Useless Treknology

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DarkStar
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Re: Useless Treknology

Post by DarkStar »

Darth Wong wrote: I say again: phase-cloaks, subspace transporters, regular transporters, sensors, and communications: all useless against heavy metals.
False ... for the most part.

Transporters: -Based on a guess only-
I have just scanned your TNG database in reference to regular transporters. Only twice is anything remotely like a heavy metal mentioned. The first instance involved two kilometers of granite (at which point you assumed density had something to do with it, and that heavy metal would be worse). The second involved something called victurium alloy, properties unknown.

Sensors: -Radioactive elements can affect sensors, heavy metals might-
For sensors, the only substances we have definite knowledge about the properties and common densities of would be the actinides and magnesite. The magnesite is sad... they were probably hoping for a made-up name that sounded really magnetic. As it stands, though, we don't know what subspace properties the substance might have, so there's some hope. As for the actinides, these are all radioactive, and we don't know the isotopes being discussed or the concentrations. Furthermore, those were Klingon sensors being discussed.

You claim Riker is unsurprised at the idea of heavy metals interfering with sensors in "Future Imperfect", but as I recall (though it has been awhile), he was well on his way to unmasking the alien boy. Even if your assumption is correct, we do not know what kinds, or in what concentration.

Communications: -no examples of heavy metal affecting comm-
"Silicon Avatar" gives us certain refractory metals that _might_ interfere with communications. However, there was also a giant snowflake eating the world outside, and Riker was using a communicator to contact a ship which was not in orbit, so any level of interference from the refractory metals may not have been anything more than slight. The Vico bulkheads are mentioned as blocking communications, but if the bulkheads of that ship are the victurium alloy mentioned, it is a rare problem indeed.

Other:
There is no evidence to suggest a phase cloak has trouble with heavy metals. There is no evidence to suggest subspace transporters had trouble with heavy metals.
Darth Wong wrote: As for neutronium (a typical red-herring nitpick since the original point does not depend on it; ordinary depleted uranium will do the trick), Star Wars neutronium does not claim to be "solid neutronium". It is described as a metallic matrix impregnated with neutronium, which is consistent with its appearance.
Actually, it is described as a heavy metallic element. It can be found in naturally occurring veins on a moon of Dathomir, just under the surface.
Darth Wong wrote:Star Trek neutronium on the other hand, is obviously not true neutronium because it claims solid non-spherical shapes, and neutronium does not form any shape but a sphere.
Actually, you can get nice "swiss cheese" and "spaghetti" phases of it if you keep it closer to a neutron superfluid (i.e. "impure" neutronium, not as condensed, with some nuclei still kicking).
Darth Wong wrote:Solid rectangular shapes are the result of electromagnetic binding configurations, which are inapplicable to neutronium because neutronium is electrically neutral. Moreover, electromagnetism is much weaker than the nuclear binding force.
No one ever claimed neutronium existed in manufactured form without help.
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Post by Howedar »

TheDarkling wrote: Also you could simple blow up the planetary shield then commence with normal bombardment.
What with? Pansy-ass photon torpedos?
Just because heavy metals may stop it doesnt mean its useless.
Simply as a long range torp delivery system its useful and once the shield around the bridge is down simple beam a few in there where the armour is weak - I have seen calcs putting it between -50% and 66% of Federation armor strength so that shouldnt be a problem and according to the ESB novel the ship was completeley destroyed by the impact.
You are going to down the shield exactly... how? Shoot several thousand quantum torpedos at it, all at once?
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TheDarkling
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Post by TheDarkling »

Can someone clear somethings up for me on the events of hero worship - was it the episode where som weird nebular destroyed a science vessel?

If so where was the ship when they found it?

Was the ship a standadr federation vessel? if so it seem very odd that a science vessel would have better armor than the Defiant which has that ablative armor.

Any info on what ablative armor is made out of?

Thanks.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Howedar: Why not use those small moon affecting bombs from Voyager so many isotons or something like that.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Because of all this talk of Granite blocking transporters I decided to dig out Legacy and watch it.

It doesnt seem that density is the main factor at all since they are able to beam past about 1km of granite thus it seems to be a combination of distance and density - ie the mass (yes I know we only have distance but in the calcs its not signifcant.) that must be transporter through.

Thus do a calculation of what we already know and then if we know the thickness and density of Imps hulls we can determine if an Imps hull would block a normal transporter.

Anyone got those figures?

Anyone I havent finished watching it yet I still have to take a look at this 2km conversation.
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Post by Admiral Piett »

Since I do not know much about physics I ask the following question:is REAL nutronium a stable material out of a neutron star or it needs to be stabilized to avoid to expand itself, damaging the hull of the ship in the process I assume? Because if it requires a strong and active effort then including it in the hull composition is not a great idea.A starship could lose its main energy (battle damage for example) with dangerous consequences and the same construction phase would proabably become very complex and expensive.Further there is no canonical proof that support the presence of real neutronium in star wars ships.The conning tower,or at least a substantial portion of it, of a star destroyer was destroyed by an asteroid.Note that the asteroid was very large,it did not enter from a window like the a wing did but simply impacted a large surface and blew up the structure.Of course it is possible that only the hull was armored with neutronium (bad design in anyway,on a battleships the conning tower is one of the best protected sections,although the bridge of the federation ships is even MORE exposed and vulnerable than on an ISD) but lacking any proof I would dismiss it as an EU boutade.
The hull of star wars ships is obviously made of very very very strong and advanced materials,maybe reinforced by forcefields to help it to withstand accelerations but I think that a material that requires an active effort simply to mantain its state is not a good idea.In case of emergency a ship should be able to survive in the space for some time without much energy available.
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Post by DarkStar »

Admiral Piett wrote:Since I do not know much about physics I ask the following question:is REAL nutronium a stable material out of a neutron star or it needs to be stabilized
Outside the crushing gravitational pressures of a neutron star, neutronium degrades. The only way around this would be to simulate the crushing gravitational pressures of a neutron star. But, if you can do that, you don't need to get neutronium out of a neutron star in the first place.

Also, the bridge tower destruction asteroid collided with a kinetic energy of about 42 terajoules, hitting primarily on the forward port corner of the bridge tower, but also along the side. If there were any appreciable fraction of neutronium in the hull, the ISD shouldn't have even noticed the impact. It would be like a tank turret exploding because of a big piece of hail.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Ok Just finished watching the episode - they have to drill 1.6 km down to penetrate the granite meaning that transporting past 0.5 km of granite is possible - Both ways.

Now since we know that beaming down is easier than up thats figure is probably much lower than that which would stop outbound transport however sticking with the apporx 0.5 figure will do for the moment

Therefore the mass in a - rough esitmate here (1m* 1m * 500 m) * 2600 (density of granite) = 1300000 Kg.

lets divide that by the density of iron to find out how much iron would stop a normal transporter.

1300000 / 7600 = 171 m of iron needed to stop a normal transporter beaming someone from an imperial ship.

Of course something denser is probably in use, lets say lead.

1300000 / 11340 = 144 m of lead needed to block a beam up.

Lets try depleted uranium which is dense by earthbound standards.
Im not sure on the exact figure but I know its approx 1.7 that of lead.

Therefore 144 / 1.7 = 84 m of depleted Uranium will stop the federation transporters beaming up someone.

Now we have no knowledge with which to determine how much easier it is to transport someone in than it is to beam them out so I cant try and figure it out, unless someone has some evidence for me.

Also these figures dont tell us what will stop a subspace transporter which seems to be able to go past more matter than a usual transporter - the longest reported use of a Subtrans is 300 Billion km and a normal Transporter is 50,000 km so as you can see theres a bit of a difference.

If anyone has stats on imp hull structure please hand over the figures :)

Hmm I guess ill await someone to tell me I made a mistake in my calcs.
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Post by Manji »

Heavy metal?

It's been speculated in the past that the standard ST hull plating, duranium, may be the metal we today call depleted uranium.

DU is by all means a heavy metal. Much denser than lead, it is used in the armor of modern MBTs and also used as the penetrator in SABOT armor-piercing rounds.

But transporters have never had a problem with it. So to say that all heavy metals interfere with transporters is clearly false.

Therefore, how can you be sure that the heavy metals employed in SW spacecraft construction will block transporters?
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Post by TheDarkling »

Manji: As per my calcs above it would take a 84 m thick piece of DU to block a transporter (beaming up - which is more differcult any Imp boarding or bombing would involve beaming in which is easier).
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Post by Enlightenment »

DarkStar wrote:Outside the crushing gravitational pressures of a neutron star, neutronium degrades.
Substellar masses of neutronium 'degrade' in roughly the same way a stick of dynamite 'degrades' when it detonates. Any quantity of neutronium not held together by forces similar to those in a neutron star will spontainously explode.
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Post by Howedar »

Manji wrote:Heavy metal?

It's been speculated in the past that the standard ST hull plating, duranium, may be the metal we today call depleted uranium.
Yes, and this all hinges on your assumption that duranium is in fact depleted uranium. There is, at best, only circumstantial evidence to support that.
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Post by Doomriser »

Yeah. 'Cause RL depleted uranium is much tougher than what we see in Trek.
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Post by TheDarkling »

A trek hull takes 12,000k and doesnt get melted - thats some nice thermal properties.
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Re: (sigh)

Post by Crayz9000 »

DarkStar wrote: 1. You're still being silly, because we're not talking about the windows themselves. Your claim is that the entire sections of hull involving windows are weak..
He's quite correct. Leaving spaces in an armored hull for windows weakens that entire section of hulnearl the windows. This also applies to Federation starships, which is why they're such a laughinstock among the Wars community...
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Re: (sigh)

Post by DarkStar »

Crayz9000 wrote:
DarkStar wrote: 1. You're still being silly, because we're not talking about the windows themselves. Your claim is that the entire sections of hull involving windows are weak..
He's quite correct. Leaving spaces in an armored hull for windows weakens that entire section of hulnearl the windows. This also applies to Federation starships, which is why they're such a laughinstock among the Wars community...
I know a window on a surface will weaken it in normal everyday affairs. We're talking about reasonably intelligent spacefaring cultures, though, with the Empire being geared toward war and combat. I find it silly that no one would have compensated for the windows, or removed them entirely in order to protect key personnel. That's the part that astonishes me.
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Post by Doomriser »

TheDarkling wrote:A trek hull takes 12,000k and doesnt get melted - thats some nice thermal properties.
Funny how the hull wasn't glowing like the sun. Maybe in the 24th century, they've 'reinvented' kelvins as well, as they did with 'kilometres.' It might have been 1200 degrees on the hull, that's all.
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Post by Crossover_Maniac »

Doomriser wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:A trek hull takes 12,000k and doesnt get melted - thats some nice thermal properties.
Funny how the hull wasn't glowing like the sun. Maybe in the 24th century, they've 'reinvented' kelvins as well, as they did with 'kilometres.' It might have been 1200 degrees on the hull, that's all.
I would contribute the ship's high temperature tolerance to its shields. Take photon torpedos for example. There is no material in existence that can take ground zero nuclear detonations, but the ship survives this anyway.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Crossover_Maniac: The hulls temperature was at 12,000k (May have been C but it doesnt really matter) so the shields were protecting it from some of the heat but enough got past to heat the hull to that amazing temp.

If you can find somewhere that states (in canon) that this figure is wrong please bring it here.

Is that temp almost beyond belief? yes however unless its contradicted its the temp GCS can take.

Again anyone know the density or thickness of imp Hulls ? either one will do.
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Post by VF5SS »

TheDarkling wrote:Crossover_Maniac: The hulls temperature was at 12,000k (May have been C but it doesnt really matter) so the shields were protecting it from some of the heat but enough got past to heat the hull to that amazing temp.
:x Yes it does matter whether or not its Celsius or Kelvin, there's a big difference between the two.
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Post by TheDarkling »

273 - not really a big diff when we are talking 12,000.
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Post by Crossover_Maniac »

TheDarkling wrote:Crossover_Maniac: The hulls temperature was at 12,000k (May have been C but it doesnt really matter) so the shields were protecting it from some of the heat but enough got past to heat the hull to that amazing temp.

If you can find somewhere that states (in canon) that this figure is wrong please bring it here.

Is that temp almost beyond belief? yes however unless its contradicted its the temp GCS can take.

Again anyone know the density or thickness of imp Hulls ? either one will do.
The hull could be ablative, and the temperature given might have been what was subliminated from the heat that made it pass the shields. I'm just guessing, of course.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Hmm possible - at least you didnt flat out deny it like some people.

Also to everyone out there - I doubt the Vong hot rock is anywhere near 12,000.
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Post by Howedar »

Oh, well if you don't think so, then that pretty much settles it, doesn't it?
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Post by TheDarkling »

Howedar: ??
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