How Far Away is the Klingon Homeworld Anyway?

[Gil Hamilton]

OK, on a different message board, there has be some discussion about the Trek show "Enterprise", specifically about contradictions in the show. On thing that has come up is naturally the location of the Klingon homeworld, Qo'nos. In the first episode, they ended up going to the world, to drop off that Klingon and be grunted at by the Big Boss of the Klingons. It was stated to be a 4 day trip at Warp 4. Earlier in the episode, we got told precisely fast Warp 4 is in km/s, not to mention "Earth to Neptune in 5 minutes". I don't recall the kilometers per second number, but Earth can never be more than ~4.54 billion kilometers from Earth, so at best that's ~15.13 million kilometers per second. So that makes the trip to Qo'nos, if the trip is exactly 4 days, it is about ~5.23 trillion kilometers, or a shade over half a lightyear away. Naturally, this number is... unpalpatable. Even if you are extremely liberal with your interpretation, that still makes the Klingon homeworld our next door neighbor.

So what's up with that? It's canon, so you guys can't just throw it away, because of suspension of disbelief*.




*(naturally, I'd call it plain old bad writing, but whenever I evoke that, I get yelled at for not "suspending disbelief").

[Alan Bolte]

I believe it's been suggested that warp factors are not specific speeds but instead only one factor in your actual speed, the other major one being subspace. It was suggested that subspace is much faster in some places than others, and so you can get to Qo'nos really fast, but within sol or for trips elsewhere, you might not get there in half the time.
Not my theory; I can't remember if the concepts of warp travel and subspace were ever well defined in canon.

[Gil Hamilton]

I believe it's been suggested that warp factors are not specific speeds but instead only one factor in your actual speed, the other major one being subspace. It was suggested that subspace is much faster in some places than others, and so you can get to Qo'nos really fast, but within sol or for trips elsewhere, you might not get there in half the time.
Not my theory; I can't remember if the concepts of warp travel and subspace were ever well defined in canon.

Well, they did give a kilometers per second number for Warp 4, so it is a specific speed.

[TheDarkling]

The 1/2 LY is wrong, I would guess a few weeks travel by the time of TNG at warp six, this is just going by the fact that the Federation is able to muster very little in the way of a fleet and send it to Klingon space on short notice yet the distance can be traversed enough that the Ent-D visits the Klingon home world a few times.

Speaking of that other board I am the only one who can't access SB.com or is it down?

[seanrobertson]

OK, on a different message board, there has be some discussion about the Trek show "Enterprise", specifically about contradictions in the show. On thing that has come up is naturally the location of the Klingon homeworld, Qo'nos. In the first episode, they ended up going to the world, to drop off that Klingon and be grunted at by the Big Boss of the Klingons. It was stated to be a 4 day trip at Warp 4. Earlier in the episode, we got told precisely fast Warp 4 is in km/s, not to mention "Earth to Neptune in 5 minutes". I don't recall the kilometers per second number, but Earth can never be more than ~4.54 billion kilometers from Earth, so at best that's ~15.13 million kilometers per second. So that makes the trip to Qo'nos, if the trip is exactly 4 days, it is about ~5.23 trillion kilometers, or a shade over half a lightyear away. Naturally, this number is... unpalpatable. Even if you are extremely liberal with your interpretation, that still makes the Klingon homeworld our next door neighbor.

To nitpick, he said they could get from Neptune and back in 6 minutes at warp 4.5 (24 mil. km/sec., or ~80c). Later, he says that 4.4 is 30 million km/sec., or 100c, so yes, Qo'nos is still closer than Alpha Centauri.

So what's up with that? It's canon, so you guys can't just throw it away, because of suspension of disbelief*.

*(naturally, I'd call it plain old bad writing, but whenever I evoke that, I get yelled at for not "suspending disbelief").

I know I haven't yelled at or spoken crossly to you about that; I was simply defending that approach, since you were all but convinced I didn't "get" the writing/inconsistencies route.

No: I get it, and in many cases I'd very much like to do that (as I'm sure I've noted several times).

If I am going to do it, though, it'd better be absolutely impossible to come up with an in-continuity explanation. As I'm about to, I'll make an effort to find something in the show to rationalize it.

For instance, I'd first explore the possibilities that Archer was simply wrong about one or more figures, which would hardly be without precedent. The guy even claimed that warp 4.4 was faster than warp 4.5.

I'd also compare those figures to the total distance the NX had travelled from Earth, as cited in other episodes. In "Civilization," we learn she's 78 ly away from Earth. According to stardates, 15 weeks had passed since her launch, indicating a minimum of 5.2 ly travelled/week--270.4c.

Also, in "Detained," we learn that at the NX is 5.2 ly away from Archer (must be a new inside joke like "47"), and it picks him up in less than three days, indicating a speed of 1.73 ly/day.

So, I might suggest that Archer was correct on the 4 day mission, since this is mentioned by another crewmember later on in the show. However, he was wrong about the ship's speed, and this "Qo'nos" could be 7.9 ly away.

That's still awfully close, but it's important to note that the planet we see doesn't look much like Qo'nos in TNG. It could simply be a different region of the planet, and the environmental damage incurred by Praxis' explosion might've changed the homeworld's climate.

Or, "Qo'nos" in ENT might be nothing of the sort. The Vulcans believed it was the Klingon homeworld, but on what basis? They might've inferred that from the fact that Qo'nos seemed to be their military headquarters, for example--and we know the Klingons have no bones about relocating their HQ. (Worf tells us Gowron made Ty'Gokor as much shortly after the Federation-Klingon war started in DS9 ["Apocalypse Rising"].) For security reasons alone, it's entirely possible that the Klingons even encouraged outsiders believe the planet in ENT was their homeworld.

And/or, the old TM bit about how spatial conditions affect warp speed might factor in here, as Alan suggested. Just as there are areas of space in which warp travel's impossible or very difficult, there could be rare areas which allow faster than normal warp speed.

You get the idea. I don't find a lot of that terribly convincing, but if nothing else, I do think Archer's km/sec. statement can be dismissed. In a conflict between what's spoken and what's demonstrated (e.g., 78 ly covered in 15 wks.), the latter wins.

[NecronLord]

It's canon, so you guys can't just throw it away, because of suspension of disbelief*.

Yes we can. In many ways we would be justified in calling everything without Gene Rodenberry's name on it, or indeed everything but TOS a derivative work and inferior in standing. We don't because of respect for the statement from the copyright holders, however there is no legal or moral obligation to go with their rules of canon.

[seanrobertson]

It's canon, so you guys can't just throw it away, because of suspension of disbelief*.

Yes we can. In many ways we would be justified in calling everything without Gene Rodenberry's name on it, or indeed everything but TOS a derivative work and inferior in standing. We don't because of respect for the statement from the copyright holders, however there is no legal or moral obligation to go with their rules of canon.

That's not to mention how complicated things would become as a result.

ST canonicity really isn't at the heart of this, anyway--methodology is. Even if one argued that TOS was the highest canon, that's really only relevant if TOS and another, non-Roddenberry show were in conflict.

In this case, a cross-series conflict isn't the only problem. The biggest trouble is that Archer's statements place the Klingon Empire much closer than Alpha Centauri, which infringes upon realism; i.e., where is this nearby star? It also doesn't match what we see and hear later in ENT itself.

In any event, I'd contend that, regardless of its standing to TOS, ENT episodes should be given equal consideration to one another. IOW, that one could argue it's not canon Star Trek doesn't mean it doesn't have its own intra-series continuity.

Look at it this way. Let's pretend Crusade wasn't a part of Babylon 5 canon, but is otherwise the same. Do we not bother to "suspend disbelief" for the purposes of analyzing Crusade technology, if only in the context of Crusade alone?

I should hasten to add, Gil, I'm not trying to break your balls about this. Maybe we should have a separate thread somewhere to discuss what we think is the proper approach to Star Wars, ST et al. This has come up in at least three different threads now and probably deserves its own, lest we further obfuscate the issue(s) at hand.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

everything but TOS a derivative work and inferior in standing.

Technically, ST1 and the first season of TNG are the "most" canon.

[kojikun]

I know how we can rationalize this problem really quickly.. They wre using BRITISH trillions!

10^18 is better then 10^12. That puts the Klingon homeworld oh.. 500000 lightyears away. lol

I know i know! enterprise is stupid, so you can ignore it entirely!

[Agent R]

I believe it's been suggested that warp factors are not specific speeds but instead only one factor in your actual speed, the other major one being subspace. It was suggested that subspace is much faster in some places than others, and so you can get to Qo'nos really fast, but within sol or for trips elsewhere, you might not get there in half the time.
Not my theory; I can't remember if the concepts of warp travel and subspace were ever well defined in canon.

It sounds as if you're talking about "subspace highways". This is a concept I've seen on a few Trek sites to explain why certain travel times and speeds seemed so. . . incongruous. I've even heard this used to explain Voyager's route through the Delta Quadrant: that a subspace highway made it faster to go around the rimward areas of the galaxy rather than a straight line through the core.

[seanrobertson]

I know how we can rationalize this problem really quickly.. They wre using BRITISH trillions!

10^18 is better then 10^12. That puts the Klingon homeworld oh.. 500000 lightyears away. lol

I know i know! enterprise is stupid, so you can ignore it entirely!

The Klingons are extra-galactic? Hmm...I dunno. Maybe

ENT is for the most part pretty damn dumb, but to blow it off on that basis is subjective. There are a number of people who simply hated "The Phantom Menance," but that's no valid basis for them to ignore the events therein (as truly GREAT as that would be on some counts...I enjoyed the film, but Darth Vader as a boy shouting, "Yippee!" annoyed me more than 15 scenes with JJ Binks).

[Gil Hamilton]

It sounds as if you're talking about "subspace highways". This is a concept I've seen on a few Trek sites to explain why certain travel times and speeds seemed so. . . incongruous. I've even heard this used to explain Voyager's route through the Delta Quadrant: that a subspace highway made it faster to go around the rimward areas of the galaxy rather than a straight line through the core.

Well, going through the core of the Galaxy wouldn't be healthy for Voyager. Galactic cores are bastards if modern astronomy is correct.

[Gil Hamilton]

To nitpick, he said they could get from Neptune and back in 6 minutes at warp 4.5 (24 mil. km/sec., or ~80c). Later, he says that 4.4 is 30 million km/sec., or 100c, so yes, Qo'nos is still closer than Alpha Centauri.

Fair enough. I don't have the transcripts, mind you.

I know I haven't yelled at or spoken crossly to you about that; I was simply defending that approach, since you were all but convinced I didn't "get" the writing/inconsistencies route.

No: I get it, and in many cases I'd very much like to do that (as I'm sure I've noted several times).

If I am going to do it, though, it'd better be absolutely impossible to come up with an in-continuity explanation. As I'm about to, I'll make an effort to find something in the show to rationalize it.

I wasn't aware I specifically refered to you. Look around to when someone suggests the real explaination for something, there is generally a bit of hostility in the response.

For instance, I'd first explore the possibilities that Archer was simply wrong about one or more figures, which would hardly be without precedent. The guy even claimed that warp 4.4 was faster than warp 4.5.

I think that would be an inconsistancy on the writers part, would it not?

I'd also compare those figures to the total distance the NX had travelled from Earth, as cited in other episodes. In "Civilization," we learn she's 78 ly away from Earth. According to stardates, 15 weeks had passed since her launch, indicating a minimum of 5.2 ly travelled/week--270.4c.

Also, in "Detained," we learn that at the NX is 5.2 ly away from Archer (must be a new inside joke like "47"), and it picks him up in less than three days, indicating a speed of 1.73 ly/day.

So, I might suggest that Archer was correct on the 4 day mission, since this is mentioned by another crewmember later on in the show. However, he was wrong about the ship's speed, and this "Qo'nos" could be 7.9 ly away.

Fair enough, but then why was Archer lying about the speed of the ship before?

That's still awfully close, but it's important to note that the planet we see doesn't look much like Qo'nos in TNG. It could simply be a different region of the planet, and the environmental damage incurred by Praxis' explosion might've changed the homeworld's climate.

They stated that the Praxis disaster had mucked up the Qo'nos' atmosphere in ST6, I believe.

Or, "Qo'nos" in ENT might be nothing of the sort. The Vulcans believed it was the Klingon homeworld, but on what basis? They might've inferred that from the fact that Qo'nos seemed to be their military headquarters, for example--and we know the Klingons have no bones about relocating their HQ. (Worf tells us Gowron made Ty'Gokor as much shortly after the Federation-Klingon war started in DS9 ["Apocalypse Rising"].) For security reasons alone, it's entirely possible that the Klingons even encouraged outsiders believe the planet in ENT was their homeworld.

I wasn't aware that the Vulcans were stupid. Any spacefaring society is going to be able to be able to tell the difference between a homeworld and a colony world by the lack of pollution, the lack of cities covering the planet and billions of inhabitants. Remember, the Vulcans live in that area of space too and have been in space for centuries. They are going to notice that the world that the Klingons claim is their homeworld is much smaller in population and infrastructure than it should be and isn't the center of their society (after all, the Klingons centralize themselves to a stupidly large amount, remember that the loss of a single moon in ST6 was enough to cripple their Empire).

And/or, the old TM bit about how spatial conditions affect warp speed might factor in here, as Alan suggested. Just as there are areas of space in which warp travel's impossible or very difficult, there could be rare areas which allow faster than normal warp speed.

I've never heard of these "warp highways" ever being mentioned. It sounds like Trekkies made them up.

You get the idea. I don't find a lot of that terribly convincing, but if nothing else, I do think Archer's km/sec. statement can be dismissed. In a conflict between what's spoken and what's demonstrated (e.g., 78 ly covered in 15 wks.), the latter wins.

If it helps, I don't find it convincing either. How can you dismiss Archer's km/sec if you are gung ho about suspending disbelief is odd to me. After all, he can't possibly be stupid enough to become the captain of a ship and not know basic technical details about how fast his ship is or is unable to read a technical readout. They'd have never promoted him if he was that dumb (though to be fair, this is the same organization that someday would give Will Riker a commision...).

[Darth Wong]

I keep saying it: if we simply accept that Trek characters are idiots who spout numbers without bothering to check them first, then all of these continuity problems are resolved instantly.

And don't scoff; real-life creationists are exactly the same way, quite literally spouting numbers that make no sense, have never been fact-checked, conform to no reality, were never calculated, and are in many cases not only impossible, but beyond the realm of possibility by orders of magnitude.

Of course, this implies that Trek characters are as dumb as creationists, but them's the breaks.

[TheDarkling]

I keep saying it: if we simply accept that Trek characters are idiots who spout numbers without bothering to check them first, then all of these continuity problems are resolved instantly.

Not really, the Klingon homeworld being within 4 days travel with a primitive warp drive seems rather to close for Earth not to have been grabbed for the glory of the Empire.

[Darth Wong]

I keep saying it: if we simply accept that Trek characters are idiots who spout numbers without bothering to check them first, then all of these continuity problems are resolved instantly.

Not really, the Klingon homeworld being within 4 days travel with a primitive warp drive seems rather to close for Earth not to have been grabbed for the glory of the Empire.

You're assuming that the old warp drives were really that much slower than the new ones ... based on the numbers spouted by these characters we're talking about

[seanrobertson]

I wasn't aware I specifically refered to you. Look around to when someone suggests the real explaination for something, there is generally a bit of hostility in the response.

Gil, I didn't say you were necessarily referring to me, but we went over something very similar just a week or so ago in that post-"Descent" Borg thread. I also haven't seen many other people talking about such things recently, though I don't claim to have read every thread at the BBS from the last 2 weeks or so.

I think that would be an inconsistancy on the writers part, would it not?

If I went that route, sure, but why the dichotomy? "Either it's the writers that were wrong, or Archer's wrong."

As I've said, I act as if the writers don't exist for analysis purposes. They're no more involved in what Archer says than God dictates what I say.

I realize the writers fucked up, but just as surely, Archer's wrong too. Events in other episodes are testament to that.

Fair enough, but then why was Archer lying about the speed of the ship before?

I didn't say he was lying. I never even intimated that he might be lying, in fact.

I said he was mistaken, which is a good bit different. Someone might've told him the ship was cruising at warp 4, and he might've heard "warp 3."

People make mistakes. Maybe the bastard's dyslexic, or he was just tired when he said that. It doesn't really matter why, just that it is so.

They stated that the Praxis disaster had mucked up the Qo'nos' atmosphere in ST6, I believe.

Never that it had, only that it probably would if something wasn't done.

I wasn't aware that the Vulcans were stupid. Any spacefaring society is going to be able to be able to tell the difference between a homeworld and a colony world by the lack of pollution, the lack of cities covering the planet and billions of inhabitants.

With respects, you are straw-manning me.

I never said that ENT's Qo'nos is a colony of the sort you intimate, nor that it is necessarily newly populated--just that the Vulcans might've presumed that the Klingons' military base was their homeworld which, given even a crude understanding of Klingon culture, isn't such a bad assumption.

Why would that make them stupid? They might not know, as we do, that the Klingon Empire relocates its military headquarters when they see fit. They might've been space-faring for hundreds of years beforehand, but that hardly means they're all-knowing in things Klingon.

Remember, the Vulcans live in that area of space too and have been in space for centuries. They are going to notice that the world that the Klingons claim is their homeworld is much smaller in population and infrastructure than it should be and isn't the center of their society (after all, the Klingons centralize themselves to a stupidly large amount, remember that the loss of a single moon in ST6 was enough to cripple their Empire).

That assumes:

1--This Qo'nos is sparsely populated or developed. Why?

2--This planet can't function as the center of their society. They're warlike. Whereever the military HQ is, there's the center of their empire, just as was the case with Ty'Gokor in DS9 season 5.

I might not've been clear enough, but the alternate "Qo'nos" (Klingon for "homeworld") idea was an effort to try and make Archer's words make a little more sense. I have no idea whether or not it's true, but I cannot simply ignore that possibility.

On a 1-10 scale of importance, I'd put the alt. Kronos thing at 1 or 2. I'd give Archer's verbal misstep a 10.

I've never heard of these "warp highways" ever being mentioned. It sounds like Trekkies made them up.

Does that make the idea any less valid, that Trek fans properly interpreted certain things in the show to indicate a so-called warp highway?

I don't think so. The EU never directly refers to the Endor holocaust, yet I think Curtis' conclusions about as much are spot-on given what happened at the end of "ROTJ."

That's rather beside the point, since Trekkies didn't make that up. The TMs did, as I pointed out: the old TM bit about how spatial conditions affect warp speed might factor in here.

But forget all that for a moment. I have to ask, if Archer's right, do you really think Qo'nos, the Klingon homeworld, is less than one light year from Earth?

I know you don't think that. You dismiss it as writer's incompetence.

So, I don't really get the dilemma. That's "that," you know? There's nothing else anyone can really say unless you want explanations within the canon, none of which you've liked so far.

If it helps, I don't find it convincing either. How can you dismiss Archer's km/sec if you are gung ho about suspending disbelief is odd to me.

How is it not suspending disbelief to recognize when someone's fucked up?
It'd be failing to do so if I blamed Rick Berman (or whoever) for that slip of the tongue.

I actually am suspending disbelief in the realization that these characters are real enough to fuck up.

After all, he can't possibly be stupid enough to become the captain of a ship and not know basic technical details about how fast his ship is or is unable to read a technical readout. They'd have never promoted him if he was that dumb (though to be fair, this is the same organization that someday would give Will Riker a commision...).

Gil, you're jumping the gun here. I'm not saying Archer is necessarily stupid, just that he was mistaken in that case.

I don't like calling characters wrong either, but Mike's right: they consistently make mistakes. Even Spock and Data, who are both lauded by their respective crews for great intelligence, are often on the brink of exploding, they're so full of shit.

And the fact is, whether it's the writer or Archer doing it, making a mistake goes a long way toward explaining what's going on in "Broken Bow."

I choose to say that it's Archer's mistake; you say it's the writers'. That's cool. The result is pretty much the same: the Klingon homeworld isn't a ly or less away from Earth.

[Uraniun235]

IIRC, the TMP novelization says Klingon territory was only four days from Earth at Warp 7.

[Isolder74]

IIRC, the TMP novelization says Klingon territory was only four days from Earth at Warp 7.

That only tell us where the border is. It does not help us find the Klingon homeworld and I doubt that is where we visited in that episode as the planet is way too sparcely populated.

[seanrobertson]

IIRC, the TMP novelization says Klingon territory was only four days from Earth at Warp 7.

I have GOT to find a copy of that sucker. You, Publius, NecronLord and a handful of others have cited things from it.

That's about in line with the film, too. V'Ger crosses Klingon space, blasts the Amar and sister ships, and shortly thereafter is said to be within three days of Earth.

[Publius]

As a matter of fact, the very short distance separating Earth from the Klingon Empire is not new. Chapter Two of The Motion Picture, published in 1979, includes the following:

"Warp seven?" Nothing in the implant alert had suggested this incredible speed -- even the deep-space Klingon Empire was only days away [from Earth] at these velocities!

It is generally accepted that, as of the original series, warp speed is equal to the cube of the warp factor multiplied by the speed of light in a vacuum (W^3 * c); hence, assuming this is correct (and using 299,792,458 metres per second for c), warp seven is equal to 343 c, or approximately 102,828,813,094 metres per second. At this velocity, the Klingon Empire would be somewhere between 1.9 light years and 5.6 light years from Earth (values calculated for two days' journey and six days' journey, respectively).

This of course seems incredible.

Publius

[Lord Pounder]

IIRC i seem to remember a quote saying that the Warp scale has been constantly rescaled as Warp Drives became faster and more efficient. OTOH do with this what you do with the rest of Enterprise, sum it up as bad writting.

[Ted C]

Earlier in the episode, we got told precisely fast Warp 4 is in km/s, not to mention "Earth to Neptune in 5 minutes".

The quoted speed was 30 million kilometers per second, fixing the ship's speed at exactly 100c. Also, it was actually Earth to Neptune in six minutes. Given that it's a round-trip of about 9 billion kilometers, the ship would be averaging about 85c.

So that makes the trip to Qo'nos, if the trip is exactly 4 days, it is about ~5.23 trillion kilometers, or a shade over half a lightyear away.

I get an upper limit of 1.1 light-years, based on Archer's speed statement.

Naturally, this number is... unpalpatable. Even if you are extremely liberal with your interpretation, that still makes the Klingon homeworld our next door neighbor.

So what's up with that? It's canon, so you guys can't just throw it away, because of suspension of disbelief.

The simplest explanation is that Archer is pulling numbers out of his ass, and we should look for more reliable evidence from the show to determine the ship's real speed.

Yes, we know that the real reason is bad writing; I wish we didn't have to mark all their mistakes down to character stupidity, but canon policy requires us to do so.

[Typhonis 1]

hmmm well there is a map of the Alpha and Beta quadrants in the Prime Directive book for GUPS