Scimitar vs. Ent-E

[Kamakazie Sith]

Ahh just phasers.....alright.

BTW I think four SCS would be overkill against the Scimitar. Though it seems as though anyones reasonable guess would be acceptable.

The problem is that the quote is increadibly vague and doesn't really tell us anything. Realistically, they MUST have been getting power from the warp drive for the weapons though. They even admitted as much in TOS "Elan of Troyis"; when the warp engines were sabotaged, they could no longer use phasers OR photons, even at reduced power.

Maybe four Soverigns could take down a Scimitar, but keep in mind that they were planning to jump it with SEVEN starships including the E-E and at least one other large cruiser (probably a GCS), so even if the others were Excelsior refits and smaller, that's still an awful lot of firepower to take down a single ship.

I thought that in the TOS episode they simply couldn't manuever into firing position against the attacking Klingon ship, do you have a quote which states it effected weapons power?

And the large fleet isn't necessarily an indication of how powerful the Scimitar was but it could have just an indication of how critical the mission is.

[Chris OFarrell]

Really? I thought that began during the TOS movies.......

Remember TMP...they say something to that effect during the asteroid scene.

They said that they increased phaser efficiency by channeling them through the main engines.

Once more. Source please. And increasing phaser efficency does not equate to making them astonishginly more powerful...


Anyway to address some of the poitns:

Yes the E-E lost her Warp Core in Nemesis. Any idiot can see his. The last two disruptor hits hit the port Nacelle then right on the warp core. Then we move to a short of the warp core as it starts exploding, then the E-E drops out of warp speed.

Rikers coments about the Impulse Engines in BOBW are not exactly solid. Firstly he was arguing with Shelby and he I think argued against her all the time just so he COULD argue aginst her all the time. Rikers comment that they may need the extra power does not equate to them providing anything like the power of a warp core. A few extra terawatts may have made all the difference in defeating the Cubes shields and not. Though I think Riker was just being sturborn to annoy Shelby.


While Shinzon wasn't going for the Kill, this does NOT mean he was going easy on the Enterprise and not trying to pound the crap out of it. He was doing his best to disable her and to do this he did have to poor a rather large amount of firepower into her. His cloak combined with his double shield layer appears to have meant that the Enterprise simply couldn't throw out enough firepower in a short enough space of time to get through the defences and damage the ship.

I'd say a second Sovereign working with the E-E would have provided enough firepower to burn through the shields of the Scimitar and pound it to peices. Hell the Quantums provided enough relative power to cause a great deal of damage when they were used, enough to get an openeing the E-E could use to disable the cloak at the least. Two E-E's working together on that kind of stike may well have been able to realy pound through the Scimitars shields and cause critical damage.

[The Kernel]

Ahh just phasers.....alright.

BTW I think four SCS would be overkill against the Scimitar. Though it seems as though anyones reasonable guess would be acceptable.

The problem is that the quote is increadibly vague and doesn't really tell us anything. Realistically, they MUST have been getting power from the warp drive for the weapons though. They even admitted as much in TOS "Elan of Troyis"; when the warp engines were sabotaged, they could no longer use phasers OR photons, even at reduced power.

Maybe four Soverigns could take down a Scimitar, but keep in mind that they were planning to jump it with SEVEN starships including the E-E and at least one other large cruiser (probably a GCS), so even if the others were Excelsior refits and smaller, that's still an awful lot of firepower to take down a single ship.

I thought that in the TOS episode they simply couldn't manuever into firing position against the attacking Klingon ship, do you have a quote which states it effected weapons power?

And the large fleet isn't necessarily an indication of how powerful the Scimitar was but it could have just an indication of how critical the mission is.

No this was the conversation Kirk had with Mr. Scott:

Kirk: Scotty, can you give me partial power on the phaser banks?
Scott: No sir! Not a chance!

It was stated earlier in the episode that their impulse engines were still functioning at 93% power.

[The Kernel]

Once more. Source please. And increasing phaser efficency does not equate to making them astonishginly more powerful...

Star Trek: TMP, didn't you READ the thread before quoting it?

Anyway to address some of the poitns:

Yes the E-E lost her Warp Core in Nemesis. Any idiot can see his. The last two disruptor hits hit the port Nacelle then right on the warp core. Then we move to a short of the warp core as it starts exploding, then the E-E drops out of warp speed.

Oh, right, they dropped out of warp. So I suppose this means that their warp core went totally dead? Oh, right, that didn't happen...LaForge said nothing, the weapons were still working fine and they had TWO OTHER GODDAMN SHIPS WITH THEM!

Rikers coments about the Impulse Engines in BOBW are not exactly solid. Firstly he was arguing with Shelby and he I think argued against her all the time just so he COULD argue aginst her all the time. Rikers comment that they may need the extra power does not equate to them providing anything like the power of a warp core. A few extra terawatts may have made all the difference in defeating the Cubes shields and not. Though I think Riker was just being sturborn to annoy Shelby.

It doesn't matter one way or the other since you haven't proved the E-E's warp core was knocked out.

While Shinzon wasn't going for the Kill, this does NOT mean he was going easy on the Enterprise and not trying to pound the crap out of it. He was doing his best to disable her and to do this he did have to poor a rather large amount of firepower into her. His cloak combined with his double shield layer appears to have meant that the Enterprise simply couldn't throw out enough firepower in a short enough space of time to get through the defences and damage the ship.

Really? Multiple torpedeo hits, multiple phaser hits, multiple disruptor hits from the warbirds and A FUCKING CHUNK OF A SHIP THAT WOULD HAVE SET OFF THE WARP CORE OF A GCS and only 70% shield loss? Sounds pretty good to me.

Also, if you want to go by precident, Shinzon's shields should have been LESS efficient under cloak since no other ship before him could use either weapons, nor shields while cloaked. It stands to reason that his cloak must have been a huge drain and the Scimitar couldn't provide full power for all systems at the same time.

I'd say a second Sovereign working with the E-E would have provided enough firepower to burn through the shields of the Scimitar and pound it to peices. Hell the Quantums provided enough relative power to cause a great deal of damage when they were used, enough to get an openeing the E-E could use to disable the cloak at the least. Two E-E's working together on that kind of stike may well have been able to realy pound through the Scimitars shields and cause critical damage.

Exactly how much power would you give to those Warbirds then? They were a new model, probably at least the equivalent of a D'deridex-class which is in turn about the same firepower as a GCS. So the E-E had TWO of these ships on its side and it STILL couldn't put a dent in the Scimitar's shields. Also, a BIG FUCKING PIECE of one of the warbirds hit the Scimitar in such a way that it must have been greater than the Bozeman 'love tap" or the Jem'Haddar suicide run on the Oddyssey. Can you explain this?

[Chris OFarrell]

Once more. Source please. And increasing phaser efficency does not equate to making them astonishginly more powerful...

Star Trek: TMP, didn't you READ the thread before quoting it?

TMP is eighty years behind the technology curve, come up with a more relevent example. I'd point you to the case of 'Voyager', Day of Honor when they lost their warp core and on impulse engines they could power all their weapons at normal levels, though their shields were very weak.

Oh, right, they dropped out of warp. So I suppose this means that their warp core went totally dead?

Preaty much.

Oh, right, that didn't happen...LaForge said nothing, the weapons were still working fine and they had TWO OTHER GODDAMN SHIPS WITH THEM!

.......what?

Ok lets deal with this one at a time.

LaForge said, and I quote:
"He took out our warp drive with his first shot, we only have impulse Captian"
He might be refering to the engines or propulsion systems. Its very hard to tell from the contex. I submit he is talking about both. Its a fact that the core was kinda exploding and almost certianly not working. It took a disruptor hit. The Port nacelle also took a hit. Which shows Shinzon knows what he is doing, making damn sure the E-E is unable to go to warp, even if it had the power.

http://members.optushome.com.au/rogueone/eenem.avi

Clearly shown.

And what in the name of God do two other ships have to do with the E-E's warp core?

It doesn't matter one way or the other since you haven't proved the E-E's warp core was knocked out.

Watch the F*#(ing movie moron.

Really? Multiple torpedeo hits, multiple phaser hits, multiple disruptor hits from the warbirds and A FUCKING CHUNK OF A SHIP THAT WOULD HAVE SET OFF THE WARP CORE OF A GCS and only 70% shield loss? Sounds pretty good to me.

Nice Red Hering about the Galaxy class Starship. The Valdors are also not in the Soverigns leauge, they are far less heavily shielded then the Sovereign and don't appear to carry anything like the weapons loadout of the Scimitar or Enterprise (they didn't even fire a single torpedo).

Shield loss in the new times of Regenerative shields means almost nothing. The E-E lost her Dorsal shields at least twice and regenerated them back. The key is to deliver enough firepower over a SHORT period of time to get in and hurt the ship before its defences come back up. The second layer of shields makes this even harder on the Scimitar given that even if you punch through the fire layer, you have to get through the second before the first regenerates. Which is a problem in the twisting and turning fight in Nemsis.

Also, if you want to go by precident, Shinzon's shields should have been LESS efficient under cloak since no other ship before him could use either weapons, nor shields while cloaked.

...Except the Bird of Prey in Star Trek Six which used both weapons and had a cloak just fine. Don't know about shields though, nothing was ever said one way or the other. Further the reasoning behind the inability of cloaked ships to use weapons and shields was never realy explained in ST canon. I mean power is a possibility. But not a logical one, especialy when one of the two weapons requires more or less no power from the ship to use. And I'd direct you to 'Redemption' part I with the Klingon Civil War and the battle against Gowron in that episode. As one of the trators turns away and cloaks, it takes a couple of hits to a shield array when it cloaks. As in its vanished yet the shield is still taking hits.

It appears to be a technological reason more to do with the cloaking device then the power to the weapons. Possibly because the cloak tries to dampen emmisions from the ship and when a weapon is fired, it overloads and destroys the cloak or something. I truly don't know.

Though the Cloak didn't realy do the Scimitar that much good in Nemesis. The Enterprise and Valdors kept it pinned. And the Scimitar kept up such a volume of fire from such a close range, accurate targeting was quite easy.

It stands to reason that his cloak must have been a huge drain

Prove it. There has never been a single source which claims a cloaking device is a huge power drain on a Starship, its simply been assumed. The fact that cloaking devices can be run off small powerplants, like the cloaked self replicating mines over the long term doesn't appear to agree with the idea that a largescale power plant is required for a cloaking device. Sure the mines are much smaller, but in scale to the kinds of power demands you claiming...

and the Scimitar couldn't provide full power for all systems at the same time.

....and this is stated in the movie where?

Exactly how much power would you give to those Warbirds then? They were a new model, probably at least the equivalent of a D'deridex-class which is in turn about the same firepower as a GCS.

Unproven assertion. There is nothing saying the Valdor class is the equivilant of the D'Deridex class warbird. Their purpose need not be to replace the D'Deridex. If anything, you'd expect the Romulans to be trying to add more varity to their fleet. The D'Deridex was also said to be slower then the E-D, let alone the E-E which is quite a bit faster. Its probable that the Valdor is less well armred and protected but much faster then the older warbirds. A battlecruiser to the D'Deridex class battleship if you will. Denatra took those ships because only they had a hope of catching Shinzon and the Enterprise in time to make a difference. Such is my logic.

The simple fact is the Valdors didn't take very much firepower to knock out of the battle, the Enterprise took far more and kept going.

So the E-E had TWO of these ships on its side and it STILL couldn't put a dent in the Scimitar's shields.

We have rather little information on damage to the Scimitar. After the first exchange of fire between the Scimitar and E-E, Worf says 'minimal damage to the Scimitar' which implies SOME damage was done. After the second warbird was destroyed, the E-E was able to cause enough damage to destroy the Scimitars cloaking device and cause some kind of internal damage to the ship.

Also, a BIG FUCKING PIECE of one of the warbirds hit the Scimitar in such a way that it must have been greater than the Bozeman 'love tap" or the Jem'Haddar suicide run on the Oddyssey. Can you explain this?

...What? DId you watch the same movie we did? No scratch that, I KNOW you didn't.

The Scimitar NEVER took an impact from the Valdors sister ship exploding. It was the fucking ENTERPRISE that took the piece of the wing slaming into her, on her port shields. And I will add, didn't do any appricable damage to that shield arc. Can YOU explain THAT?

Oh and just in case you realy HAVN'T seen the movie:

http://members.optushome.com.au/rogueone/ewarnem.avi

[Ender]

You do realize the warp core is the main power for the ship, right?

And you aren't answering my question. When during the first barrage did they say they lost the warp core? In fact, when was this said at all?

Yes, so we see a direct hit to engineering and the thing go absolutly nuts and them drop out of warp, but obviously the thing is fine.

I also beleive the script confirms this, but I am not sure on that point.

Yes, if you consider getting your ass handed to you by someone not going for a kill "quite well"

If the Enterprise-E was such a match for the Scimitar, then why the hell did they need a fleet to even attempt to take her down?

Strawman. How about you read what I post for once?

[Ender]

And yet in Best of Both Worlds, Riker was concerned about not having the impulse engines to draw on for power if the ship separated.

Yes, it wasn't until the Dominion War era that they began running things off warp power and getting huge returns from it.

Where the hell did this come from?

They didn't start running things off warp power until the Dominion War? Please, I need to hear the source on this one.

DS9 "The Search", the thing that makes the Defiant so powerful is that it runs its weapons off the Warp core.

The fact that prior to this Warp power was not used for offensive and defensive functions comes from TNG Best of both Worlds and TNG The Nth Degree

In BOBW it was argued that the loss of the fusion reactors due to splitting the ship could make a significant difference, and in the Nth Degree, the fact that Barclay used warp power for the shieds was seen as remarkable.

How about you hold off the smartass smileys until you are right, ok?


EDIT: Spelling, ep name, and added a point.

[Ender]

Yes, it wasn't until the Dominion War era that they began running things off warp power and getting huge returns from it.

Sources please.

DS9 "The Search". I had to dig through all of rvalencia's SB posts to find it, so you had best be greatful.