Sovergeins in the Dominion war

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-10-06 07:28am

At Armada2files.com we had a discussion about whether Sovergeins should be included in the Dominion war mod. The argument was that Sovergeins were never seen in fighting in the Dominion war so they were not present. So what do you think ?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-10-06 07:41am

They weren't shown in DS9 because they were deemed to belong to the movies. However there is no plausible reason that the Federation's most advanced ship isn't fighting. I say go.

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2003-10-06 07:48am

IIRC the Feds have a talent for not using their best ships in war, prefering to rely on obsolete research vessels instead. The First mention of the Cardassians came after supposedly years of war during which the E-D, the Fed "flagship" didn't fire a single shot in anger. Most likely the Sovs were of analysing spacedust in the Klingon neutral zone or transporting supplies to a remote colony or other critical missions...

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-10-06 08:41am

CJvR wrote:IIRC the Feds have a talent for not using their best ships in war, prefering to rely on obsolete research vessels instead. The First mention of the Cardassians came after supposedly years of war during which the E-D, the Fed "flagship" didn't fire a single shot in anger. Most likely the Sovs were of analysing spacedust in the Klingon neutral zone or transporting supplies to a remote colony or other critical missions...

Nitpick: The Khitomer accords led to the abolishment of the neutal zone.

The Federation had other GCS's at the time, and at the time, the Federation seemed to have a massive strength advantage, as the USS Phoenix was apparently carving them up.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-10-06 01:54pm

Wasn't one of them supposed to be part of the Earth defense fleet? It could be they were all (how many were there anyway?) tasked with defending critical locations.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-10-06 03:39pm

The only 2 Sovies i've ever heard of by name are The E-E and The Soverign. And even then the Soverign was only mentioned in Shatners Mirror Universe Trilogy.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-10-06 03:57pm

Committing suicide by the hundreds in orbit around Cardassia, I assume.

Seriously, I think the people above hit the nail on the head. Sovvies were a movie thing, and the Dominion War was a DS9 thing, so we didn't really hear about them in any of the Dominion War events.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-10-06 06:09pm

Its quite possibul that the Federation stopped or greatly slowed work on the class during the war, in favor of completing other vessels more quickly and repairing damaged ships.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-10-06 08:10pm

Cardassian information Minister wrote:Committing suicide by the hundreds in orbit around Cardassia, I assume.

bwahahahaha

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-10-06 08:21pm

Well according to the FX guys at Paramount, legaly they could not use the Sovereign model ILM made in DS9 episodes, so it was out. And the Foundation imaging CGI Sovereign (and off topic, the FC Sovereign was hela better) wasn't realy set up to go with the TV.So instead they just went crazy on the Galaxy class ships, which they had apparently at first planed to do with the Sovereigns.

If you want an in universe answer, bassed on the activities of the E-E during the Dominion war in Insurection, I'm guessing that the few Sovereigns were being used to put out brushfires over the rest of the Federation and Federation boarders. Their the most powerful ships meaning they have enough power to take care of anything but the most major military problems while the fleet is busy. They are second only to the Promethesus in speed so they can cover a lot of ground quickly when working by themselves and running around. They show the said problems that the Federation sill is concerned about them by sending one of their most powerful ships to take care of the problem. And they probably have very experenced crews who can perform a varity of missinos. Picards diplomatic skill for example, putting him where he is needed.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-10-06 08:53pm

Also, I think when you are trying to impress potential allies, you don't send a duct taped together Oberth. Sending your baddest bastard in the fleet with a captain known and respected throughout immediate space makes potential allies say "Wow, these guys have powerful ships! They might just win this one, let's get on board with them."

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-08 04:44am

I would say that the Soverign's were they best and most important ships, therfore they were probably being put in reserve to guard critical Federation targets against sneak attacks.

That said, space is big, even in Star Trek, and if there were only a few of these ships to fight along an entire border then it is possible we simply didn't see them because they were off fighting in other conflicts.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-10-08 12:10pm

The Kernel wrote:I would say that the Soverign's were they best and most important ships, therfore they were probably being put in reserve to guard critical Federation targets against sneak attacks.

That said, space is big, even in Star Trek, and if there were only a few of these ships to fight along an entire border then it is possible we simply didn't see them because they were off fighting in other conflicts.

How many Sovergeins were armed and ready when the Dominion war broke out ? My idea is that there were no more than a handful so there is not enough of them for border patrols. And since the Romulans and the Klingons were allies during the war the entire border does not need to be guarded.

Most likely Sovergeins were used in solo deep strike missions in Caradassian space due their superior speed and individual stregnth. With one of the fastest warp drives in the galaxy the Sovergein penetrate deep into Cardassian space quickly and strike strategic targets. Their massive firepower and shielding would allow them stay alive far behind enemy lines where they would be vastly outnumbered.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-10-08 01:11pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Also, I think when you are trying to impress potential allies, you don't send a duct taped together Oberth. Sending your baddest bastard in the fleet with a captain known and respected throughout immediate space makes potential allies say "Wow, these guys have powerful ships! They might just win this one, let's get on board with them."

this does fit with the in universe answer that Insurrection gives us...

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-10-08 01:33pm

CJvR wrote:IIRC the Feds have a talent for not using their best ships in war, prefering to rely on obsolete research vessels instead. The First mention of the Cardassians came after supposedly years of war during which the E-D, the Fed "flagship" didn't fire a single shot in anger. Most likely the Sovs were of analysing spacedust in the Klingon neutral zone or transporting supplies to a remote colony or other critical missions...

Hardly surprising since the E-D was commissioned after the war.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-10-09 07:20am

Hardly surprising since the E-D was commissioned after the war.

The E-D was commisioned in the 2360s and the Dominion war took place in the 2370s.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-10-09 08:29am

evilcat4000 wrote:
Hardly surprising since the E-D was commissioned after the war.
The E-D was commisioned in the 2360s and the Dominion war took place in the 2370s.

He talking abotu the cardassian war mention in early TNG this happened before TNG and before the e-d was commissioned

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-10-10 07:40am

He talking abotu the cardassian war mention in early TNG this happened before TNG and before the e-d was commissioned

Soryy about my misunderstanding.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-10-12 11:38pm

Chris OFarrell wrote:Well according to the FX guys at Paramount, legaly they could not use the Sovereign model ILM made in DS9 episodes, so it was out. And the Foundation imaging CGI Sovereign (and off topic, the FC Sovereign was hela better) wasn't realy set up to go with the TV.So instead they just went crazy on the Galaxy class ships, which they had apparently at first planed to do with the Sovereigns.

Where did you hear this? It doesn't really make sense as the Akira, Steamrunner, and Sabre classes also debuted on ST:FC, and were regular features in DS9. I don't see why you couldn't have the USS Sovereign make a easter egg appearance in the background of at least one fleet formation during the war arc.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-10-12 11:43pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:
Chris OFarrell wrote:Well according to the FX guys at Paramount, legaly they could not use the Sovereign model ILM made in DS9 episodes, so it was out. And the Foundation imaging CGI Sovereign (and off topic, the FC Sovereign was hela better) wasn't realy set up to go with the TV.So instead they just went crazy on the Galaxy class ships, which they had apparently at first planed to do with the Sovereigns.
Where did you hear this? It doesn't really make sense as the Akira, Steamrunner, and Sabre classes also debuted on ST:FC, and were regular features in DS9. I don't see why you couldn't have the USS Sovereign make a easter egg appearance in the background of at least one fleet formation during the war arc.

The Enterprise is very different from those other models.

Interesting thing is the copyright issue expanded into the games as well. Depending on the series a game was bassed on, they could only use certain ships. Back when the BOTF game was made they had to stick solely with ships shown in TNG. This happened to include DS9 (one TNG episode) and the Defiant (First Contact).

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-10-12 11:46pm

OK, I'm now officially confused. Star Trek is owned by Paramount right? Therefore, the design of the E-E, and all the other ships classes to grace the Trek universe are also owned by Paramount right? So therefore, there should be no ownership conflicts right? Where am I going wrong here?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-10-12 11:49pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:OK, I'm now officially confused. Star Trek is owned by Paramount right? Therefore, the design of the E-E, and all the other ships classes to grace the Trek universe are also owned by Paramount right? So therefore, there should be no ownership conflicts right? Where am I going wrong here?

Its fucked up. You have no disagreement here.

Alferd Packer · Post by **Alferd Packer** » 2003-10-13 12:23am

You could also look at it from a logistics standpoint. You're at war. You have X amount of industrial capacity. If you built the Sovreigns, your X goes a lot less further. Plus, they require a lot more crew to run properly, even if you're only making a barebones ship (no science labs, etc.)

Or, you could build Defiants/Steamrunners/Akiras/Sabres. The Defiants have the advantage of being incredibly tough, dedicated warships, and while not necessarily cheap (because they're such high performers), they can be manned by perhaps 40 people.

Now, based on the registry numbers we have for the other classes of ships, we can assume that they've been around for at least a decade previous (as an example, the Akiras where registries can bee seen are in the 6xxxx range, Galaxies are in the 7xxxx range, and Steamrunners are in the 5xxxxx area), so you know their designs are time-tested and reliable. Plus, they're not built with cutting-edge tech for the most part, so you probably not only have more parts of theirs on hand, but you can fabricate them easier.

The higher the performance level, the higher the cost per unit. Simply put, you'd get more bang for your buck with proven, easy-to-manufacture designs.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-10-13 07:45am

Or, you could build Defiants/Steamrunners/Akiras/Sabres. The Defiants have the advantage of being incredibly tough, dedicated warships, and while not necessarily cheap (because they're such high performers), they can be manned by perhaps 40 people.

A small crew complement can cause problems. A ship with too few crew would be easily boarded and it would not able to board other ships.