First Contact opening scene battle ship count?

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-09-28 07:16am

Does anyone know how many Feddies ships were involved in the battle with the Borg cube?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-09-28 09:56am

39 is the number I usually here, the same number that were at Wolf 359. I understand the novel says that they were present at Earth for a fleet display parade to show off their force before going off to fight the Dominion.

I have also heard people claim it was a running battle with over 300 ships, but I have zero clue where that number came from

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-09-28 11:33am

Ender wrote:39 is the number I usually here, the same number that were at Wolf 359. I understand the novel says that they were present at Earth for a fleet display parade to show off their force before going off to fight the Dominion.

I have also heard people claim it was a running battle with over 300 ships, but I have zero clue where that number came from

Concerning the 39 ship parade, that's possible. I only wonder if they'd have enough time to get from Earth to this "Typhon Sector" where the cube was first engaged, then back to Earth again (or if other ships nearby joined in on the fun).

As far as the 300 ships thing goes, I think that might come from the novelization, but I've never seen it so I'm not sure

For all I know, people could've simply pulled that no. out of thin air.

Subjectively, I'd guess the cube fought more than 40 ships en route to Earth, but 300?! That sounds awfully high to me. It's important to keep in mind that, though the "BoBW" cube did dust 39 ships, that included a lot of rather dinky designs, like Oberth-class starships. More combat-oriented ships might fare better, especially if the fleet coordinated its attack better than at Wolf 359.

I liked "FC" overall, but seeing all of a few minutes of the battle was...cheap.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-09-28 03:04pm

Well, the people I know who guessed 300 guessimated. I'm guessing a bit less. After all, IIRC, the greatest number of ships the Federation had lost in a single engagement were, what, 96, to the Dominion. By the time the Borg cube reached Earth, there weren't hundreds of ships buzzing around. If they started with hundreds of ships and the Borg cube hadn't destroyed them, where were they?

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-09-28 04:57pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Well, the people I know who guessed 300 guessimated. I'm guessing a bit less. After all, IIRC, the greatest number of ships the Federation had lost in a single engagement were, what, 96, to the Dominion. By the time the Borg cube reached Earth, there weren't hundreds of ships buzzing around. If they started with hundreds of ships and the Borg cube hadn't destroyed them, where were they?

The ships we saw were probably not part of the original fleet that engaged the Borg. Remember, in Best of Both Worlds, the E-D (fastest starship in the fleet) was unable to maintain Warp 9.6 long enough to keep pace with the Borg to Wolf 359. It's entirely possible (in my opinion probable) that different elements of Starfleet have been engaged with the Borg along their course as other starships were forced to fall behind.

Laird · Post by **Laird** » 2003-09-28 04:57pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Well, the people I know who guessed 300 guessimated. I'm guessing a bit less. After all, IIRC, the greatest number of ships the Federation had lost in a single engagement were, what, 96, to the Dominion. By the time the Borg cube reached Earth, there weren't hundreds of ships buzzing around. If they started with hundreds of ships and the Borg cube hadn't destroyed them, where were they?

Destroyed? adrift? etc...?

As for the fleet in orbit,I heard they came from utopia planitia fleet yards,Half of them were just barely functioning.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-28 05:32pm

Ender wrote: I have also heard people claim it was a running battle with over 300 ships, but I have zero clue where that number came from

Its from the novel

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-09-28 11:07pm

And don't forget two YT-1300 freighters!

Laird · Post by **Laird** » 2003-09-29 03:38am

Lord Poe wrote:And don't forget two YT-1300 freighters!

Only canon if you have the DVD with the deleted scenes.(Well deleted ships anyways.)

*Pats his newly bought FC DVD.*

TurboPhaser · Post by **TurboPhaser** » 2003-09-29 07:58am

Lord Poe wrote:And don't forget two YT-1300 freighters!

Huh? Please explain.

I dont have the DVD. (Yet)

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-09-29 08:47am

Star wars ships in Star Trek ? What were the FX people thinking ?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-29 08:49am

It's called an "in-joke." The same reason the Enterprise is in TPM and an X-wing and TIE fighter are in AOTC.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-09-29 08:55am

I heard ETs were in TPM senate scene. Is it true ?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-29 09:02am

Yes. The only way you could miss them is if you were blind.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-09-29 09:08am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Yes. The only way you could miss them is if you were blind.

Just making sure I was not the only one thinking that.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2003-09-29 11:26am

Sir Sirius wrote:Does anyone know how many Feddies ships were involved in the battle with the Borg cube?

A solid number is unavailable. If one were to simply count the ships one sees, you might get a number around twenty. This seems rather absurd giving a cube can obliterate forty Fed ships without apparently breaking a sweat in BOBW. The novelization says around three hundred engaged the cube, but it's non-canon and I disard that number out of hand(unfortunately).

Personally, I'd like to gather all the battle scenes from the movie and find out how many ships were destroyed in the battle scenes we do see(I saw at least three ships destroyed by the cube in the extremely limited visuals we got). This would give us a rough estimate of how many ships the cube was taking out on a per time basis. Using that figure, we might be able to extrapolate a rough number of ships the cube may have engaged, taking into account it was apparently moderately damaged at the point we started seeing any visuals at all.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-29 11:31am

It may not neccesarily need to be substantially more than in BOBW because of the massive refit programs Starfleet was carrying out over the decade making more combat capable ships and weapons that could hurt the Borg like quantum torpedoes.

Look at the Ent-E and the way it seemingly shrugs off the Borg weapons during the battle.

Keeping that in mind, they may not have needed that many starships to hurt the Borg cube.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-09-29 11:46am

Robert Walper wrote:Personally, I'd like to gather all the battle scenes from the movie and find out how many ships were destroyed in the battle scenes we do see(I saw at least three ships destroyed by the cube in the extremely limited visuals we got). This would give us a rough estimate of how many ships the cube was taking out on a per time basis. Using that figure, we might be able to extrapolate a rough number of ships the cube may have engaged, taking into account it was apparently moderately damaged at the point we started seeing any visuals at all.

That doesn't seem to be a very exact way to do it. Do you think that battle field casualties happen at an even rate? Besides, we don't even know how much time elapsed from when the battle first started and when it reached Earth, or if it was continuous or not.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2003-09-29 11:59am

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:Personally, I'd like to gather all the battle scenes from the movie and find out how many ships were destroyed in the battle scenes we do see(I saw at least three ships destroyed by the cube in the extremely limited visuals we got). This would give us a rough estimate of how many ships the cube was taking out on a per time basis. Using that figure, we might be able to extrapolate a rough number of ships the cube may have engaged, taking into account it was apparently moderately damaged at the point we started seeing any visuals at all.
That doesn't seem to be a very exact way to do it.

This of course would in no way be an exact method. I did specify this would be a rough estimate, along with alot of "if this = then this" rationalizing.

Do you think that battle field casualties happen at an even rate?

Most certainly not. However, even rough ratios can be established with sufficient information on hand. A car accident does not happen every five minutes on the clock, but statistically, the ratio is about right. I'm merely thinking of applying the same reasoning with the FC battle, based upon pre determined variables, like "if the battle lasted this long based upon Data's estimate of how long it would take the Enterprise to reach the battle zone", etc.

Besides, we don't even know how much time elapsed from when the battle first started and when it reached Earth, or if it was continuous or not.

Without a doubt, there are many factors to consider. However, as I said, I did not imply this would be a exact or precise calculation. Merely a rough guestimate.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-09-29 08:28pm

Its realy hard to say.

I mean on one hand ships fighting the Cube are much newer. On the other hand, they were clearly engaged in a running battle from the Typhod sector to Earth. I mean on one hand we can only count something around 20 ships at Earth.

But even those ships were falling at a preaty constent rate. The Defiant brought it so did a pair of Akiras, a Sabre and a couple of others within a minuite. Also note that within a few seconds of the ships first volley against the Cube the fleet had started loosing ships. The Presence of the Defiant, one of the slower capital ships at Earth speaks of a running battle from the boarder on in with the Cube. At the rate Starfleet was loosing ships and assuming it was a couple of hours journy from the entry point to Earth (not an unreasnoable assumption) a fleet of 300 ships isn't unreasnoable. Also note that they had hit it with enough firepower to cause some extensive damage to the ships outer hull.

Realy an exact count is hard to get. Its almost certianly far above the 20 ships we saw at Earth, but the novel is the only solid number we have.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2003-09-29 08:59pm

Chris, you forget that by the time it reached Earth, the cube was having problems. Its weapons were likely not operating at the same level as they were at the inital exchange. Given Borg speeds, these are likely not the same ships.

Of course, the cube did impulse its way to Earth, and the first cube took ages to cross the few light years to from Wolf 359. Maybe running from the E-D screwed the cubes power reserves and they had to go slower, who knows.

Also, the Feds engaged the Borg in the 'Typhon sector'. Is this the 'Typhon Expanse'? Thats in some episode, which'd let us find out how far away it is.

How could the Feds engage the Borg if they were at transwarp? Obviously they were going slower than the extreme speeds displayed by the orignal cube. Could this explain why the E-E had enough time to return to Earth?

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-09-30 11:14am

Stark wrote:Chris, you forget that by the time it reached Earth, the cube was having problems. Its weapons were likely not operating at the same level as they were at the inital exchange. Given Borg speeds, these are likely not the same ships.

They were still easily mulching through Starfleet ships. The cube was having problems but its very hard to quantify eactly how much that diminished its combat effectivness. Data said the outer hull had taken heavy damage. Fine but it didn't appear to mean it was shooting less weapons. They were appearing to constently keep getting more guns to blast at the Federation fleet even though the Federation kept taregeting the guns. Given a cubes (well until Voyager anyway) decentalised design, simply pelting the surface while leaving the vast amount of interior stuff untouched may do little to hamper a cubes combat effectivness. The power fluctuations were not cutting power to the guns. Though thye may well have caused the shields to go offline/weak in the area Picard plastered with his alpha strike.

And the fact is we KNOW at least SOME of the ships ARE the same ships. The Defiant was at the initial battle and she was still there and swinging. And she is explictly said to not be one of the fast Federation capital ships. In one episode to get even to the normal max speed of a TNG era Galaxy, they had to totaly shut down the phasers and divert all the power. The Admirals flagship was still there and was destroyed shortly after the Enterprise arrived (just in time for Picard to take over of course).

So clearly the fleet, at least in part, was keeping up with the cube.

Of course, the cube did impulse its way to Earth, and the first cube took ages to cross the few light years to from Wolf 359. Maybe running from the E-D screwed the cubes power reserves and they had to go slower, who knows.

Possibly. Its also possible the Borg simply don't care about going fast when they don't need to. Planets don't move so they don't need to chase them down or such. They realy motered through the solar system though at impulse.

Also, the Feds engaged the Borg in the 'Typhon sector'. Is this the 'Typhon Expanse'? Thats in some episode, which'd let us find out how far away it is.

The Typhon Expanse was litearly the boarder of the Federation in that sector at the time. The E-D was the first Federation ship to enter that region (well except for the Bozeman of course).

How could the Feds engage the Borg if they were at transwarp?

The cube wasn't at Transwarp. When your going in a Transwarp conduit, your outside realspace. We see this in Descent, Endgame and Dark Frontier. The cube was IN realspace at warp speeds. This is explicite in the FC dialouge from the battle chatter on Starfleets command channel.

Obviously they were going slower than the extreme speeds displayed by the orignal cube.

Wha? The Original cube also moved at standard warp speeds. Transwarp technology didn't occur until Descent, at Conduit to a remote sector of the Federation. The transwarp conduit to Earth didn't appear until Endgame. Its clear the Borg were slowly expanding their Transwarp network over time but hadn't yet expanded it as far as Earth by First Contact. But had by Endgame.

Could this explain why the E-E had enough time to return to Earth?

Probably. The E-E is also the fastest ship in the fleet at that point. In Nemesis it took them only a couple of days to get from Earth to the Romulan Neutral zone and then only a day or so to reach Romulas. At maximum warp, the E-E could probably do it somewhat quicker, dependent on exactly where it was station in the zone of cousre. And warp speeds do appear to have been increasing for some time in the newer Federation ships.

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2003-09-30 11:20am

You won't be able to accurately base the number of ships off of how quickly thy were dying.

1. You don't know how long it took the E-E to get to the battle.

2. The Borg rarely concentrate fire on one target. They have this habit of randomly blasting targets. This means several Federation ships can get pounded equally and then suddenly several of them can go down in a relative short period of time. If you watched the battle in the beginning you would see few if any casualties, but if you watch at the end when the Borg have weakened all the ships hty are fighting you will suddenly start to see lots of casualties. Neither though would be an accurate assessment of the casualty rate of the whole battle.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-09-30 11:34am

MrAnderson wrote:You won't be able to accurately base the number of ships off of how quickly thy were dying.

1. You don't know how long it took the E-E to get to the battle.

No but we can make educated gueses bassed on the times in FC and to a much larger degree Nemesis. Also note that in early TNG, the neutral zone was far enough away from Earth that the subspace relay network couldn't keep up realtime communications. There are plenty of indications that a day to travel back and forth is quite reasnoable.

2. The Borg rarely concentrate fire on one target.

What the heck are you smoking? The Borg typical ROE is ALWAYS to concentrate fire on a single target. BOBW, they target the Battle section to the total exclusion of the saucer. Emessary, they target first the Melbourne then the Saratoga, one after the other. Totaly ignoring each ship until its delt with the first one, then moving on, ignoring other attackers. First Contact. The cube does appear a little more flexable here, but its more a case of each face focusing on a different target, but even then its very limited. The Borg still tended to hit one ship, shift to the next, hit that ship, shift to the next e.t.c. In Scorpion II, in the one big 8472-Borg fleet engagemnet we see, we have individual cubes chasing around individual bioships with total focus.

So tell me, exactly where the HELL are you getting the idea that the Borg "rarely concentrate fire on one target", when just about all the empherical evidence points to the exact opposite?

They have this habit of randomly blasting targets. This means several Federation ships can get pounded equally and then suddenly several of them can go down in a relative short period of time. If you watched the battle in the beginning you would see few if any casualties,

In the begining I counted a Defiant class and an Akira class going down within a few seconds of each other as the Borg focused their attacks on first th Defiant, then that Akira. Funny that....

but if you watch at the end when the Borg have weakened all the ships hty are fighting you will suddenly start to see lots of casualties.

Nope, I saw the rate of casulaties stay preaty damn constent the entire time actualy. Almost like the BOrg were being quite methodical about it all.

Neither though would be an accurate assessment of the casualty rate of the whole battle.

Yes it would. If you had bothered to actualy WATCH the battle and other battles and get evidence, which is clearly something you did not do given taht the evidence preaty much directly opposes your claims. Next.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2003-09-30 12:07pm

MrAnderson wrote:You won't be able to accurately base the number of ships off of how quickly thy were dying.

How often do I have to repeat myself here? I never said this method is going to be exact or precise. I specifically stated this would be a rough guestimate based upon "if this = then this" rationalizing.

1. You don't know how long it took the E-E to get to the battle.

We can most definitely make an educated guess. Picard stated the Federation fleet was going to engage the Borg cube at the Typhoon sector. Data thn replied along the lines of "At maximum warp, it would take 13 hours and <insert minutes here> to reach...". At that point Picard interrupted and said they weren't going.

So we know that the Enterprise was at least 13 hours away from where the battle was going to take place. But instead they wasted time patrolling the Romulan neutral zone, and when they finally did decide to go the battle, the cube had reached Earth, potentially even farther away from the Enterprise's current location. So we have do a solid figure to around work with.

2. The Borg rarely concentrate fire on one target.

Probably because Federation targets get toasted so quickly. If you have seen the first DS9 episode ("The Emissary"), you'd see a Borg cube blow half the saucer off a Federation starship in a matter of seconds. In the beginning of the FC battle we didn't see, we hear what sounds like multiple Federation ships being disabled or destroyed, also within seconds.

They have this habit of randomly blasting targets.

Multiple target acquisition with individual targets being disabled or destroyed within seconds would probably look like randomly blasting targets to the untrained eye. However, semantics is irrelevent. What I'm interested in results and capabilities. And BOBW and FC seem to indicate a Borg cube can obliterate or at least heavily damage multpile Federation targets within seconds.

If you watched the battle in the beginning you would see few if any casualties,

Wrong. We don't see the beginning of the battle. We hear it, and what I heard was a Federation fleet getting it's assed kicked in the first few seconds. Not exactly an arguement of Federation ships only taking light or moderate damage. Countless episodes have Federation ships taking heavy damage and extended fighting with relatively few crew causalties. Yet we hear at least one Federation ship lose at least 67 crew members within the first few seconds of the battle.

but if you watch at the end when the Borg have weakened all the ships hty are fighting you will suddenly start to see lots of casualties.

I heard what appeared to be alot of casualtiles during the beginning of the battle(on that Starfleet channel), and saw ships being blown to bits throughout the visuals we did see. Seemed rather consistent to me.

Neither though would be an accurate assessment of the casualty rate of the whole battle.

Analysing a fictional reality is rarely going to get "accurate" or completly precise results. The best one could do is establish upper and lower limit scenarios, which is what I'm trying to do.

-STTNG "Best of Both Worlds" establishes a single Borg cube can obliterate a fleet of forty Federation ships with apparent ease.

-STDS9 "The Emissary" shows us a Federation ship from BOBW getting it's saucer blown half off within seconds, indicating individual Federation targets are destroyed or disabled quite quickly.

-ST:FC, we hear a Federation fleet take very significant damage and causilties during the first few seconds of the battle, and hours later(at least a couple by my estimation) we see multiple Federation ships destroyed in visuals of short duration.

My conclusion thus far is we can be pretty sure Federation ships were dropping like flies, and based upon that we can use the visuals to make a rough estimate on how many ships were being destroyed on a per time basis, thus giving us a possible fleet size.

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First Contact opening scene battle ship count?

First Contact opening scene battle ship count?

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