Generations

[Isolder74]

Imagine the inhabitants of Veridan 2 developing space travel, finding a hadbitable world right next door, then finding a crashed alien ship on it. They scream 'Oh Goody' and tear it apart for technology, or failing that, analyzing the metal so they can make advanced materials. Then they find Kirks corpse and freak out totally.

Starfleet would have stripped all useful components from it (Including Spot) and either tractored it off the surface (which we saw no evidence of, they mighta come back later) or destroyed there and then. I dont think destroying it would have been a good idea, debris may have been left behind, and the friggin huge crater would have raised a few eyebrows from the Veridan 2 people.

The fear of the wreckage being discovered by the people of Veridian IV is somewhat unfounded. According to the population figure quoted by Data, the preindustrial civilisation on planet four is about equivalent to Earth civilisation circa C.E. 650. They would be 1100 years from the discovery of the basic principles of steam power and 1000 years from the telescope. By the time their science progresses to the level of manned interplanetary flight, the wreckage of the Enterprise would have long ago succumbed to exposure from the elements. Fragile materials would have deteriorated to dust and seismic movements and other environmental factors will have reduced the wrecked saucer to a jumble of debris until it would eventually be buried under forest or rock. Kirk's corpse would certainly not survive intact in all that time, especially not in a shallow grave.

By the time anybody from planet four made it to planet three, there would be very little left for them to examine.

We can't assume that this(or any planet) would have the same rate of development as the Earth had. Never discount serindipity. If the planet has some leap in development and sends a viking mision like probe to Veridian 3 there are going to be problens even at viking's resolution level the saucer would show up like a becon. The saucer still being there would alow them to at least study the alloys and give them a massive leap in technology that they would not normally have.

BTW Kirk's body in not a problem.

[Agent Fisher]

The miranda looks like an akira. I must have been mistaken

[Tribun]

The plot of Generations got more holes that we can count. I will try, to count some of them:

-Do we have to laugh about the fact, that the E-B is the ONLY ship near earth? Thats so dumb, I don't even want to discuss it.
-Sorans plan is stupid ans physically wrong.
First, it would definatly not take seconds for a sun to become a black ball of something. The process would take years, even centuries!
Second, they got the thing with the course correction totally wrong. The gravity situation would not change, because the mass of the star not changes (it only became inactive). Only the shock wave can change the course of the nexus. But then, the shock wave already destroyed the planet....
-Only because of thier chief engenieer, they jepodize the lifes of 400 million people? They could simply blow of the BoP and they destroy Sorans base from orbit. (rember Spocks motto from ST II, many over some or a lone one.)
-The battle performance of the E-D was very poor. They don't change the shield frequency and don't even try to fight. The ship is destroyed by a flying scrapyard. Riker and the other lead officers should be courtmartialed for such idiocy.

[Alyeska]

The plot of Generations got more holes that we can count. I will try, to count some of them:

Sure...

-Do we have to laugh about the fact, that the E-B is the ONLY ship near earth? Thats so dumb, I don't even want to discuss it.

Did they say that, or are you assuming it. We already know that Starfleet does NOT keep active ships near Earth. This is evidence in previous ST movies. Furthermore it could very well be the E-B was in the best shape to make the rescue.

-Sorans plan is stupid ans physically wrong.
First, it would definatly not take seconds for a sun to become a black ball of something. The process would take years, even centuries!
Second, they got the thing with the course correction totally wrong. The gravity situation would not change, because the mass of the star not changes (it only became inactive). Only the shock wave can change the course of the nexus. But then, the shock wave already destroyed the planet....

You are making assumptions without taking the observations into account. This is obviously not a standard star explossion.

-Only because of thier chief engenieer, they jepodize the lifes of 400 million people? They could simply blow of the BoP and they destroy Sorans base from orbit. (rember Spocks motto from ST II, many over some or a lone one.)
-The battle performance of the E-D was very poor. They don't change the shield frequency and don't even try to fight. The ship is destroyed by a flying scrapyard. Riker and the other lead officers should be courtmartialed for such idiocy.

Thats just bad writing because Berman wanted the E-D destroyed and he didn't care how.

[Stormbringer]

You are making assumptions without taking the observations into account. This is obviously not a standard star explossion.

No. But as has been pointed out, the laws of physics have been utterly trashed by that scene. Like why light suddenly went FTL for starters.

-Only because of thier chief engenieer, they jepodize the lifes of 400 million people? They could simply blow of the BoP and they destroy Sorans base from orbit. (rember Spocks motto from ST II, many over some or a lone one.)
-The battle performance of the E-D was very poor. They don't change the shield frequency and don't even try to fight. The ship is destroyed by a flying scrapyard. Riker and the other lead officers should be courtmartialed for such idiocy.

Thats just bad writing because Berman wanted the E-D destroyed and he didn't care how.

And knowing that doesn't make the movie work any better, now does it? The fact is they took what could have been a great battle with some real emotional appeal and turned it into an illogical crap-fest.

The writing just plain doesn't make sense, in universe or out.

[Uraniun235]

I want to know where all the mass went from the Veridian star that caused the "gravometric" (I seriously hate the obsession with sticking -metric everywhere) changes to line the ribbon up with the planet.

And, wouldn't the same energies that tear ships apart as they approach also tear people apart as the ribbon approached them?

And, why does no one even mention the core ejection system on the E-D? Did they just plain accept that the damn thing doesn't work at all?

And, how can the ribbon go through the galaxy so often? The universe is awfully big. And if it passes through the galaxy on such a regular basis (the galaxy's awfully big too) then how can it move so slowly as to be approachable by Federation starships?

Although frankly we're lucky we got what we did... the script at one point called for Kirk to be shot in the back, and for trilithium to simply be an "explosive more powerful than anti-matter."

[Sea Skimmer]

And, how can the ribbon go through the galaxy so often? The universe is awfully big. And if it passes through the galaxy on such a regular basis (the galaxy's awfully big too) then how can it move so slowly as to be approachable by Federation starships?

Forget that, given its velocity when it approached the planets surface it shouldn't have been hard pressed to cross a solar system in the movies entire timeframe. The only explanation that comes close to working is there are multiple ribbons that follow the same path and that there velocity radically changes from FTL to hundreds of MPH.

[Darth Wong]

I want to know where all the mass went from the Veridian star that caused the "gravometric" (I seriously hate the obsession with sticking -metric everywhere) changes to line the ribbon up with the planet.

Into subspace. The nether realm where all Trek excuses lie

And, wouldn't the same energies that tear ships apart as they approach also tear people apart as the ribbon approached them?

Of course not. This is Star Trek, where control panels are more dangerous than grenades. Their sense of proportion has never been too good.

And, why does no one even mention the core ejection system on the E-D? Did they just plain accept that the damn thing doesn't work at all?

Actually, I recall that they did mention it: it was "off-line". Sadly, I'm serious.

And, how can the ribbon go through the galaxy so often? The universe is awfully big. And if it passes through the galaxy on such a regular basis (the galaxy's awfully big too) then how can it move so slowly as to be approachable by Federation starships?

It can't have a steady velocity. Of course, that calls into question their ability to predict its course, but the only alternative is just to answer "the writers suck" for every question you pose

[Ender]

And, how can the ribbon go through the galaxy so often? The universe is awfully big. And if it passes through the galaxy on such a regular basis (the galaxy's awfully big too) then how can it move so slowly as to be approachable by Federation starships?

It can't have a steady velocity. Of course, that calls into question their ability to predict its course, but the only alternative is just to answer "the writers suck" for every question you pose

Could be it fluctuates at a known rate, so they can predicte when it will start going at such and such speed, how long that will last, and thus it's new position.

[Patrick Degan]

The fear of the wreckage being discovered by the people of Veridian IV is somewhat unfounded. According to the population figure quoted by Data, the preindustrial civilisation on planet four is about equivalent to Earth civilisation circa C.E. 650. They would be 1100 years from the discovery of the basic principles of steam power and 1000 years from the telescope. By the time their science progresses to the level of manned interplanetary flight, the wreckage of the Enterprise would have long ago succumbed to exposure from the elements. Fragile materials would have deteriorated to dust and seismic movements and other environmental factors will have reduced the wrecked saucer to a jumble of debris until it would eventually be buried under forest or rock. Kirk's corpse would certainly not survive intact in all that time, especially not in a shallow grave.

By the time anybody from planet four made it to planet three, there would be very little left for them to examine.

We can't assume that this(or any planet) would have the same rate of development as the Earth had. Never discount serindipity. If the planet has some leap in development and sends a viking mision like probe to Veridian 3 there are going to be problens even at viking's resolution level the saucer would show up like a becon. The saucer still being there would alow them to at least study the alloys and give them a massive leap in technology that they would not normally have.

Actually, we pretty much can discount serendipity. With a total global population of only 250 million, assuming an Earthlike planet and a roughly similar distribution of land to water and arable land to inhospitible, and a roughly similar distribution of people, population clusters would be located around rivers, coastlines, and fertile growing land. The largest population clusters would reach, maybe, 10,000. There would be no mass-communications; news and information would only travel as fast as any sailing vessel, trade caravan, or mounted rider. Libraries and centres of learning would be few and far between, and consequently, scientific progress will procede at a snail's pace until any area of information exchange improves. If there are no large-scale wars such as the Crusades which actually facilitated Christian/Muslim cultural cross-exchange, or large-scale catastrophes such as the Black Plague which in the end destroyed the feudal system in Europe and its power to retard socioeconomic advancement, social and scientific development on Veridian IV will likely procede at a slower rate than it did on Earth —this leaving out factors such as superstition and religious fanatacism retarding knowledge as "the Devil's work".

Suffice to say, there is about no chance of some "massive leap forward" taking place. Scientific and technological development is an evolutionary process. Always.

The notion of some Viking-type probecraft spotting the wreckage is also unlikely. After however many centuries it will take for the people on planet four to send a probe, the land features would do a lot to obscure the wreck site. The wreckage is not likely to remain intact and in any case is not a large enough structure to be seen from high orbit. Considering that the place where the Enterprise crashed was forestland, which will doubtless overgrow the wreck site after only a few decades, it would not be a good selection for a probecraft landing zone. The people on planet four will look for flat, open ground to send their surface probe.

Finally, even if somehow, someway, the wreckage of the Enterprise were to be discovered and samples of the hull returned to Veridian IV, it will not make a lick of difference if their metallurgical science is not up to the level of producing alloys common to Federation manufacturing. They would not have the means to duplicate the alloy or the industrial base for mass-producing it. The alloy samples would remain laboratory curiosities until their science caught up with them. And this is assuming no corrosive degredation taking place over the course of several centuries which would compromise the samples.

The idea of the "massive leap forward" spurred from discovering alien or futuristic technology is just another sci-fi brainbug with little to no relation to reality. About as likely as Leonardo daVinci being able to build a Stealth-bomber if a time-traveller handed him the blueprints for one.

[Uraniun235]

I would be more worried about Romulan spies learning of the location of said battle and dispatching cloaked ships to effect a salvage operation of their own.

[Isolder74]

I would be more worried about Romulan spies learning of the location of said battle and dispatching cloaked ships to effect a salvage operation of their own.

An it was a secret Romulan base that they found the Trilithium weapon at first. They found some dead Romulons so it would seem natural for them to come and check out what was going on.

[TurboPhaser]

The Enterprise crew obviously stripped all useful components, the only thing the Romulans would find is a big hunk of ship made out of metals no more advanced than their own.

[Isolder74]

One thing that bugged me about Generations was the scene with Soran having his gun to Kirk's head. And Picard has to come in and heroically save him. "If I understand corectally your dead" He said to Kirk and Picard deprived us of Kirk's witty retort to that statement. Something like "then it doesn't matter if you kill me then does it as" all the while Picard is doing HIS job of shutting down the missile. The we get to see Kirk at his best in a drag out fist fight istead og the falling bridge thing.