of time to develop, we may reasonable assume that the Denobulans have been known to Earth for some time, possibly even nearly as long as the Vulcans.

Furthermore, it should be noted that Enterprise is, in its present form, a prototype starship. It is the first to use Warp 5 engines, the Transporter, phase cannons and advanced Photonic Torpedoes. As such, Starfleet would reasonably consider security aboard Enterprise a high priority.

It has been argued that it is not an advanced ship in the eyes of other nations -- such a rebuttal is meaningless, since current militaries still guard all their assets, including those not on the cutting edge of their technology. Enterprise is on the cutting edge of Terran technology as of 2151.

It has been explicitly stated that as of 2151, humans have not yet travelled as far as 90 ly from Earth (see here, under "Human Exploration And Colonies:

Human exploration and Colonies

The premise of Enterprise, as it was expressed several times in ENT: "Broken Bow" and other episodes, is quite clear: Human ships have never been very far away from the Sol system. Archer explicitly states that no human has ever been as far away from Earth as Risa (90 ly, "Two Days and Two Nights"), although there may be single, inofficial journeys he doesn't know of (as he later conjectures about the human body found at 100 ly distance in "Future Tense"). Moreover, humans don't know most of the neighboring alien species. Even the Andorians, who can be found in the vicinity of the Vulcan star system ("The Andorian Incident"), are unknown to humans until 2151. The location of Vulcan is still conjectural, but the nowadays widely accepted 40 Eridani-A would be a perfect candidate, a star system with a habitable zone at a distance of about 16 light years from Earth. Human ships achieve speeds of typically Warp 1.8 ("Fortunate Son"). This all points to a radius of human exploration of at most 20 light years as of 2151. At Warp 1.8 (old), such a distance could be covered in no less than three and a half years.

If Mr. Schneider's calculations are correct, which I admit I can't guarantee, then the 8 species involved in the Interspecies Medical Exchange are most likely species whose names are already familiar to us from TOS, due to the history of the usage of those names, and the corresponding percentage of the galaxy which is likely to have been familiar territory at the dates we first hear those names and the familiarity with which those names are used.

We must also remember that events which do not happen on screen are considered non-canon; thus, it is not permissible to fabricate instances where the Denobulans are seen or mentioned, as such inventions do not constitute canon evidence.

This all points to three basic conclusions:

1. The Denobulans are a familiar species as of 2151 -- familiar enough that one of their private citizens has been cleared by Starfleet and approved by his own government to practice medicine on an experimental Starfleet vessel.

2. The lack of Denobulan presence as early as 2265, an absence which continues until at least the 2370s, denotes a change in the status of the Denobulans as an active participant in Alpha Quadrant affairs.

3. The problem may be a peripheral one now -- but the odds are good, based on previous Trek character treatments, that we will see at least two Phlox-centric episodes featuring the Denobulans in the future, with will establish canonically an even greater early familiarity with this species, compounding the problem of their cultural absence in later centuries.

[TheDarkling]

My position is simple.

We have no reason to believe that Earth and Denobula have known each other for a long time or that they have a close relationship.

We do know that Earth and Denobula have recently begun to send doctors to each others world (recently as in a 4 years as of season three of Enterprise) and that Starfleet allows doctors participating in the IME to serve their time in the program under a Starfleet banner (whether all IME doctors end up in Starfleet is unknown but possible).

We cannot infer a close relationship by drawing a comparison between current politics and that of Earth 22nd century, Starfleet does not regard itself as a military and as has been observed throughout Trek history they do not conduct themselves in a military manner. To expect Starfleet therefore to react in the same manner to IME doctor as a modern navy would act to a civilian doctor is wrong (I do not believe a modern Navy vessel would allow civilians to run about on its ships at all).

With the above in mind we are left with the Denobulans being an unknown quantity when trying to place them in context of the relative power structure of the Alpha Quadrant (unlike the Vulcans and Klingons for example), so this then leads us to the conclusion that the only reason Denobulans get mentioned is because a member of that race is serving aboard the vessel we are watching (this is backed up by some dialogue including humans who have met many alien visitors to Earth but never a Denobulan).

So to reiterate

1. We know that Denobulans may not be important in the current political makeup of the AQ and in fact may be less important (with regard to Earth) then many other (unnamed) alien races.

Now onto the next part, not all (or even most, up to as many as 80%) Federation members have ever got a mention and even fewer numerous repeat mentions therefore non mention of a race does not mean they do not exist.
When we consider the amount of time we observe the trek universe for (about 2 hours per year given the time span covered) it is little wonder that not all these races get mentioned and it is also very possible that these mentions do not have a direct link to political influence or prominence in galactic affairs, it is very possible given that Humans are the most observed race that the only species that get mentioned are those that have had a large impact no human culture (which doesn’t necessarily correlate to political power).

To sum up this section.

2. A race not being mentioned and yet still existing has a long precedent in Star Trek and thus nothing can be reasonably be inferred from a non mention.

My 3rd point needs little explanation but I will flesh it out a little.

If we cannot reasonably conclude that Denobulans have a high level of influence during the 22nd century then we cannot judge a relative decline nor can we do so if we cannot judge the level of influence to be low during the 23rd century.

3. With neither a beginning state nor an end state it is impossible to judge the relative difference between those two states.

With further information from future episodes of the show these conclusions may change (although it is doubtful given the problem establishing an end state) but until then any conclusion professing to prove the difference between the two states (or even establish the states themselves) is hasty and ill founded.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

All right, those are the two main positions; let's have outside opinions.

[Admiral_K]

I had a long response which the message board ate, but basically what Darkling said is what I would say and I don't feel like typing it up again.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I had a long response which the message board ate, but basically what Darkling said is what I would say and I don't feel like typing it up again.

Then as I understand you, you're comfortable standing behind TheDarkling's statement of the contrary position. All that's left now is to find an outside party whose opinion we can all respect on this kind of subject to read the two positions and render a judgement.

Personally, I'd like to hear from Mike on it, although any of the veterans will do just fine.

[Aeolus]

I enjoyed it. Seeing the soldiers actually blow stuff away with accurate weapons fire was beautiful, as was the one guy who had and used a "scope" on his phaser.

I missed the beginning, but the weapons the MACOs used didn't behave like phasers. They looked more like plasma guns. Were they identified as phasers (or "phase-somethings") at some point in the show?

And that retractable scope kicked ass.

I suspect that they are like the"electro-pistol?" Hoshi refers too in season 1

[Jason von Evil]

Why exactly did you resurrect a dead thread?

[Aeolus]

Why exactly did you resurrect a dead thread?

I have been away from a computer for most of the last month. I was interested in the conversation.