Gah! Borg are weaker than I thought.

[Raven]

Conceded on the Borg Queen. I suspected it too, but I needed a quote to prove it.

This may explain the tactical cube's offensive ineffectiveness against Voyager, but not the fact that it was taking damage from Voyager's weapons.

- In Q Who?, a cube can handle the E-D's firepower after it has adapted.
- In BOBW, a cube can handle the E-D's entire warp core output.
- In BOBW, a cube can handle a fleet of 40 Federation ships.

Are you saying that a scout ship armed with only phasers is more powerful than the Federation flagship, a Federation fleet, and the total power output of a GCS?


Also, Voyager was unable to damage the sphere in "Drone".

It didn't blow the ship up, in fact it worked perfectly. Therefore there's no reason to assume they couldn't do it again if necessary, especially with time to study the method further. Preparing to go against Borg vessels would imply the Voyager ship being prepard for such encounters...when they expect them.

1. It required taking the warp drive off line
2. It required extra preparation
3. B'Elanna didn't understand how it worked
4. It's dangerous
5. They only had to maintain it for a very short time to enter the supernova.

Irrelevent. If my neighbor throws out a computer upgrade, are we then to assume I will do the same thing?

If your neighbor throws out a device which increases his CPU performance, that's dumb.
If you keep an upgrade that temporarily increases your clock speed, which someone else (who you don't really trust) performed, which you don't know how it works, which is a fire hazard, then that's dumbER.

Your Chakotay example merely proves that Voyager did keep Borg upgrades. Are we going to assume those are the only ones they kept simply because he didn't bring up others? What if they kept alot of the technolgoy for further study, for future implemetation?(more on that later)

Chakotay mentioned something insignificant like "the power couplings on deck 8".
If they really kept them, why didn't he mention something like "we now have Borg regenerative armor and multiphasic shielding... take THAT DQ races!!"?

Again, irrelevent since you don't know the comparison value of a sphere against a typical "non-armored" cube. Must we automatically assume it would do better? Perhaps spheres are compact, powerful Borg ships, even compared to Borg cubes(which are mostly empty space). One sphere withstood an attack by 18+ Federation vessels in STVOY "Endgme". Not bad considering it's only a fraction of the size of a cube.

The Federation attack on the sphere was pathetic. A few ships firing their phasers is not an excessively impressive assault, considering against previous Borg cubes 39 ships was useless; 1E19 watts (more than the effective firepower of DS9) was useless; only several hundred Federation ships in an extended engagement were able to do any damage.

Cube: can take 39 ships, or 1E19 watts... but not several hundred ships
Sphere: can take 18 ships... upper limit unknown

[Sarevok]

Chakotay mentioned something insignificant like "the power couplings on deck 8".
If they really kept them, why didn't he mention something like "we now have Borg regenerative armor and multiphasic shielding... take THAT DQ races!!"?

I agree. Voyger could not even use the basic transwarp drive found on Borg vessels. It is laughable to assume that she could use the same weapons technology and adaptive shields as the highly advanced Borg Cubes

[Robert Walper]

Voyger could not even use the basic transwarp drive found on Borg vessels.

Actually, Voyager can and has used Borg transwarp (ref STVOY "Dark Frontier"). They merely lack the resources to build a transwarp coil themselves. But they have stolen one, and got at least 200 lightyear out of it before it burned out(either coil limitation or technology incompatability). Ability to build technology does not hinder one's ability to use technology. Rough analogy would be like handing a caveman a gun.

It is laughable to assume that she could use the same weapons technology and adaptive shields as the highly advanced Borg Cubes.

Weapons upgrades I'm not certain about. But Borg shielding, they have used, and used against the Borg Taatical cube in STVOY "Unimatrix Zero", the very episode under discussion.

[Isolder74]

Actually, Voyager can and has used Borg transwarp (ref STVOY "Dark Frontier"). They merely lack the resources to build a transwarp coil themselves. But they have stolen one, and got at least 200 lightyear out of it before it burned out(either coil limitation or technology incompatability). Ability to build technology does not hinder one's ability to use technology. Rough analogy would be like handing a caveman a gun.

A bettrer analogy would be handing a cave man a laptop. Any fool can figure out, pull this thingy and person pointed at dies! Fear me and my magic killing stick! O rifle resembles a spear enough for the caveman to naturally point it in the tright direction.

[Robert Walper]

Conceded on the Borg Queen. I suspected it too, but I needed a quote to prove it.

One arguement down then.

This may explain the tactical cube's offensive ineffectiveness against Voyager, but not the fact that it was taking damage from Voyager's weapons.

- In Q Who?, a cube can handle the E-D's firepower after it has adapted.

Strong reminder about Borg adaptation, and the fact Starfleet adapts their weapons as well to bypass Borg shielding since they lack the capability to overwhelm it.

- In BOBW, a cube can handle the E-D's entire warp core output.

Thus proving the Enterprise's entire offensive weaponry supply is incapable of overwhelming the cube's shield system, since the deflector weapon was stated to direct more energy in that single blast then their all weapons systems combined ever could.

- In BOBW, a cube can handle a fleet of 40 Federation ships.

Given visual evidence and dialogue, even forty Federation ships lack the power to overwhelm a cube's shielding system, once adapated. Again, I stress the importance of adapation in this case.

Borg adaptation must have limits. Let's assume the Borg cube can have every possible frequency and modulation the Federation can come up with(I actually think this is quite possible). Does this mean their shield system can cover every possible frequency or modulation at once? Of course not...and that's exactly why the E-D was able to break the Borg's tractor beam in BOBW with phaser strikes, despite your agreement and evidence the E-D is no match for the shield output of the cube. As Commander Shelby said to Data "Keep changing phaser rotation, keep them guessing." And they managed to break free just long enough to escape into the nebula. They didn't "overwhelm" or significantly hinder the cube's shields, they bypassed them. And that is exactly what Voyager would do against the Borg, with the aid of Seven of Nine telling them the best method of doing this. The Tactical cube's shields overall were just fine, it was Voyager's and the sphere's ability to bypass the shielding that allowed them to target shield generators and beam their people out of there.

Are you saying that a scout ship armed with only phasers

Note: Voyager does have torpedo payloads as well, and did use them against the Tactical cube.

is more powerful than the Federation flagship, a Federation fleet, and the total power output of a GCS?

Not at all. They merely have a drone onboard wtih twenty years experience with the Collective and knowledge of how the Borg adapt to attacks. This is made plainly clear in STVOY "Dark frontier". Quote:

Borg Queen: "Thirty nine vessels are converging on our position. They are firing phasing energy pulses. Our shields have failed. How do you suggest we adapt?"
Seven: "Triaxilate our shield geometry to absorb their energy pulses."
Borg Queen: "We were thinking the exact same thing. Adapatation complete. They are no longer a threat."

Therefore by example we have proof Seven knows exactly how the Borg adapt to attacks. Therefore, she would also know what weaknesses to exploit against such adaptations. And Starfleet has already shown the capability to have some success in bypassing Borg shielding. With Seven's help, is it really so hard to imagine Voyager would be able to do this?

Also, Voyager was unable to damage the sphere in "Drone".

They fired one phaser shot. Their resistance factor there was extremely pitiful. And Voyager didn't have Borg shielding then either, so upgrades to their weapon systems against the Borg was undoubtably not present either. One tried to upgrade the phasers, but he lacked experience with the Collective and how they adapt to attacks, so it's hardly surprising his upgrade failed.

It didn't blow the ship up, in fact it worked perfectly. Therefore there's no reason to assume they couldn't do it again if necessary, especially with time to study the method further. Preparing to go against Borg vessels would imply the Voyager ship being prepard for such encounters...when they expect them.

1. It required taking the warp drive off line
2. It required extra preparation
3. B'Elanna didn't understand how it worked
4. It's dangerous
5. They only had to maintain it for a very short time to enter the supernova.

We'll dismiss this arguement for the time being. However, the point still stands that Voyager had Borg shielding active during the conflict. Which would easily explain why certain Borg weapon systems might be ineffective against such shielding, and we have sufficient reason to believe the Tactical cube held it's firepower in check.

The Federation attack on the sphere was pathetic. A few ships firing their phasers

Torpedoes were fired as well.

is not an excessively impressive assault, considering against previous Borg cubes 39 ships was useless; 1E19 watts (more than the effective firepower of DS9) was useless; only several hundred Federation ships in an extended engagement were able to do any damage.

I'll take it then you conceed the point you cannot justify a Tactical cube being weak since it didn't obliterate a sphere, since you do not know how effective a typical cube would be against a sphere either.

On a side note, while I suspect(and agree with you) that starfleet did deploy hundreds of vessels against the cube in FC, your statement is purely an opinion. We have no direct evidence starfleet amassed a fleet of hundreds against the cube. We are limited to reasonable speculation on that point(I know, since I try to push for the acceptance of hundreds of Starfleet vessels against that particular cube. ).

Cube: can take 39 ships, or 1E19 watts... but not several hundred ships

Since we do not know what a cube's upper limit of Federation targets is, you cannot state a cube is incapable of taking on several hundred Federation ships. We know the cube had some damage in FC, but how many Federation ships was required to do this is unknown. Given your own opinion, hundreds were involved and they couldn't stop the cube from entering Earth orbit. Picard saved the day there, and not a moment to soon in my opinion.

Sphere: can take 18 ships... upper limit unknown

Agreed.

[Robert Walper]

Actually, Voyager can and has used Borg transwarp (ref STVOY "Dark Frontier"). They merely lack the resources to build a transwarp coil themselves. But they have stolen one, and got at least 200 lightyear out of it before it burned out(either coil limitation or technology incompatability). Ability to build technology does not hinder one's ability to use technology. Rough analogy would be like handing a caveman a gun.

A bettrer analogy would be handing a cave man a laptop. Any fool can figure out, pull this thingy and person pointed at dies! Fear me and my magic killing stick! O rifle resembles a spear enough for the caveman to naturally point it in the tright direction.

Refining the analogy aside, you must conceed the point Voyager can and has used Borg Transwarp technology. They lack the ability to build it, not use it.

[Sarevok]

ctually, Voyager can and has used Borg transwarp (ref STVOY "Dark Frontier"). They merely lack the resources to build a transwarp coil themselves. But they have stolen one, and got at least 200 lightyear out of it before it burned out(either coil limitation or technology incompatability). Ability to build technology does not hinder one's ability to use technology. Rough analogy would be like handing a caveman a gun.

When Seven of Nine first came to Voyger she tried to install a Transwarp drive. Voyger was nearly destroyed when she tried to use it. BTW I am realy confused about this Transwarp / Warp thing. Sometimes Transwarp looks like a tunnel like B5 hyperspace other times it is like warp.

[Robert Walper]

When Seven of Nine first came to Voyger she tried to install a Transwarp drive. Voyger was nearly destroyed when she tried to use it.

Did Seven of Nine have a Borg transwarp coil on hand? Not that I recall, therefore this point is irrelevent. We have seen Voyager use Transwarp when in possesson of a Transwarp coil. Therefore they can use Transwarp, but cannot build the technological basis of Transwarp.

BTW I am realy confused about this Transwarp / Warp thing. Sometimes Transwarp looks like a tunnel like B5 hyperspace other times it is like warp.

There seems to be two systems of Transwarp the Borg utilize. One is a established conduits which ships can use, including non Borg ones. The other would appear to be the Transwarp coil technology, which seems to build a conduit instantanously in front and behind a ship using the coil. The Delta Flyer using a Transwarp coil covered 200 lightyears in seconds(ref: STVOY "Dark Frontier"). Transwarp is bloodly fast, on par with hyperspace I daresay, even easily surpassing it in some instances(ref: STVOY "Endgame").

[Sarevok]

Did Seven of Nine have a Borg transwarp coil on hand? Not that I recall, therefore this point is irrelevent. We have seen Voyager use Transwarp when in possesson of a Transwarp coil. Therefore they can use Transwarp, but cannot build the technological basis of Transwarp.

My idea is that Voyger is incomatible with the type of transwarp that Borg Cubes use.

[Robert Walper]

Did Seven of Nine have a Borg transwarp coil on hand? Not that I recall, therefore this point is irrelevent. We have seen Voyager use Transwarp when in possesson of a Transwarp coil. Therefore they can use Transwarp, but cannot build the technological basis of Transwarp.

My idea is that Voyger is incomatible with the type of transwarp that Borg Cubes use.

Present your evidence that a Borg cube's Transwarp technology is any different than a Sphere's Transwarp technology(Being a self declared Borg enclycopedia, I can think of no such evidence). Seven of Nine's inability to build a coil with Voyager's limited technology and infrastructure base is irrelevent. She was able to easily have the crew install one once they stole one.

My conclusion based upon available evidence is that all Borg vessels use coils as their Transwarp technological basis. Voyager can and has used such technology when they have it.

[Darth Fanboy]

Deosnt change teh fact that the Borg repeatedly failed to destroy Voyager, which would have been the only saving grace of both the Borg, and Voyager as a series.

[Robert Walper]

Deosnt change teh fact that the Borg repeatedly failed to destroy Voyager, which would have been the only saving grace of both the Borg, and Voyager as a series.

You're confusing "fail" with "evidence convincingly shows the Borg held themselves in check when engaging Voyager". Refer to Raven's and my posts for clarification.

[Darth Fanboy]

Hey whatever you want to think of when you're pulling your pud is fine with me, the Borg have still been watered down more than a gas station soda fountain.

[Sarevok]

Present your evidence that a Borg cube's Transwarp technology is any different than a Sphere's Transwarp technology(Being a self declared Borg enclycopedia, I can think of no such evidence). Seven of Nine's inability to build a coil with Voyager's limited technology and infrastructure base is irrelevent. She was able to easily have the crew install one once they stole one.

My conclusion based upon available evidence is that all Borg vessels use coils as their Transwarp technological basis. Voyager can and has used such technology when they have it.

You seem to be an expert on the Borg. So what do you think about transwarp drives and Voyger ?

[Robert Walper]

You seem to be an expert on the Borg.

Well, I'd like to think so. However, blowing my own horn proves nothing. Hopefully, objective veiwers of what arguements I make for the Borg consider them reasonable and worthy of consideration. I'm not the only Borg fan here, though. I know Sean Robertson and myself share an interest in them. We've had a few excellent discussions. Ted Collins has also been an invaluable debater as well. He convinced me to virtually give up the Borg KE shielding arguements.

So what do you think about transwarp drives and Voyger ?

I actually don't know what the big fuss about Voyager is(well, maybe I do, I just think the whining about it is rather excesive. If you don't like it, don't watch it). I liked alot of the episodes, although I didn't follow it nearly as closely as TNG(DS9 I never really watched until the Dominion war started up). The main attention grabber in Voyager is the Borg of course, and I find it an invalueable source of Borg facts. Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think the Borg were portrayed that badly in Voyager. From TNG, everyone seemed to assume the Borg were an invincible enemy with no limits. Thus, when we see limitations they have, everyone got pissed off. I intent to create a website focusing on the Borg, with a section on Borg/Imperial comparisons eventually.

As to Borg transwarp, I've seen evidence that indicates Transwarp drive is extremely fast. In STVOY "Dark Frontier", 200 lightyears is covered in seconds by the Delta Flyer with one Transwarp coil. Transwarp can also change direction during flight, giving it an edge over hyperspace. FTL factor comprisons I'm still working on, however, I think hyperspace's advantage is marginal at best on a ship per ship level. The Borg's Transwarp hub network actually outclasses Hyperspace easily, deploying vessels throughout the Milkyway in minutes. Comparing the Borg Collective to the Empire is my ultimate goal. Whether the Borg could win or just put up a decent fight is still undetermined by myself. So far, I'm completely convinced the Empire would mop the floor with the Federation. And in regards to the Borg, if they threw even a minor fleet of cubes(like the fifteen Voyager encountered in STVOY "Scorpion") against the Federation, I think they mop the floor with the Federation as well. However, before I begin comparing the Borg and the Empire, it's necessary for me to determine their capabilities, strengths and limitations first. Until I've done that to my satisfaction, I try to avoid routinely making any Borg/Imperial comparisons.

[Robert Walper]

Hey whatever you want to think of when you're pulling your pud is fine with me,

Hey, I like the Borg, but not that much. Might make an exception with Seven of Nine though...

the Borg have still been watered down more than a gas station soda fountain.

Everyone has their own opinion. However, I base mine upon evidence and reasonable speculation(along with a genuine like of the Borg). Personally, I think alot of people here just hate Voyager and the Borg in general, so try to make them out in the worst light possible. A perfect example being Mike Wong convinced Borg cube volume(which is a great deal of empy space) was a physcological warfare design(trying to imply the Borg consider themselves so weak they try to scare their enemies with big ships), as opposed to massive hangers to capture and assimilate ships, which the evidence has obviously and repeatedly indicated.

[Raven]

As to Borg transwarp, I've seen evidence that indicates Transwarp drive is extremely fast. In STVOY "Dark Frontier", 200 lightyears is covered in seconds by the Delta Flyer with one Transwarp coil. Transwarp can also change direction during flight, giving it an edge over hyperspace. FTL factor comprisons I'm still working on, however, I think hyperspace's advantage is marginal at best on a ship per ship level. The Borg's Transwarp hub network actually outclasses Hyperspace easily, deploying vessels throughout the Milkyway in minutes.

Fixed transwarp conduits, as seen in Descent:

They appear to be like a highway - it must be constructed first, but once it's done, any ship can use it without requiring special technology.
It's somewhat like an artificial wormhole, with the advantage of security and secrecy.
The Enterprise had no way of detecting it without knowing what to look for. Even after knowing what to look for, they couldn't detect the conduit - they could only fly to its general location and try the "open" signal.
However, the security isn't very good. Simply watching another ship enter the conduit is sufficient to know how to do it yourself.

According to Geordi, it's "at least 20 times faster than faster than our maximum warp".

20 times faster than the Enterprise's 3000c would be 60,000c.

But after the E-D actually enters the conduit, Riker says they traveled 65 light years. At 60,000c, that's a nearly 24 hour trip.
If I remember the episode right, they weren't in the conduit for more than a few minutes, with no scene breaks either.

If they had a transit time of 1 minute, that's 950,000c.

Either:
- our perception of time in that scene was distorted - unlikely, since there were no scene breaks, and the E-D was on a timetable rescue Data

- Geordi was wrong... the conduit is faster than 20x the Enterprise's speed

- Riker was wrong... they travelled less than 65 light years

Of these, Geordi was wrong seems to be the most plausible. He'd never seen a transwarp conduit before, and was only making a guess at how fast they'd go in it.
Riker, dumbass that he is, is merely reading from an instrument panel. It's more likely that Geordi was wrong in his guess than Riker reading off a screen.


Transwarp drive, as seen in Dark Frontier, etc.:

Borg ships have a device that allows them to create their own transwarp conduits. The advantage of this is not being limited by the lack of constructed Descent-style conduits in a particular location.
The drawback is lower speed.
There doesn't seem to be huge power requirements, since even the probe Voyager defeated had one, and Voyager herself could use it when the crew captured one.

- According to Seven, transwarp is similar to Quantum Slipstream, which could get Voyager home in 3 months. (Hope and Fear)

- Seven's parents, following the Borg cube, found themselves in the Delta quadrant in a period of weeks or months. (The cube, however was not necessarily flying a straight path.) This also shows that a large ship can open a transwarp conduit for another ship.
This is actually a bad thing. Since even the smallest Borg ships have transwarp drives, this effect is only useful for recovering damaged ships. But this allows cloaked enemy ships to follow you around if you can't detect them.

- In Dark Frontier, the Delta Flyer travels 200 LY in an unknown amount of time.

- At the end of Dark Frontier, Voyager used the captured coil to travel 10,000 LY in an unspecified but relatively short period of time.

50,000 LY in 3 months is 200,000c.


Transwarp Hub, as seen in Endgame:

Now this one's tricky.
We don't know how long Voyager spent in the conduit, and there were numerous scene breaks between entering the hub and exiting near Earth.

According to Tuvok, they only have ten seconds to escape the hub before dying in a firey explosion, Stravo style.
But the screen-time of Voyager's bridge alone is more than ten seconds, and the extra scenes with Admiral Janeway, the Borg Queen, and Starfleet Command all add unknown amounts of travel time.

Tuvok's 10 second quite is surely wrong... the real time is somewhere above that, possibly somewhere around a few minutes.

If we take Tuvok literally, that's 40 billion c.
If Voyager took 5 minutes, that's 1.3 billion c.


Transwarp Router:

It wasn't compatible with the Comic Book Guy's token ring Ethernet LAN configuration, so Bill Gates bought it out under the Borg.
He took it back to Earth to handle Microsoft's network traffic, but it became obsolete 2 days after he returned with it.

[Crazedwraith]

Geordi doesn't have to be wrong. if he said :"at least..." It could have be a lot lot faster than 20x max.warp and geordi just did a rough estimate and was way to low.

[Robert Walper]

Fixed transwarp conduits, as seen in Descent:

They appear to be like a highway - it must be constructed first, but once it's done, any ship can use it without requiring special technology.

You're going to have to define "without special technology". That episode made it abundantly clear some type of technology was required to open the conduit. Just because the Enterprise could do it, doesn't mean any ship could. The Enterprise can beam a person down to the surface of a planet. Because it an do so, would an Imperial ship be able to do so? Obviously not. All we know is that the Federation flagship(and likely other starfleet vessels) possess the technology basis to activate a Borg Transwarp conduit.

It's somewhat like an artificial wormhole, with the advantage of security and secrecy.
The Enterprise had no way of detecting it without knowing what to look for. Even after knowing what to look for, they couldn't detect the conduit - they could only fly to its general location and try the "open" signal.

Agreed. But just because they could do it doesn't mean any ship, like an Imperial one, could.

However, the security isn't very good. Simply watching another ship enter the conduit is sufficient to know how to do it yourself.

Assuming one has sensors sophisticated enough to detect what happened, and have the technological basis to replicate what happened.

According to Geordi, it's "at least 20 times faster than faster than our maximum warp".

20 times faster than the Enterprise's 3000c would be 60,000c.

But after the E-D actually enters the conduit, Riker says they traveled 65 light years. At 60,000c, that's a nearly 24 hour trip.
If I remember the episode right, they weren't in the conduit for more than a few minutes, with no scene breaks either.

Geordi siad "at least 20 times" maximum warp. That establishes no upper limit, thus a greater speed is of no surprise.

If they had a transit time of 1 minute, that's 950,000c.

Transit time was around 20-30 seconds if I recall correctly. That's actually more around 1.9 million C.

Either:
- our perception of time in that scene was distorted - unlikely, since there were no scene breaks, and the E-D was on a timetable rescue Data

Agreed.

- Geordi was wrong... the conduit is faster than 20x the Enterprise's speed

Since he established a lower limit only, he was not wrong, he was right.

- Riker was wrong... they travelled less than 65 light years

Unlikely in my opinion. Any moron can read a display panel.

Transwarp drive, as seen in Dark Frontier, etc.:

Borg ships have a device that allows them to create their own transwarp conduits. The advantage of this is not being limited by the lack of constructed Descent-style conduits in a particular location.
The drawback is lower speed.

Actually, the Delta Flyer travelled 200 lightyears in under a minute using a Transwarp coil(roughly around 30 seconds). That's actually much faster than the Descent example.

There doesn't seem to be huge power requirements, since even the probe Voyager defeated had one, and Voyager herself could use it when the crew captured one.

Agreed.

- According to Seven, transwarp is similar to Quantum Slipstream, which could get Voyager home in 3 months. (Hope and Fear)

Visually identical actually. And the "3 month trip" was a quote by the admiral in a falsified message. Objective observation when the crew fired up the Dautless's engines made the ship travel over 15 lightyears in less than a minute(again, that took place also around 30 seconds, must be a Trek thing ).

- Seven's parents, following the Borg cube, found themselves in the Delta quadrant in a period of weeks or months.

Inaccurate statement. They tracked the Borg cube for weeks/months. However, their travel time when they entered the conduit is completely unknown. All we know is that the father quoted in his log they had entered a conduit with the cube and ended up in the Delta Quadrant. Time elapsed during that trip was not specified.

(The cube, however was not necessarily flying a straight path.)

Agreed. A straight path isn't required even during Transwarp itself.

This also shows that a large ship can open a transwarp conduit for another ship.

Assuming cooperation on that ships part, or that the ship doesn't consider the other a threat. The Hanson's small scout vessel wasn't a threat to the cube, so the cube ignored it. The Hansons specified this when the cube didn't attack them.

This is actually a bad thing. Since even the smallest Borg ships have transwarp drives, this effect is only useful for recovering damaged ships. But this allows cloaked enemy ships to follow you around if you can't detect them.

- In Dark Frontier, the Delta Flyer travels 200 LY in an unknown amount of time.

Incorrect. Total distance travelled by the Delta Flyer is unknown. They covered 200 lightyears in a few seconds when detecting Seven's signal. Quote:

Doctor: "I'm detecting Seven cordical node."
Janeway: "It's about 200 lightyears bearing <insert coodinates here>. Alter course and prepare to drop out of transwarp."

They then popped into real space outside the Unicomplex. Given the Delta Flyer covered those 200 lightyears in such a short time, and that the search was taking significant time, it's realistic to assume the Delta Flyer covered a lot more distance. Several thousand lightyears at least isn't out of the question.

- At the end of Dark Frontier, Voyager used the captured coil to travel 10,000 LY in an unspecified but relatively short period of time.

My memory is rusty on that one.

Transwarp Hub, as seen in Endgame:

Now this one's tricky.
We don't know how long Voyager spent in the conduit, and there were numerous scene breaks between entering the hub and exiting near Earth.

According to Tuvok, they only have ten seconds to escape the hub before dying in a firey explosion, Stravo style.
But the screen-time of Voyager's bridge alone is more than ten seconds, and the extra scenes with Admiral Janeway, the Borg Queen, and Starfleet Command all add unknown amounts of travel time.

Tuvok's 10 second quite is surely wrong... the real time is somewhere above that, possibly somewhere around a few minutes.

If we take Tuvok literally, that's 40 billion c.
If Voyager took 5 minutes, that's 1.3 billion c.

I must be tired. Memory is failing me on this episode. One of the reasons I need to make up my Borg website. Would go into detail on Transwarp speeds, etc.

[Darth Fanboy]

Everyone has their own opinion. However, I base mine upon evidence and reasonable speculation(along with a genuine like of the Borg). Personally, I think alot of people here just hate Voyager and the Borg in general, so try to make them out in the worst light possible. A perfect example being Mike Wong convinced Borg cube volume(which is a great deal of empy space) was a physcological warfare design(trying to imply the Borg consider themselves so weak they try to scare their enemies with big ships), as opposed to massive hangers to capture and assimilate ships, which the evidence has obviously and repeatedly indicated.

Yet you ignore Evidence and Speculation when it comes to your opinion on the Empire vs. Borg debate.

addendum:

I am enjoying the fuzzyness of your memory at this point, when you position seems to be in doubt.

[Robert Walper]

Yet you ignore Evidence and Speculation when it comes to your opinion on the Empire vs. Borg debate.

Provide an example of me ignoring Borg/Imperial comparison evidence. Despite me specifically stating earlier I try to avoid routinely comparing the Borg and Empire, since I consider my knowledge of the Borg insufficent to make a valid comparison.

Little hint for you: Comparing Hyperdrive to Transwarp is not a direct Borg/Imperial comparison. Hyperdrive is just a technology the Empire employs, along with countless other forces in the SW galaxy. A comparison between the Borg and Empire would require comparisons on all fronts, like fleet sizes, firepower, industrial capacity, manpower, etc, etc. Since I've made no such wide spectrum comparisons in a long while(many months if I'm not mistaken), you're either lying or mistaken. Even if I "proved" Transwarp was superior to Hyperdrive, this does not make a Borg victory or Imperial loss a plausible scenario.

addendum:

I am enjoying the fuzzyness of your memory at this point, when you position seems to be in doubt.

Exactly what position of mine is in doubt? Raven's last post and my response was mostly in agreement, with some minor clarifications on my part.

Are you suggesting I should just make claims on half remembered episodes? I'm not going to make counter claims unless I'm sure I'm remembering the episodes in question correctly. Just because my sig makes the claim I'm a Borg encyclopedia, doesn't mean I consider myself infallible or always correct about the Borg.

[Sarevok]

Deosnt change teh fact that the Borg repeatedly failed to destroy Voyager, which would have been the only saving grace of both the Borg, and Voyager as a series.

Voyger should not have survived any of their encounters with the Borg if we go by the TNG Borg rules.